Author Topic: The Prius has no clothes  (Read 19736 times)

DigMe

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The Prius has no clothes
« Reply #25 on: August 19, 2005, 06:44:32 AM »
Having special training is different than "refusing to save people."

I've never met a self-respecting first responder who wouldn't attempt to save someone in danger for any reason.

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Brad Johnson

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« Reply #26 on: August 19, 2005, 07:03:33 AM »
Did some quick internet research and found some figures on the net energy content of ethanol. Seems the net-negative figure is a little out of date...

A link to the Nat'l Corn Growers Assoc. site where they are quoted numbers from a recent USDA study. It shows ethanol's net energy content to be significantly positive.

http://www.ncga.com/news/notd/2004/june/060904a.htm

It also stands to reason that a huge new market would create a lot of incentive for research into even more optimized base products (ethanol-optimized corn) and more efficient production methods.

Brad
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Sindawe

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« Reply #27 on: August 19, 2005, 07:27:07 AM »
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I've said it before, I'll say it again. A well designed internal combustion engine running on ethanol is a much better solution. It uses current technoloy, makes little to NO difference in the price vs. current vehicles, and uses a clean-burning, perpetually renewable fuel source.
Does not Brazil use EtOH as a motor fuel for a good portion of their transportation needs?

Hmmm...I wonder if there is a way to feed the fermentation/distilation remains into the systems (plastics/pharmacueticals/fertilizers) that now use oil and other fossil fuels.

Any numbers on the cost of denatured EtOH per gallon? (no way I wanna pay liquor tax on fuel)  How pure does it have to be to burn well over wide ranging conditions?
I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do.

Silver Bullet

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« Reply #28 on: August 19, 2005, 07:38:43 AM »
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Anybody care to speculate if a big expensive battery would be a plus or a minus on a seven year old vehicle?
I, myself,  would consider it a minus; me, personally.  Smiley

When I buy a used car, if it has an automatic transmission Im leery of the cost of overhauling it. If the car has over 100K miles (depending on the car) and the tranny hasnt been redone, I factor that into the cost of the car.  And were talking way less than the $5300 for a battery pack.

Art Eatman

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« Reply #29 on: August 19, 2005, 09:05:23 AM »
Depending on the system, ethanol can be a by-product.  Squeeze the juice from the cornstalks; feed the stalks to livestocks in a feedlot.  A rancher up in east Texas was doing this, back some 25 or so years ago.  The biggest problem was the legal paperwork with BATF(nowE).  Ethanol is booze.

Prickly-pear cactus is also a potential feedstock, which would please a few million or so acres' worth of south Texas ranchers.

Smiley, Art
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Silver Bullet

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« Reply #30 on: August 19, 2005, 09:15:31 AM »
Prickly Pear makes a mighty fine flavoring for margaritas.  Not so sure I like the idea of folks blowing it out their pipes.  Smiley

Paddy

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« Reply #31 on: August 19, 2005, 09:15:44 AM »
SWMBO has a Prius.  It's loaded, got everything imagineable on it including GPS.  Good solid car, good acceleration, quiet and comfortable.  The engine shuts off when you stop for a light, which took some getting used to.  The mileage is decent but disappointing, somewhere in the mid 40's.  The car cost right around $25k.

When my (former) job relocated my work 50 miles from home, I sold my Ford and bought a Toyota Echo. $12k and consistently gets 40mpg, even at the 80mph commute.

I think I got the better deal.

JAlexander

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« Reply #32 on: August 19, 2005, 09:24:53 AM »
Quote from: Art Eatman
Prickly-pear cactus is also a potential feedstock, which would please a few million or so acres' worth of south Texas ranchers.

Smiley, Art
My grandfather used to tell me stories about burning prickly pear in the '20s.  Evidently when the cattle heard the roar of the pear burner, they'd come running.  Somewhere or other I have a picture of one of the ranch hands carrying the rig around with all the cattle standing nearby.  Those were harder people and harder times.  I wouldn't want to carry five gallons of kerosene on my back with a huge open flame out in front of me.

To get back on topic, though, Lockhart used to have an ethanol pump at one of the stations on 183, but it's gone now.

James

Harold Tuttle

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« Reply #33 on: August 19, 2005, 10:42:45 AM »
Hybrid hype, and miscellaneous ramblings.
BY BROCK YATES
June 2005

While the greenies and their flunkies in the so-called major media palpitate over the future of the hybrid, the flinty-eyed analysts at California's J.D. Power and Associates have survey data that indicate a less than twinkling future for this complex and expensive alternative to the hated internal-combustion engine of the elites. The J.D. Power folks, who are usually right on the money in their forecasting, predict that 2006 sales among the proposed 17 hybrid models (cars and light trucks) are expected to total about 260,000 units, or roughly 1.5 percent of the domestic market. J.D. Power claims hybrids will grow to 38 models, both cars and trucks, by 2011 and will peak at a three-percent share. Toyota will hold its lead, with Honda in the hunt and Chevrolet, Ford, and DaimlerChrysler playing relatively minor roles.

Three percent of the total market? Wait a minute! The pundits tell us that hybrids are the futureat least until the fuel cell arrives (at about the same time they discover perpetual motion and cure the common cold).

But one of the most respected, high-powered engineering executives in the industry, speaking off the record, recently told me, "J.D. Power is probably right, although maybe a bit optimistic. Everybody in the hybrid market is losing money. The current units, which are very complex, cost about $5000 more than a normal IC engine. The buyer is paying about a $3000 premium, which means the manufacturer is upside down for about $2000. That, plus the fact that fuel-economy gains are less than people think, what with winter when the heater and defroster are used and summer when the A/C is in operation. Yes, there is a small improvement in city mpg, but it's negligible on the open road. Couple that with the still-undetermined cost of maintenance of the Rube Goldberg power units and the unknown life cycle of the battery packs, and the economic advantages become hazy at best.


"A great deal depends on the future price of gasoline or if the government radically increases fuel-mileage standards. But as it stands now, the average customer is going to stay with a conventional automobile because the mpg cost factor makes obvious economic sense.

"The price of fuel and lower-cost technology will govern the market, and the role hybrids will play remains doubtful at best."

Of course, the know-it-alls in the big media have instant solutions. Example: Newsweek columnist Fareed Zakaria recently touted some supremely woozy technology using "plug in" hybrids with flexible fuel (15-percent petroleum, 85-percent methanol or ethanol) andvoilà! 500 mpg! Zakaria ignores the wallet-busting cost of producing, refining, and distributing methanol, ethanol, hydrogen, and other alternative fuelsa concept that has long since been hooted down by people who understand the harsh realities of energy production. If only these gasbags in the elitist press would do their homework.
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Harold Tuttle

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« Reply #34 on: August 19, 2005, 10:44:23 AM »
Hybrid issues, and a rising star at Indy.
BY BROCK YATES
September 2005

I'm not exactly a betting man, but I'll give you 100 to 1 odds that if you're reading this nonsense you are not a hybrid-car owner. That's probably a good wager, considering that the new miracle vehicles are stuck at about a one-half-percent market share of the roughly 17 million annual new car and light-truck domestic sales and that you are vastly more likely to tear up the asphalt in a gas-swilling, earth-choking, mega-speed road rocket like the rest of us motorized Neanderthals.

Of course, if we pay attention to the Cassandra-like fulminations of the liberal media, we might be led to believe that hybrid vehicles are our only hope to save us all from ozone asphyxiation and indentured slavery to the Arab oil barons. To ignore their PC incantations and to continue our binge buying of conventional internal-combustion engines will, according to these all-knowing scribes and electronic chatterers, doom civilization to a dark age embroiled in a heat-soaked Sahara.

Yeah, maybe. Then again, maybe not. Yes, we understand the feds are giving a one-time $2000 tax credit to hybrid owners, and 16 states are offering come-on tax breaks ($1500 in Oregon, $4173 in Colorado), inspection exemptions, and single-driver use of HOV lanes as incentives.

Moreover, the hybrids being sold by Toyota, Lexus, Honda, Ford, and, soon, Chevrolet are all reasonably priced. Example: The hot-selling Toyota Priuswith a three-month waiting list in most marketscan be purchased for under $22,000 loaded (although most experts estimate that Toyota is taking a $2000 hit on each sale). The PiousoopsPrius costs about $5000 more to manufacture than a conventional Corolla and retails for about three-grand extra.

Now let's jump ugly about the whole situation and talk a little reality. The guys at Edmunds.com, who run hard numbers about the car business as well as anyone, estimate that a Prius owner would have to drive at least 66,500 miles annually for five straight years, or gasoline would have to soar to 10 bucks a gallon, to equal the cost of operating a cheaper, conventional Corolla.


Then we have the battery pack, that heavy lump of nickel-metal hydride juice boxes that presumably improve fuel efficiency (but not that much, according to our road tests). Although the warranties are for eight years or 100,000 miles, battery replacement will cost $5300 for the Toyota and Lexus hybrids, and the Ford Escape replacements run a whopping $7200.

Moreover, the industry types aren't talking about total battery life. Will they actually last 100,000 miles? How will this affect resale value? Will the systems stay at full efficiency, or will they slowly drain power as they age or operate under heavy use? These are questions that remain to be answered, understanding that storage batteries, be they dry cells in your flashlight or exotic Ni-MHs, all have finite lives and store less power with age.

And now comes word that the computer brain inside the gas-electric grids in some Priuses is tending to go nuts. This causes instant blackout stalling at either 35 mph or 65 mphthe latter possibly in the fast lane of an interstate where 50-ton semis running 90 mph can crush compacts like beer cans.

This brings up an undiscussed issue: At some point, all these hybrid batteries will die and have to be disposed of somewhere, somehow. These are hardly biodegradable items like spoiled vegetables. They are in fact self-contained toxic waste dumps. How and where millions of these poisonous boxes will be deposited in the new hybrid nirvana has yet to be considered, much less resolved.

And speaking of the environmental component (the glamour issue centered on the brave new world of hybrids), a number of EMT and fire crews have announced that they will refuse to rescue victims trapped in such vehicles, openly fearing electrocution or fatal acid burns.

As with the now-defunct electric-car miracle, where it was quickly realized that the national power grid could not energize millions of vehicles without massive expansion of horrorsnuclear generationthe dark side of the hybrid miracle is now beginning to surface.

Says a dealer friend whose immense franchise network includes several brands offering hybrids: "There is no advantage to owning a hybrid in terms of fuel mileage when the extra cost of the vehicle is added in. Period. Do the math. This is a feel-good purchase. Hybrids are a statement about the environment, and they simply do not square with economic reality.

"The truth is, although the Prius is selling like mad, hybrid Honda Accords and Civics are backed up on dealer lots. Why? Because they look like conventional Hondas, whereas the Prius has unique styling. It has an iconic status among the Greenies. Like it or not, that's real life."

Until hybrids become economically feasible in terms of cost, reliability, and valid fuel savings and make real sense regarding performance and disposability, we're going to be driving conventional internal-combustion-powered vehicleseither gas or diesel until rogue asteroids clean us all out.
"The true mad scientist does not make public appearances! He does not wear the "Hello, my name is.." badge!
He strikes from below like a viper or on high like a penny dropped from the tallest building around!
He only has one purpose--Do bad things to good people! Mit science! What good is science if no one gets hurt?!"

Harold Tuttle

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"The true mad scientist does not make public appearances! He does not wear the "Hello, my name is.." badge!
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He only has one purpose--Do bad things to good people! Mit science! What good is science if no one gets hurt?!"

Sylvilagus Aquaticus

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« Reply #36 on: August 19, 2005, 11:14:30 AM »
Yes, ethanol is more expensive to produce in terms of energy required to convert corn/grain to ethanol than the end user sees from the combustion of the product.

It does put a lot of money in ADM's pockets, though...and remember, the more ethanol you produce means the higher corn and grain prices go, and the more expensive beef and chicken are. But ADM has more money.

When burned in say, a 2005 multifuel Ford Explorer, which gets 18 mpg on 87 octane unleaded at highway conditions, will produce 11 to 14 mpg on that same gallon of ethanol.  

I used to think ethanol was a good idea 25 years ago.  I changed my mind since then.

Fuel cell technology might be the way to go, unless you end up using gasoline or another refined aromatic hydrocarbon as your hydrogen source.  Then it gets stupid.   Straight hydrogen or even catalyzed water is the most efficient source for fuel cells, unless you have a gas well in your backyard that *you personally own*.  (Actually, I've known folks who did own their own production.)  

Enough of my rant. I need a nap now.

Regards,
Rabbit.
To punish me for my contempt for authority, fate made me an authority myself.
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grampster

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« Reply #37 on: August 19, 2005, 11:27:35 AM »
Well, there are left wing emotional idealogues.  So, why wouldn't there be people who would buy hybrids?

Actually, I am amazed at this thread because I didn't think that there were so many people that actually understood what a stupid idea they are.  A friend and I did the math and considered the battery situation some time back, and we have been laughing ever since.  Sigh...I'm getting too cynical in my old age.

On the other hand, this is APS and there is an elevated intelectual level here.  Must be the Hoppes, gunpowder and appreciation for fine beverages.
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Sindawe

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« Reply #38 on: August 19, 2005, 12:36:20 PM »
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Well, there are left wing emotional idealogues.  So, why wouldn't there be people who would buy hybrids?
Well, my boss's family bought a hybrid.  Why?  I have no idea.

I think the EtOH burning ICE would be a great transitional step toward a fuel cell based mode of transportation, with a H2 burning ICE as the intermediate step while the H2 distribution system gets build out.  EtOH is a liquid fuel, and we are already set up to handle that.
I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do.

Justin

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« Reply #39 on: August 19, 2005, 03:12:48 PM »
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Doesn't ethanol require more energy to produce than it delivers as fuel?
What form of energy doesn't?
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Sylvilagus Aquaticus

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« Reply #40 on: August 19, 2005, 06:28:36 PM »
What form of energy doesn't?


Wood-fired gas generators; common in South America and other places where gasoline was largely unavailable during the rationing days of the 1940's.  Wood gases powered internal combustion engines by means of a gas generation device (which looked like a Rube Goldberg invention) hanging off the rear bumper.

Of course, it helps to live next to a forest.

Regards,
Rabbit.
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brimic

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« Reply #41 on: August 19, 2005, 11:37:30 PM »
The problems with ethanol are numerous:
1: less BTUs per gallon of ethanol than gasoline means you need to burn an awful lot more of it to get from point A to point B
2. It requires petrochemicals in the form of pesticides and herbicides to grow corn.
3. It takes a large amount of energy input to purify ethanol, ie getting the water out of it.
4. It would take a lot more agricultural land to grow enough corn to even make a dent in the amount of gasoline consumed.
5. As it stands, it costs about $27 dollars in taxes to produce a proof gallon of ethanol. Yes, a company can go through a process of paperwork to reclaim the money or the government can repeal or reform the Tax, but we all know how quick and agile the Federal government is when it comes to repealing taxes or reducing paperwork.
6. Points 2,3,4 will have environmentalists squealing like stuck pigs once they connect the dots if they ever do, but it might be worth it just for that reason alone.
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« Reply #42 on: August 20, 2005, 01:48:49 AM »
Oh i cant believe that I forgot to mention this.

Here is where this Hybrid fad starts costing everyone money. The greenies pressured the city of Seattle to purchase hybrid buses for city transit.

The problem is that when you drive a hybrid bus up a hill, the motor is having to turn the electrical chargind system along with pushing the bus, which is heavier than a normal bus due to all the extra crap. Seattle has a *lot* of hills. End result? The hybrid buses got significantly worse mileage than the regular Desiels that they replaced. Oh, and they cost 10 times the price of a regular bus, and we are going to be paying for them for a long time.

Silver Bullet

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« Reply #43 on: August 20, 2005, 05:54:22 AM »
Quote from: c_yeager
Oh i cant believe that I forgot to mention this.

Here is where this Hybrid fad starts costing everyone money. The greenies pressured the city of Seattle to purchase hybrid buses for city transit.

The problem is that when you drive a hybrid bus up a hill, the motor is having to turn the electrical chargind system along with pushing the bus, which is heavier than a normal bus due to all the extra crap. Seattle has a *lot* of hills. End result? The hybrid buses got significantly worse mileage than the regular Desiels that they replaced. Oh, and they cost 10 times the price of a regular bus, and we are going to be paying for them for a long time.
That's what you get when unqualified people are calling the shots.  A preview of socialism:  the "elite" (with no qualifications other than their own delusions of omnipotence) would be making the decisions and the productive worker bees would be doing all the work.

Art Eatman

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« Reply #44 on: August 20, 2005, 06:36:32 AM »
There's a company in Vancouver that's producing hydro-carbon fuel cells.  They allege some 30% better efficiency than conventional IC engines.  Even without the complex H2 fuel-cell systems, 30% is quite a gain.

One big problem is that as a society we're rather unwise as to our investments in transportation.  I'm not interested in laws about this, but common sense says that one's manly prowess in horizontal recreation is not enhanced by driving a 4WD gas hog.

Art
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Paddy

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« Reply #45 on: August 20, 2005, 06:45:49 AM »
I suspect that safety concerns are the driving (pun intended) force behind sales of big behemoth gas hogs.  They tend to hold together better in a crash and provide more protection for the occupants.  But with gas pushing $3 and not likely to stay there, I wonder how much longer these big vehicles will be hot sellers.

Oh yeah, she insisted our Prius have side airbags, too.  Supposedly they will protect you in a t-bone crash, the kind that are so prevalent at intersections.

Waitone

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« Reply #46 on: August 20, 2005, 06:57:21 AM »
I wish people would pay more attention to the life cycle energy usage of a concept before getting doe-eyed over a product.  In my ideal world we would promote the lowest energy lifecycle first.  Years ago 40% of the lifetime energy usage of a car sits in the junkyard.  Might be different now but not by much.
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Sylvilagus Aquaticus

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« Reply #47 on: August 20, 2005, 08:11:28 AM »
It's been my opinion that hybrids are going to be nearly unsellable in the secondary and tertiary market- used cars and later, 'the Working Man's Friend'- note lots and the like.  Just how many do you figure you'll see on the used car lots with 100k miles on them after the batteries are 'out of date'?  And, what would you pay for a used, high mileage Prius (or other hybrid) that needs new batteries to run properly and pass emissions testing, as the batteries are considered, at least in Texas, as a part of the emissions control system?

Great idea, questionable implementation as far as regulations surrounding them.

Regards,
Rabbit.
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Brad Johnson

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« Reply #48 on: August 20, 2005, 08:13:59 AM »
Quote
The problems with ethanol are numerous:
1: less BTUs per gallon of ethanol than gasoline means you need to burn an awful lot more of it to get from point A to point B
Correct. About twice as much. So when gasoline hits $5 a gallon and ethanol is at $2.25-$2.50 it all evens out. That's presuming a relatively similar state of engine tune. Also consider that ethanol, at 115 octane, permits a state of tune that is far more efficient at power extraction than is available for 86-92 octane gasoline.

Quote
2. It requires petrochemicals in the form of pesticides and herbicides to grow corn.
Yep, and it requires several gallons of highly toxic crude oil to produce a single gallon of gasoline. And there are new bio-based pesticides and herbicides being developed as we speak.

Quote
3. It takes a large amount of energy input to purify ethanol, ie getting the water out of it.
It's called distillation, which requires heat. And gasoline takes no energy to produce? Go to a local refinery and check out the HUGE electrical substation feeding it.

Quote
4. It would take a lot more agricultural land to grow enough corn to even make a dent in the amount of gasoline consumed.
Also correct. And the land is already in production. American farmers are wonderfully efficient. So efficient, in fact, that it is cheaper for the govt to pay them to put land into CRP (non-production standby) than it is for the govt to figure out what to do with the surplus commodities that just sit around and spoil. And that's AFTER we've shipped a couple hundred million tons overseas for sale and for humanitarian relief efforts.

All we would be doing, in the beginning, is capitalizing on a surplus we already have. And the HUGE new market would drive up the costs of grain to a point where the small mom-and-pop farm would again become finacially possible.

Quote
5. As it stands, it costs about $27 dollars in taxes to produce a proof gallon of ethanol. Yes, a company can go through a process of paperwork to reclaim the money or the government can repeal or reform the Tax, but we all know how quick and agile the Federal government is when it comes to repealing taxes or reducing paperwork.
Nice figure. Source, please.

Quote
6. Points 2,3,4 will have environmentalists squealing like stuck pigs once they connect the dots if they ever do, but it might be worth it just for that reason alone.
AGREED!! They need a little reality check every now and then.

Brad
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Justin

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« Reply #49 on: August 20, 2005, 08:39:44 AM »
Quote
I wish people would pay more attention to the life cycle energy usage of a concept before getting doe-eyed over a product.  In my ideal world we would promote the lowest energy lifecycle first.  Years ago 40% of the lifetime energy usage of a car sits in the junkyard.  Might be different now but not by much.
Waitone, could you expound on this a some?
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