Author Topic: Russia has sent troops into Ukraine  (Read 11930 times)

MillCreek

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Re: Russia has sent troops into Ukraine
« Reply #50 on: March 02, 2014, 10:58:08 AM »
I wonder if right now the Ukraine government is regretting that whole 'ship the nukes back to Russia' thing.
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Tallpine

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Re: Russia has sent troops into Ukraine
« Reply #51 on: March 02, 2014, 11:02:23 AM »
Reagan is generally credited with breaking up the soviet union.

Obama will be credited with putting it back together  :P
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SADShooter

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Re: Russia has sent troops into Ukraine
« Reply #52 on: March 02, 2014, 03:32:04 PM »
Reagan is generally credited with breaking up the soviet union.

Obama will be credited with putting it back together  :P

Ow.
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RoadKingLarry

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Re: Russia has sent troops into Ukraine
« Reply #53 on: March 02, 2014, 04:19:32 PM »
This ought to put an end to our wasting perfectly good welfare money hitching rides up to the ISS. At least for a little while.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

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tokugawa

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Re: Russia has sent troops into Ukraine
« Reply #54 on: March 02, 2014, 04:30:43 PM »
Yeah, to the above- and anyone know how many troops we have in Afghanistan?

 I was under the impression most of the supplies are coming in from the north from Uzbekistan with Russian compliance rather than through Pakistan?  If the Russians decide to cut off that link would it get dicey?
 Just remembering the story of the British retreat in 1842..........

 

Ben

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Re: Russia has sent troops into Ukraine
« Reply #55 on: March 02, 2014, 04:45:32 PM »
Another blast from the past - "The 1980s are calling..."

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/03/01/remember-obama-mocking-romney-over-russia-concerns-the-1980s-are-now-calling-to-ask-for-their-foreign-policy-back/


And yeah, the ISS situation is gonna be interesting if this goes farther South.
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TommyGunn

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Re: Russia has sent troops into Ukraine
« Reply #56 on: March 02, 2014, 04:53:32 PM »
Reagan is generally credited with breaking up the soviet union.

Obama will be credited with putting it back together  :P
:facepalm:    True, that.    But, still,  :facepalm:
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Waitone

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Re: Russia has sent troops into Ukraine
« Reply #57 on: March 02, 2014, 04:58:24 PM »
Carter did it and now Obama is doing it.  Removing all uncertainty from US foreign policy.  Putin, a Russian chess player, knows Obama will huff and puff and actually do nothing. 

It will be interesting to see if Putin stops in the Ukraine or keeps moving into the Balkans.
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RoadKingLarry

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Re: Russia has sent troops into Ukraine
« Reply #58 on: March 02, 2014, 05:20:44 PM »
Quote
It will be interesting to see if Putin stops in the Ukraine or keeps moving into the Balkans

If he decides he wants it who is there to stop him?
I suspect he can see that the western powers don't have the will or the balls to do anything more than issue a sternly weasel worded condemnation.
Maybe the UN will put a stop to it. :rofl:
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RocketMan

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Re: Russia has sent troops into Ukraine
« Reply #59 on: March 02, 2014, 05:43:27 PM »
Apropos of nothing, I was looking up the definition of 'feckless' in the dictionary the other day and ran across Obama's picture.  When did they start putting presidential portraits in dictionaries?
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Re: Russia has sent troops into Ukraine
« Reply #60 on: March 03, 2014, 10:20:10 AM »
Interesting opinion piece by KT McFarland, who served in security positions under several administrations, on how Obama could sway Putin without using military options. Likely few of the bullet points would fly under the current administration, but they are an interesting approach, especially given the very limited military options (from my armchair quarterback POV) we have that wouldn't walk us into WW3.

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2014/03/03/how-obama-could-stop-putin-ukraine-power-grab-without-firing-shot/

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Tallpine

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Re: Russia has sent troops into Ukraine
« Reply #61 on: March 03, 2014, 10:49:36 AM »
Interesting opinion piece by KT McFarland, who served in security positions under several administrations, on how Obama could sway Putin without using military options. Likely few of the bullet points would fly under the current administration, but they are an interesting approach, especially given the very limited military options (from my armchair quarterback POV) we have that wouldn't walk us into WW3.

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2014/03/03/how-obama-could-stop-putin-ukraine-power-grab-without-firing-shot/

One can dream ....  ;/
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French G.

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Re: Russia has sent troops into Ukraine
« Reply #62 on: March 03, 2014, 10:54:05 AM »
One can dream ....  ;/

One has a better chance of doing legal hits of acid.
AKA Navy Joe   

I'm so contrarian that I didn't respond to the thread.

RevDisk

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Re: Russia has sent troops into Ukraine
« Reply #63 on: March 03, 2014, 11:35:16 AM »
Regarding a new Soviet Union...

Eh, respectfully, not gonna happen. The first time, Germany had done a wonderful job of destroying everything and murdering lots of the locals. The Russians were seen (at least in part) as liberators. They had time to get everything in place to lock everything down and enslave said countries. That's not the case now.

Communism is more or less dead. But Russia can still play the race card, Slavic solidarity and all that. And they do. Serbia, Georgia and now Ukraine. And race trumps political ideology regularly. That's enough to give them a toe in a lot of doors, but it's not the same thing as "war torn wastelands preseeded with lots of your own agents".

Russia wants their own version of the EU, under Russian control. Not quite the same as a new Soviet Union. Too expensive and inefficient. Better to just own all the politicians and stay in power via mafia tactics. Putin wouldn't still be in power if he sent tanks down to the Duma to enforce his will. By killing a couple folks, blackmailing others, paying off others, etc he's built a very decent power base. Think he's going to radically change a very successful strategy for one that's proven to fail?


We could easily check Russia by economic means. That would be the smarter course of action.
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lupinus

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Re: Re: Russia has sent troops into Ukraine
« Reply #64 on: March 03, 2014, 11:53:08 AM »
That is all. *expletive deleted*ck you all, eat *expletive deleted*it, and die in a fire. I have considered writing here a long parting section dedicated to each poster, but I have decided, at length, against it. *expletive deleted*ck you all and Hail Satan.

Balog

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Re: Russia has sent troops into Ukraine
« Reply #65 on: March 03, 2014, 12:53:42 PM »
Russia has issued an ultimatum for tonight (10pm EST). Looks like this is going hot. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26424738#TWEET1060896
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Russia has sent troops into Ukraine
« Reply #66 on: March 03, 2014, 06:39:26 PM »
Regarding a new Soviet Union...

Eh, respectfully, not gonna happen. The first time, Germany had done a wonderful job of destroying everything and murdering lots of the locals. The Russians were seen (at least in part) as liberators. They had time to get everything in place to lock everything down and enslave said countries. That's not the case now.

Communism is more or less dead. But Russia can still play the race card, Slavic solidarity and all that. And they do. Serbia, Georgia and now Ukraine. And race trumps political ideology regularly. That's enough to give them a toe in a lot of doors, but it's not the same thing as "war torn wastelands preseeded with lots of your own agents".

Russia wants their own version of the EU, under Russian control. Not quite the same as a new Soviet Union. Too expensive and inefficient. Better to just own all the politicians and stay in power via mafia tactics. Putin wouldn't still be in power if he sent tanks down to the Duma to enforce his will. By killing a couple folks, blackmailing others, paying off others, etc he's built a very decent power base. Think he's going to radically change a very successful strategy for one that's proven to fail?


We could easily check Russia by economic means. That would be the smarter course of action.



http://reason.com/archives/2014/03/01/vladimir-putin-the-biggest-loser-in-soch


And from the real media, we get this bit of dilettante idiocy:
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/04/opinion/smashing-lenin-wont-save-ukraine.html?hp&rref=opinion
:facepalm:
« Last Edit: March 03, 2014, 06:43:42 PM by fistful »
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Balog

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Re: Russia has sent troops into Ukraine
« Reply #67 on: March 03, 2014, 06:47:41 PM »
Wow, I don't think I've ever seen anything that face palmingly stupid from Reason before.
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If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

Perd Hapley

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Re: Russia has sent troops into Ukraine
« Reply #68 on: March 03, 2014, 06:50:07 PM »
Wow, I don't think I've ever seen anything that face palmingly stupid from Reason before.

Try this one:
http://reason.com/archives/2014/02/28/rand-paul-on-christian-libertarians


I don't know enough about the Ukranian sitchy-ation to judge that article either way. What's your reading?
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Ron

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Re: Russia has sent troops into Ukraine
« Reply #69 on: March 03, 2014, 07:14:27 PM »

Quote from: Balog on Today at 06:47:41 PM
Quote
Wow, I don't think I've ever seen anything that face palmingly stupid from Reason before.

Try this one:
http://reason.com/archives/2014/02/28/rand-paul-on-christian-libertarians

There was nothing stupid about that article.
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Balog

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Re: Russia has sent troops into Ukraine
« Reply #70 on: March 03, 2014, 07:21:17 PM »
I don't know enough about the Ukranian sitchy-ation to judge that article either way. What's your reading?

Ukraine is a false conglomeration of people and geographical entities cobbled together by Stalin. Western parts are strongly anti-Russian, and some areas (Lviv iirc) are former Polish and just generally hate and fear Russia from the Holodomor etc. The Eastern Oblasts (ukie equivalent of states in America) are strongly Russian in ethnicity and social outlook, as Stalin imported Soviet settlers after he slaughtered or force migrated millions of the natives (including Tatars and Cossacks). So it's an unstable region that has no real business as a country, which isn't that uncommon in the way Europe was divided wholesale.  

Ukraine is also beyond vital to Russian interests. Putin would surrender Moscow about the same time he'd let Ukraine (for whatever value of the word you assign) escape his sphere of influence. It's an excellent buffer against the invasion the Russkies believe is always imminent (after Napoleon/Hitler/Sino-Russian wars I don't blame them), it controls the petroleum pipelines to Europe that are all that support them economically, it is the only warm water port for the Black Sea fleet etc. Push came to shove I honestly think they would launch nukes rather than allow the ukies to join NATO.

The writer at Reason posited that this was a loss for Putin, because his puppet fed.gov was deposed. While that's not ideal, Vlad the impaler has conducted a pretty thorough lesson in how to do realpolitik, and made both the US and Eu look like bumbling and impotent losers. He first established a power disparity over the US by pantsing Obama over the Syria mess. He waited until a deal with the EU was all but official then stopped it to demonstrate his power in the region. When the western oblasts got pissy about that, he strolled into the ethnically Russian eastern parts to a hero's welcome. not only does he have the territory he needs now, he did it in such a way as to use Obama's sternly worded letter telling him to not as toilet paper. It's been a clear lesson that the former KGB officer is playing chess and Obama and the EU are eating paste and struggling to remember if they're the X's or the O's in their checkers match. I mean, he even published an Op-Ed in the water carrying, totally in the tank for O NY m-fing Times scolding Obama as an un-Christian war monger! The only way he could've established dominance more is if he'd waited for Obama to bow when they met and then pissed on him.

At this point, anything other than a full scale invasion of a NATO country will be met with nothing more than a series of increasingly sternly worded letters from the US and some posturing from the EU. We're drawing down a military that's already focused far too exclusively on COIN and asymmetric warfare because no one seems to think that having to fight an honest to goodness other country is possible. The EU has no real military capability, and if they start anything Russia will turn off the gas next winter and every cold weather EU country will have rioting in the streets that make the Maidan look like a love in after Grandma freezes to death.
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

Bigjake

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Re: Russia has sent troops into Ukraine
« Reply #71 on: March 03, 2014, 08:19:31 PM »
Ukraine is a false conglomeration of people and geographical entities cobbled together by Stalin. Western parts are strongly anti-Russian, and some areas (Lviv iirc) are former Polish and just generally hate and fear Russia from the Holodomor etc. The Eastern Oblasts (ukie equivalent of states in America) are strongly Russian in ethnicity and social outlook, as Stalin imported Soviet settlers after he slaughtered or force migrated millions of the natives (including Tatars and Cossacks). So it's an unstable region that has no real business as a country, which isn't that uncommon in the way Europe was divided wholesale.  

Ukraine is also beyond vital to Russian interests. Putin would surrender Moscow about the same time he'd let Ukraine (for whatever value of the word you assign) escape his sphere of influence. It's an excellent buffer against the invasion the Russkies believe is always imminent (after Napoleon/Hitler/Sino-Russian wars I don't blame them), it controls the petroleum pipelines to Europe that are all that support them economically, it is the only warm water port for the Black Sea fleet etc. Push came to shove I honestly think they would launch nukes rather than allow the ukies to join NATO.

The writer at Reason posited that this was a loss for Putin, because his puppet fed.gov was deposed. While that's not ideal, Vlad the impaler has conducted a pretty thorough lesson in how to do realpolitik, and made both the US and Eu look like bumbling and impotent losers. He first established a power disparity over the US by pantsing Obama over the Syria mess. He waited until a deal with the EU was all but official then stopped it to demonstrate his power in the region. When the western oblasts got pissy about that, he strolled into the ethnically Russian eastern parts to a hero's welcome. not only does he have the territory he needs now, he did it in such a way as to use Obama's sternly worded letter telling him to not as toilet paper. It's been a clear lesson that the former KGB officer is playing chess and Obama and the EU are eating paste and struggling to remember if they're the X's or the O's in their checkers match. I mean, he even published an Op-Ed in the water carrying, totally in the tank for O NY m-fing Times scolding Obama as an un-Christian war monger! The only way he could've established dominance more is if he'd waited for Obama to bow when they met and then pissed on him.

At this point, anything other than a full scale invasion of a NATO country will be met with nothing more than a series of increasingly sternly worded letters from the US and some posturing from the EU. We're drawing down a military that's already focused far too exclusively on COIN and asymmetric warfare because no one seems to think that having to fight an honest to goodness other country is possible. The EU has no real military capability, and if they start anything Russia will turn off the gas next winter and every cold weather EU country will have rioting in the streets that make the Maidan look like a love in after Grandma freezes to death.

Well said. 

The little bit of meddling we have done,  is just that.  Meddling and of no possible benefit to us.


Perd Hapley

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Re: Russia has sent troops into Ukraine
« Reply #72 on: March 03, 2014, 08:30:19 PM »
There was nothing stupid about that article.


There were some good points made in the article, but the big ole fail is the idea that American Christians are somehow staunch supporters of .gov social welfare programs to feed the poor and house the indigent, and so forth. That's pretty dumb.  :facepalm:
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Ron

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Re: Russia has sent troops into Ukraine
« Reply #73 on: March 03, 2014, 08:38:02 PM »

There were some good points made in the article, but the big ole fail is the idea that American Christians are somehow staunch supporters of .gov social welfare programs to feed the poor and house the indigent, and so forth. That's pretty dumb.  :facepalm:

Not if you lump all Protestant denominations and the Roman Catholic Church together.

Statist Protestants and Catholics are probably a majority of American Christiandom. 
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Russia has sent troops into Ukraine
« Reply #74 on: March 03, 2014, 09:27:25 PM »
Not if you lump all Protestant denominations and the Roman Catholic Church together.

Statist Protestants and Catholics are probably a majority of American Christiandom. 


That doesn't explain it. The headline, and the article itself, talk of "social conservatives." The first few lines establish the idea that everyone thinks that religious faith demands social welfare spending, even though social conservatives are not known for their commitment to such. In fact we're sometimes chastised for this.

The author seems to think that the two people he's quoting speak for all Christians. He doesn't seem to understand that there exist a religious right and a religious left.

So it's dumb.
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