The Prius has no clothes

[Silver Bullet]

The September issue of Car and Driver has a story by one of the columnists about the hidden downside of hybrid automobiles.

To summarize the writers knocks:

1) A Prius owner would have to drive at least 66,500 miles annually for five straight years ... to equal the costs of operating a cheaper, conventional Corolla.

2) Battery pack replacements for Toyota hybrids are $5300; for the Ford Excape hybird, $7200.

3) Nobody has figured out how and where the dead batteries will be disposed.  They are in fact self-contained toxic waste dumps.

4) A number of EMT and fire crews have announced that they will refuse to rescue victims trapped in such vehicles  fearing electrocution or acid burns.

5) There is no real advantage to owning a hybrid in terms of fuel mileage when the extra cost of the vehicle is added in.  Period.  Do the math, according to a dealer of several brands of hybrids.

6) The truth is, although the Prius is selling like mad, hybrid Honda Accords and Civics are backed up on dealer lots.  Why ?  Because they look like conventional Hondas, whereas the Prius has unique styling.  It has an iconic status among the Greenies.  Meaning, the greenies are more concerned with appearing green than actually being green.

Your mileage may vary.

[garyk/nm]

Your mileage may vary.

Absolutely, positively, the best use of this term in the history of the world!!!

[brimic]

I pretty much roll my eyes every time I see one of those on the road.

The car says "I'm socially and environmentally conscious, but I have no brain"

[Silver Bullet]

Absolutely, positively, the best use of this term in the history of the world!!!

Thank you.  That was me, not the columnist.  

[Ben]

Meaning, the greenies are more concerned with appearing green than actually being green.

All too true. If someone wants to buy a hybrid because it's cool technology, or just looks cool to them, or whatever --  more power to them, whatever floats your boat, etc., etc. But please don't try and convince me you're doing it to "save the Earth."

Too many enviros have no idea where different forms of energy come from. They can't see or smell the electricity from the batteries, so batteries must be good. Nevermind the toxic chemical and heavy metal byproducts involved in manufacture and disposal. Hybrid owners will simply end up making nice little concentrated pollution packages in the swapped out battery packs versus smaller, constant amounts of pollution created by fossil fuels (which hybrids are still creating when the gasoline engine kicks in). But hey, as long as those toxic batteries get shipped to Nevada, who cares, right? NIMBY.

[griz]

When Ford came out with the hybrid escape, I was inspired to do some math. I figured over 150,000 miles, the hybrid would need to get 75 mpg to cover the extra cost over the V-6 escape. I was figuring gas at $2.50 (cut me some slack, it was a few months ago and that sounded high at the time) and not counting any difference in resale value. Anybody care to speculate if a big expensive battery would be a plus or a minus on a seven year old vehicle?

[jefnvk]

I was figuring gas at $2.50 (cut me some slack, it was a few months ago and that sounded high at the time)

Whaddya mean?  Gas just broke $2.50 here.

My Cavalier ran just over $10,000 brand new.  Gets 35+ city, 45 or so highway (depending how many police are out ).  Honestly, I can't see much money savings by going to the environut car.

If anything, I'd go to the VW diesel.

[DigMe]

A number of EMT and fire crews have announced that they will refuse to rescue victims trapped in such vehicles  fearing electrocution or acid burns.

I agree with all the other points and I've heard some of them before but I'd like to see a source on that one.  Sounds dubious to me.  In fact it sounds just downright ridiculous.  "have announced that they will refuse to rescue victims?!"  Doubtful.

brad cook

[Preacherman]

[Silver Bullet]

A number of EMT and fire crews have announced that they will refuse to rescue victims trapped in such vehicles  fearing electrocution or acid burns.

I agree with all the other points and I've heard some of them before but I'd like to see a source on that one.  Sounds dubious to me.  In fact it sounds just downright ridiculous.  "have announced that they will refuse to rescue victims?!"  Doubtful.

brad cook

That was a bit of an eye-opener.  The author doesn't indicate his source for that claim.  

My source for the article is Car and Driver , September 2005, page 26, "Brock Yates.  Hybrid issues and a rising star at Indy," column 2, next-to-last paragraph.

[Silver Bullet]

Also, I don't mean this thread as a slam on hybrid cars or their owners.  I thought it might be an interesting starting point for discussion; there are probably folks at this site who are contemplating a hybrid.  There are probably folks at this site who already own one, and it would be illuminating to hear from them too.

[mtnbkr]

A number of EMT and fire crews have announced that they will refuse to rescue victims trapped in such vehicles  fearing electrocution or acid burns.

I agree with all the other points and I've heard some of them before but I'd like to see a source on that one.  Sounds dubious to me.  In fact it sounds just downright ridiculous.  "have announced that they will refuse to rescue victims?!"  Doubtful.

brad cook

Dunno about them not rescuing victims, but they do need special training so they'll know where they can cut the car.  My FIL and BIL are volunteer firefighters and had to take this training.  First responders were getting electricuted when hybrids first hit the road.

Chris

[Guest]

My old 91' Geo Metro from Highschool got better mileage than my mom's prius, all for 1/10th the initial outlay.

(hideous HIDEOUS car though)

[Silver Bullet]

I remember that Metro; I drove one once.  What a tin can !

You couldnt beat the economics, though.  Under $5000 new, and 55MPG on the highway.

First responders were getting electricuted when hybrids first hit the road.

By "electrocuted", you mean dead, or just buzzed ?  Jeez, I never heard about that.  What kind of voltage are these cars developing ?

[Silver Bullet]

To  me, a more interesting concept for alternative fuel vehicle is the idea of using a flywheel at each wheel to store energy.  You would spin it up with electricity, and then the stored kinetic energy would be transformed into mechanical energy as required.  By having the flywheels at each driven wheel you minimize energy losses.

However, one of the drawbacks was also a safety factor.  In the event of a crash, you wouldnt want 100 pound wheel spinning at 10,000 RPM (just making up numbers) running around wild.  It would be something like the Tasmanian Devil on the loose.

[Silver Bullet]

You couldnt beat the economics, though.  Under $5000 new, and 55MPG on the highway.

Actually, you can beat the economics if youre willing to think outside the box    and get a scooter.

[Zundfolge]

I keep saying, Hybrids are a boondoggle!


Hydrogen baby, Hydrogen.

http://www.switch2hydrogen.com/

[Iain]

Hybrids are feelgood interim technology. A friend did these calculations and decided he was better off elsewhere.

How much more expensive is that new hybrid Lexus?

[mtnbkr]

By "electrocuted", you mean dead, or just buzzed ?

I don't recall.  I remember it being a significant safety issue. I'll see them this weekend, if I think about it, I'll ask them.

Chris

[mfree]

hybrid electrocuted would be dead dead DEAD electrocuted, IIRC ~330v at several HUNDRED amps.

[Nathaniel Firethorn]

Good one, Preacherman.

As a side benefit, if more people were able to walk to more of the places they need to go, there would probably be less obesity.

- NF

[Sindawe]

Hybrids are a neat idea, but not really a long term solution IMHO.  Hydrogen is the way to go in the end, and the sooner the better.  I wish the United Nuclear folks (Zundfolge's link)  would publish some info on models and requirements for conversion though.

[Brad Johnson]

I've said it before, I'll say it again. A well designed internal combustion engine running on ethanol is a much better solution. It uses current technoloy, makes little to NO difference in the price vs. current vehicles, and uses a clean-burning, perpetually renewable fuel source.

And that's not including the HUGE additional market it would create for for domestic grain.

Brad

p.s. - and the sound of a big 'ol V8 muscling its way down the road is just a TEENSY bit more gratifying than the Electrolux-style swooosh of an electric.

[mtnbkr]

I've said it before, I'll say it again. A well designed internal combustion engine running on ethanol is a much better solution. It uses current technoloy, makes little to NO difference in the price vs. current vehicles, and uses a clean-burning, perpetually renewable fuel source.
And that's not including the HUGE additional market it would create for for domestic grain.

Doesn't ethanol require more energy to produce than it delivers as fuel?  I think the ratio was 1.29:1 or something like that.

Chris

[Brad Johnson]

Doesn't ethanol require more energy to produce than it delivers as fuel?  I think the ratio was 1.29:1 or something like that.

Dunno, never looked into it. Something to research.....

Brad