Author Topic: The Prius has no clothes (Read 19737 times)

roo_ster · « **Reply #50 on:** August 20, 2005, 09:51:33 AM »

Hybrids cars: They are so great they get almost the fuel efficiency of a turbodeisel and have 1/5 the longevity, if if you're lucky.

Ethanol & methanol are not the answer, except as transitional technologies (at best). They only become viable transition technologies when nuke power has blanketed the power grid and small commercial reactors can be directly harnessed to help produce the alcohols. Even then, it still might make more sense to extract the plant oils and burn them in a deisel engine.

Let's face it, unitil Mr. Fusion is found in every auto, petrolium-based fuels are the best bang for he buck, dollar-wise and energy per unit volume or mass-wise.

brimic · « **Reply #51 on:** August 20, 2005, 05:56:36 PM »

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5. As it stands, it costs about $27 dollars in taxes to produce a proof gallon of ethanol. Yes, a company can go through a process of paperwork to reclaim the money or the government can repeal or reform the Tax, but we all know how quick and agile the Federal government is when it comes to repealing taxes or reducing paperwork.

Nice figure. Source, please.

I did a little checking and I had my terms mixed up. Ethanol is $13.50 per proof gallon which comes out to $27/gallon of pure ethanol. I've filled out plenty of forms where I work to document our ehtanol usage in order to reclaim ethanol taxes from the BATFE. http://www.pharmco-prod.com/pages/alcoholintro.html

Gewehr98 · « **Reply #52 on:** August 21, 2005, 11:43:29 AM »

Doesn't biodiesel have a higher energy content in BTU's/gallon than EtOH, with less production energy demands? (leftover McDonald's french fry oil, etc)

Sylvilagus Aquaticus · « **Reply #53 on:** August 21, 2005, 02:33:25 PM »

Yes, Gewehr, it does.

Unfortunately, there has been a thriving vegetable oil recycling business in place for years around here. Makes it difficult for fast-food operators to give away or sell their waste oil to Joe Homediesel since the chain operators have contracts to honor, contrary to what biodiesel proponents say. If you can get Mickey D's to sell it to you, it's going to cost you what they're accustomed to getting from their recyclers, which kind of takes the incentive out of it.

Regards,
Rabbit.

Gewehr98 · « **Reply #54 on:** August 21, 2005, 03:15:09 PM »

Thanks, Rabbit!

I was curious after watching this snippett from CNN today:

http://dynamic.cnn.com/apps/tp/video/us/2005/08/21/grease.car.natpkg.cnn/video.ws.asx?NGUserID=aa54a11-26874-1123880951-1&adDEmas=deReg%3AR00%26deBand%3Ahi%26deDom%3Arr.com%26deSic%3D73%26deCoun%3Ausa%26deDMA%3A534%26deZip%3A32801%26deGMT%3A-4

Talking to a couple of restaurant owners around here, including my favorite raw oyster/buffalo wing bar, they're more than happy to give me their waste fry oil. Appears they're paying the county to haul it away.

Now if I just had an older Mercedes 240D to modify and run the stuff...

Guest · « **Reply #55 on:** August 22, 2005, 05:25:59 AM »

I think there is some real potential with Biodesiel, im not sure that there is enough grease to make it economical or not, but it does seem to be catching on. You can buy it here for between 2.50 and $3 a gallon. And this is all produced by very small operations, it wouldnt take much at all for this to become significantly cheaper than gasoline.

Sindawe · « **Reply #56 on:** August 22, 2005, 06:16:09 AM »

I happened to catch part of Kenneth S. Deffeyes (Author of "Beyond Oil: The View from Hubbart's Peak") last night on CSPAN2, where he mentioned super efficient diesels being developed and deployed in Europe, but not here. In passing, he noted that DME (Dimetheyl Ether) may make a clean diesel fue, since it has no C-C bonds to make soot apon combustion. http://www.greencarcongress.com/dme/ It does have some handling difficulties since its a gas at STP, and there is the issue of it being an intoxicant. MSDS: http://ptcl.chem.ox.ac.uk/MSDS/DI/dimethyl_ether.html

That got me to poking around on the Web last night, looking for more info on H2 vehicles and the like. One site (http://www.ovonic.com/) had a PR video for a Prius they'd converted to run on H2 instead of gasoline in the engine. One passage that struck me in the PR video is that they are working to meet the U.S. Dept. of Energies goal of H2 at the pump for a price of $3.00/kg IIRC.

Tin-foil hat time: I wonder if the rise in oil/gas prices is part of a plan to ratchet up the cost of gasoline beyond $3.00/gallon, then introduce H2 for ICEs (Ford and BMW already have cars for this) at a price below that of gasoline, giving the end consumer the appearance of a price relief in fuel and kick starting a move from oil derivatives as a motor fuel.

Sylvilagus Aquaticus · « **Reply #57 on:** August 22, 2005, 06:42:54 AM »

Y'know, if the technology existed for H2 vehicles or even if fuel cell technology was sufficiently advanced, it's not terribly difficult to electrolyze hydrogen from water using solar energy. Honda has a couple of hydrogen refueling stations in operation in California IIRC based on this. Of course, it's Honda pouring ther R&D dollars into it, but since they have pilot plants, if it were ramped up on a scale....

But then, if I had a home fuel cell from G.E....who incidentally announced 3 YEARS ago they were making one...I could already be making my own electricity at home from the sun. SWMBO and I decided that we're going off the grid when we build out at the farm anyway. A fuel cell/H2 generation system would allow us to make more electricity and probably cheaper than an array of PV's/wind generation system with a battery bank.

Regards,
Rabbit.

Sindawe · « **Reply #58 on:** August 22, 2005, 08:01:56 AM »

APC is making/selling an H2 powered backup power supply for data centers. Not cheap ($50k-$100k) and run on bottled H2, but it is a start. http://www.computerworld.com/securitytopics/security/recovery/story/0,10801,102480,00.html

Guest · « **Reply #59 on:** August 22, 2005, 08:58:47 AM »

Hey, what about coal liquefaction? Forget the environment, I'm talking the price of gas here. The U.S. has huge deposits of coal, and I've read that coal liquefaction breaks even at $35/barrel. The problem (like all other alternative fuels) is the start up costs. Despite consumer outrage, there's not enough certainty in the continued high price of oil to convince investors. I guess?

thorn · « **Reply #60 on:** August 22, 2005, 09:56:23 AM »

There is no real advantage to owning a hybrid in terms of fuel mileage when the extra cost of the vehicle is added in. Period. Do the math, according to a dealer of several brands of hybrids.

you guys jsut dont get it. it isnt about money to the enivronmentalist. it is about burning less fuel.

now the batteries are another story. to some degree they can be recycled contrary to the report.
regular car batteries are recycled all the time.

brimic · « **Reply #61 on:** August 22, 2005, 11:46:54 AM »

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ou guys jsut dont get it. it isnt about money to the enivronmentalist. it is about burning less fuel.

What kind of fuel is that? The gasoline it burns? The coal burned to run the generators needed to produce the electricity to manufacture the car? How about the fuel used to run the foundries to make the steel parts of the car? What about the oil consumed to make the several hundred pounds of plastic on a vehicle?

If driver 'A' buys a Ford Taurus and drives it 180,000 miles before it become economically unviable to keep it running and junks it and you have Driver 'B' who buys a Prius, drives it for 100,000 miles and junks it because its more expensive than its worth to fix, which is actually better for the environment?

thorn · « **Reply #62 on:** August 22, 2005, 01:27:26 PM »

"
If driver 'A' buys a Ford Taurus and drives it 180,000 miles before it become economically unviable to keep it running and junks it and you have Driver 'B' who buys a Prius, drives it for 100,000 miles and junks it because its more expensive than its worth to fix, which is actually better for the environment?"

good point.

they need to get them to last for sure..

the one thing i will point out- yes, fuel will be burned to generate the electricity, but the idea is you centralize the burnng to one highly efficient location, minimizing the smog in the city, keep it at the power plant which is hopefully out in a canyon somewhere. yes yes there are all kinds of probs associated with this but any improvement helps.

what's more efficient ? 100's of tiny generators or one giant one?

for now, the tech still needs work, but is moving in the right direction

Paddy · « **Reply #63 on:** August 22, 2005, 01:55:39 PM »

I don't know that a Ford Taurus (or any Ford for that matter) will go 180,000 miles without some major work. I've owned 5 Fords, and they all needed several thousand dollars worth of repairs before 125k. Toyotas, if maintained, will go 300,000 miles before they're scrap.

The Prius (and I'm not touting the Prius, it's her car not mine) charges its batteries 3 ways- when braking, when going downhill and while the gasoline engine is running. I don't remember what the warranty on the batteries is...7 years seems to come to mind. In any event, I don't think the car will be ready for the junkyard anytime soon.

mordrid52 · « **Reply #64 on:** September 08, 2005, 06:31:24 AM »

A good way to increase fuel efficiency would be to improve the quality of US diesel fuels and bring over some of the smaller diesels they have in Europe. The Mini Cooper TDI gets ~58mpg combined. The Toyota Yaris TDI gets ~68mpg combined. The Volkswagen Lupo 1.2 TDI gets ~78mpg combined and can get over 100mpg on the freeway driven properly (the record is 119 mpg set by a Japanese guy driving around Britain). Even the European VW Golf TDI gets quite a bit better gas mileage than the US version (40 city/59 freeway vs 37/44) and it has 40 more horsepower and more torque.

Silver Bullet · « **Reply #65 on:** September 08, 2005, 07:14:00 AM »

Same cupholders ?

K Frame · « **Reply #66 on:** September 08, 2005, 07:50:07 AM »

Cow farts, folks.

We need to harness cow farts.

Pebcac · « **Reply #67 on:** September 08, 2005, 12:38:40 PM »

I don't see the point in a hybrid, either, but I sure miss my efficient little Echo and its 40MPG. Sad

bountyhunter · « **Reply #68 on:** September 08, 2005, 01:09:35 PM »

The batteries are nickel-metal hydride (not nickel cadmium or lead acid). Not having the EXTREMELY lethal element cadmium means the batteries are not "toxic waste". In reality, standard lead-acid batteries are more dangerous to the environment.

It is true the "hybrid cost adder" means you will not save enough money in gas to offset the cost. Everybody knows that, but some choose to screw the oil companies and OPEC and will pay for that priviledge.

God bless them.

bountyhunter · « **Reply #69 on:** September 08, 2005, 01:11:04 PM »

Quote from: mordrid52

A good way to increase fuel efficiency would be to improve the quality of US diesel fuels and bring over some of the smaller diesels they have in Europe.

Talk about toxic waste.... their emission standards are just shy of "instantly lethal to passing wildlife".

Azrael256 · « **Reply #70 on:** September 08, 2005, 02:19:58 PM »

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We need to harness cow farts.

2lbs. per day of methane, last I heard. I really don't want to be the guy who has to measure that.

I'm no physicist, and I haven't taken chemistry since the 10th grade, but I don't buy this "ethanol is too expensive/inefficient/dangerous/etc." argument. While the energy put into making X number of engine horsepower may be higher than gasoline (or may not, as the case may be), that is still based on present techniques of doing everything. What about progress? How about genetically engineered corn that produces more ethanol per acre? How about specialized farming practices that do the same? How about something more efficient than a standard reciprocating piston engine?

There is WAY too much that remains undone to make a definitive statement as to the effectiveness of fuel X. The only thing we do know for certain is that fossil fuels are not going to be practical forever.

Silver Bullet · « **Reply #71 on:** September 09, 2005, 07:48:44 AM »

Diesels ...

Back in the 80s, certain manufacturers weren't doing as good a job with their diesels as other manufacturers. I remember that when I was driving on a highway, if the vehicle a quarter mile ahead of me was making it tough to breathe back where I was, the vehicle ahead had the following two insignia on the rear of the car about 80% of the time: "diesel" and "Oldsmobile."

Sergeant Bob · « **Reply #72 on:** September 10, 2005, 07:31:08 AM »

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you guys jsut dont get it. it isnt about money to the enivronmentalist. it is about burning less fuel.

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I don't see the point in a hybrid, either, but I sure miss my efficient little Echo and its 40MPG.

I owned a 1983 Nissan Pulsar that got 44 mpg when I drove like an idiot (maniac?) and 50 mpg when I tried to be good.

It was inexpensive, pretty darn peppy, and comfortable. I don't see the hybrids outperforming it enough to make it worth the extra cost and hassle.

Perd Hapley · « **Reply #73 on:** September 10, 2005, 01:22:37 PM »

Quote from: RileyMc

I don't know that a Ford Taurus (or any Ford for that matter) will go 180,000 miles without some major work. I've owned 5 Fords, and they all needed several thousand dollars worth of repairs before 125k. Toyotas, if maintained, will go 300,000 miles before they're scrap.

So my Dad was right! He despises Fords and Dodges and owns only Buicks and Chevrolets. Right now he's rebuilding an engine for my '89 GMC full-size pickup. Well after 300,000 miles, the head cracked. At the same time, my wife's '95 Escort quit, so we got her into a '93 Century. Dad's so proud!

Perd Hapley · « **Reply #74 on:** September 10, 2005, 01:25:11 PM »

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you guys jsut dont get it. it isnt about money to the enivronmentalist. it is about burning less fuel.

No, it is about money. If your more ecological alternative is more expensive, it's not going to be adopted; at least not voluntarily.

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Author Topic: The Prius has no clothes (Read 19737 times)

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Paddy