Christianity question

[lupinus]

Actually there have been Christians all throughout history that have held that belief. It is wrong, but scores of people have called themselves Christian yet held that belief. Arians I believe were one I believe.

[Balog]

I know a guy who claims to be libertarian and is all for fed.gov taking money from those evil rich guys and helping out poor folk. I hate relativism...

[Perd Hapley]

Denying Christ's divinity is just out-and-out heresy.  Case closed.  Doesn't make your friend a bad person.  Just means such people aren't Christians, no matter what they call themselves.     That doesn't mean there aren't ordained ministers and "Bible scholars" among that group. 

I believe that passage speaks more to greed and unworthy reception then eating a meal together in fellowship.

That's also how I take it.  The church had a terrible clique problem, which also manifested itself during "love feasts."  I thought I made clear from my tone that I think our denomination is all screwed up in that regard.  They (at least the leadership) literally seem to think it's OK to have a big fellowship dinner type thing outside the church building in a tent on the parking lot, but not inside the building.  Which really wouldn't address the problem that Paul was talking about. 

Balog, my church isn't KJV-only.  KJV-preferred maybe.

[Fjolnirsson]

Personally, I think her problem stems from the feeling that so many pagans have, that words can have whatever meaning you ascribe to them.

Bingo. Christian=believing in Christ. Or, if you will, follower of Christ. At any rate, it's sort of the whole point, you know? Even a filthy, unwashed Heathen like myself recognizes and understands that recognition of Christ and his sacrifice for the atonement of man is the central theme of Christianity.

[jackdanson]

In the name of economy, our church has ixnayed the onutdays.  We rely on pastry donations, nowadays.  I fear that now puts us outside the mainstream of practice.

Ours is all donations too.  See if you have a panera bread in your area, they donate more than we need every week.  It's all bagels and bread that are a day old.  Too old to sell, but perfectly edible.

[Hawkmoon]

Denying Christ's divinity is just out-and-out heresy.  Case closed.  Doesn't make your friend a bad person.  Just means such people aren't Christians, no matter what they call themselves.     That doesn't mean there aren't ordained ministers and "Bible scholars" among that group.

Agreed. If this woman believes in a messiah but does not believe that Jesus is the Messiah, she is totally off-base in calling herself a Christian.

Unfortunately, a great many people (both Christians and non-Christians) fail to understand that "Christ" was not Jesus' last name. Such people call Him "Jesus Christ" and offer prayers to "Christ" without understanding that "Christ" was/is His title -- it's a translation of the word "messiah." Jesus name was Yeshua ben Yosef -- Jesus, son of Joseph. The correct usage of His Biblical identity is Jesus the Christ -- Jesus, the One who was Christed.

So ... "Christ" means (literally) "messiah." Christianity is founded on the belief that Jesus the Christ is the Messiah. Thus, if one does NOT believe that Jesus is the Messiah, not only is one not a Christian, one has just postulated that the very usage "Jesus the Christ" is impossible, which in turn implies that Christianity is impossible.

[roo_ster]

We normally do our Thanksgiving dinner the sunday after, so my father in law can be there. We had a guest this year, who tried arguing that there are Christians who don't believe in the divinity of Christ.

The second section of the Nicene Creed was drafted for the very purpose of (pardon the unintentional pun) nailing down the nature of Jesus.

There are some groups that don't subscribe, but they are outside orthodoxy and playing with heresy dealt with long, long ago. 

[Jamisjockey]

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[a] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

John 3:16

This is what most modern Evangalist Christians believe. 
To be a Christian, you have to believe in the Divinity of Christ AND the trinity, period.  Any religion that doesn't believe in the Trinity and Divinity of Christ, isn't a Christian religion.
The rest of the bible are pretty much semantics and interpretations.
Did I mention, I'm atheist?   

[Perd Hapley]

Unfortunately, a great many people (both Christians and non-Christians) fail to understand that "Christ" was not Jesus' last name.

 Too true.  

Such people call Him "Jesus Christ" and offer prayers to "Christ" without understanding that "Christ" was/is His title -- it's a translation of the word "messiah." Jesus name was Yeshua ben Yosef -- Jesus, son of Joseph. The correct usage of His Biblical identity is Jesus the Christ -- Jesus, the One who was Christed.

Agreed, except with more present-tense.  Jesus is the One who is Christ, i.e., The Anointed One.  This is why millions of people are puzzled by the second instance of the definite article in a certain Mel Gibson film.  


All that being said, there's nothing wrong with calling Him "Jesus Christ," and thinking it's a last name won't keep nobody out of heaven.  

[Perd Hapley]

Did I mention, I'm atheist?

And a booze-fueled paragon of pointless cruelty and wanton sadism besides. 

There was a time when I assumed anyone living in the Western World had at least such basic knowledge of the most prominent organized religion therein, and its scriptures.  So I was more prone to verbally abuse those who made outrageous mis-statements of Christian belief or the Bible.  I have learned that total ignorance and misunderstanding is more the rule than the exception, so I am more understanding these days. 

I took a comparative religions course at my public high school.  I am beginning to think these should be required.  It's pretty basic info for understanding the world. 

[Stand_watie]

    It's important to remember that a lot of people think of themselves as "Christian" as a sort of cultural identity that has nothing to do with their actual belief system (think a huge % of western Europe here), and others think of themselves as "Christian" in believing in following the tradition of good works and social gospel that Jesus espoused (note that I don't believe that was the most important part of what he taught, but rather how we should behave, as opposed to what we should believe, the behavior that Jesus espoused had already been adequately covered by Judaism and several other religions)...Thomas Jefferson was a prominent example of the latter type of "Christian".

[Perd Hapley]

Indeed.

Then there are those for whom Jesus is a "lifecoach."

[Jamisjockey]

He's my favorite hippy....

[Stand_watie]

He's my favorite hippy....

     He might have been a hippy, but he believed in free enterprise, and wasn't a unionist


Matthew 20:1-15 (New International Version)

Matthew 20
The Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard
 1"For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire men to work in his vineyard. 2He agreed to pay them a denarius for the day and sent them into his vineyard.
 3"About the third hour he went out and saw others standing in the marketplace doing nothing. 4He told them, 'You also go and work in my vineyard, and I will pay you whatever is right.' 5So they went.

   "He went out again about the sixth hour and the ninth hour and did the same thing. 6About the eleventh hour he went out and found still others standing around. He asked them, 'Why have you been standing here all day long doing nothing?'

 7" 'Because no one has hired us,' they answered.
      "He said to them, 'You also go and work in my vineyard.'

 8"When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, 'Call the workers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last ones hired and going on to the first.'

 9"The workers who were hired about the eleventh hour came and each received a denarius. 10So when those came who were hired first, they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius. 11When they received it, they began to grumble against the landowner. 12'These men who were hired last worked only one hour,' they said, 'and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.'

 13"But he answered one of them, 'Friend, I am not being unfair to you. Didn't you agree to work for a denarius? 14Take your pay and go. I want to give the man who was hired last the same as I gave you. 15Don't I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?'

[Stand_watie]

Jesus name was Yeshua ben Yosef -- Jesus, son of Joseph. The correct usage of His Biblical identity is Jesus the Christ -- Jesus, the One who was Christed...

     Microbalrog can correct me if I'm wrong about this, but I believe the name "Joshua" and "Jesus" are the same, and the difference came up in translating from Aramaic for "Joshua" (as in the book of Joshua) and Greek for the New Testament. I believe they both mean "he saves".

[Strings]

>Unfortunately, a great many people (both Christians and non-Christians) fail to understand that "Christ" was not Jesus' last name. Such people call Him "Jesus Christ" and offer prayers to "Christ" without understanding that "Christ" was/is His title -- it's a translation of the word "messiah." Jesus name was Yeshua ben Yosef -- Jesus, son of Joseph. The correct usage of His Biblical identity is Jesus the Christ -- Jesus, the One who was Christed.

So ... "Christ" means (literally) "messiah." Christianity is founded on the belief that Jesus the Christ is the Messiah. Thus, if one does NOT believe that Jesus is the Messiah, not only is one not a Christian, one has just postulated that the very usage "Jesus the Christ" is impossible, which in turn implies that Christianity is impossible.<

Ok... going with "Christ" meaning "Messiah" (and nothing more), you COULD argue that the are Christians that don't believe in the divinity of Jesus. However, this starts to bring semantics to the point of migraine territory...

And she doesn't claim to be Christian of any sort: just that there ARE Christians who don't believe in Jesus. Which, to my pagan ind, is just silly.

Of course, it's silly in the way of folks who claim Jesus was Christian himself... (have I mentioned that I've run into some strange folks?)

[Stand_watie]

...
Of course, it's silly in the way of folks who claim Jesus was Christian himself... (have I mentioned that I've run into some strange folks?)

     You can confuse that further by noting that most conservative evangelical Christians consider that

1. Rightous Old Testament folks and Jews who believe in the divinity of Christ are also "Christians", or....

2. That many Christians consider small children, severely retarded people and rightous people who haven't been exposed to the gospel to be "Christians". In fact there has been a lot of scholarly debate on these subjects by the early Christian church.

[Stand_watie]

...Did I mention, I'm atheist?   

     In the words of Stephen King, no devout Christian himself... "
That's okay, (JamisJockey), God believes in you! "

[One of Many]

Deu 16:1  "Observe the month of Abib and celebrate the Passover to the LORD your God, for in the month of Abib the LORD your God brought you out of Egypt by night.
Deu 16:2  "You shall sacrifice the Passover to the LORD your God from the flock and the herd, in the place where the LORD chooses to establish His name.
Deu 16:3  "You shall not eat leavened bread with it; seven days you shall eat with it unleavened bread, the bread of affliction (for you came out of the land of Egypt in haste), so that you may remember all the days of your life the day when you came out of the land of Egypt.
Deu 16:4  "For seven days no leaven shall be seen with you in all your territory, and none of the flesh which you sacrifice on the evening of the first day shall remain overnight until morning.

Exo 12:15  'Seven days you shall eat unleavened bread, but on the first day you shall remove leaven from your houses; for whoever eats anything leavened from the first day until the seventh day, that person shall be cut off from Israel.

Exo 12:19  'Seven days there shall be no leaven found in your houses; for whoever eats what is leavened, that person shall be cut off from the congregation of Israel, whether he is an alien or a native of the land.
Exo 12:20  'You shall not eat anything leavened; in all your dwellings you shall eat unleavened bread.'"

Exo 13:6  "For seven days you shall eat unleavened bread, and on the seventh day there shall be a feast to the LORD.
Exo 13:7  "Unleavened bread shall be eaten throughout the seven days; and nothing leavened shall be seen among you, nor shall any leaven be seen among you in all your borders.

Luk 22:18  for I say to you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine from now on until the kingdom of God comes."
Luk 22:19  And when He had taken some bread and given thanks, He broke it and gave it to them, saying, "This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me."
Luk 22:20  And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying, "This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood.

Wine is a product of fermentation. Wine is leavened by yeast just as bread is leavened by yeast. The passover required ALL leaven to be eliminated, so that would include fermented grape juice or wine as we call it.

The fruit of the vine as indicated in the Book of Luke, would have been unfermented grape juice, not wine, in order for the passover prohibition against leaven to be complied with.

[lee n. field]

     Microbalrog can correct me if I'm wrong about this, but I believe the name "Joshua" and "Jesus" are the same, and the difference came up in translating from Aramaic for "Joshua" (as in the book of Joshua) and Greek for the New Testament. I believe they both mean "he saves".

What we have is "Iesous", in a New Testament written originally in the common Greek of the time.  "Yeshua" or "Yahashua" or whatever is a translation itself, and speculative. There simply ain't no extant "Hebrew original" to any of the New Testament.

It's kind of a hot button of mine.  There's a fringey, often creepy, segment of Protestant Christianity that likes to ape Judaism. 

[Perd Hapley]

     You can confuse that further by noting that most conservative evangelical Christians consider that

1. Rightous Old Testament folks and Jews who believe in the divinity of Christ are also "Christians", or....

2. That many Christians consider small children, severely retarded people and rightous people who haven't been exposed to the gospel to be "Christians". In fact there has been a lot of scholarly debate on these subjects by the early Christian church.

1a.  Righteous Old Testament folks were awaiting the Messiah, correct?  The Christ?  So how would a (New Testament) Christian conclude they are other than Christian?  Given Genesis 3.15, the Hebrew doctrine of the Messiah, and Romans 2.28-29, I don't quite understand how any Christian can study scripture and fail to conclude that a true Jew is a Christian and a true Christian is a Jew.  Of course I (and the Apostle Paul) speak in spiritual terms, not in terms of racial heritage. 

1b.  You have trouble with the idea that Jews who believe that Jesus was divine could be considered Christians?  Am I missing something? 

2a.  Not really.  To say that a child or retarded person is "not accountable" is not to say that they are Christians, merely that God will not hold them accountable for their sins. 

2b.  That's a real stretch.  There are various theories about how God will deal with "righteous people" who have not heard the gospel.  I highly doubt you could pin that position on "most conservative evangelical Christians."

[Hawkmoon]

     Microbalrog can correct me if I'm wrong about this, but I believe the name "Joshua" and "Jesus" are the same,

Yeshua is another way to spell Joshua, just as Yosef is another way to spell Joseph. "Translation" has nothing to do with it. I said that Yeshua ben Yosef meant "Jesus, son of Joseph." Isn't that the same as saying they are the same?

[Perd Hapley]

Ok... going with "Christ" meaning "Messiah" (and nothing more), you COULD argue that the are Christians that don't believe in the divinity of Jesus.

It's not quite that simple.  The creeds are written that way for a reason.  If Christ were a non-divine Messiah, Christianity just doesn't hold together.  And Jesus very clearly declared himself to be God.  That is, it was clear to the people that immediately tried to stone him for saying so. 

Of course, it's silly in the way of folks who claim Jesus was Christian himself...

Not quite that silly.  He is a Christian (or a Jew) in the same sense that Allah is a Muslim.  But, yes, it is as silly as saying that Jefferson was a Jeffersonian.   

[MicroBalrog]

    Microbalrog can correct me if I'm wrong about this, but I believe the name "Joshua" and "Jesus" are the same,

Yes. However, Jews usually refer to Him as "Yeshu", ישו, rather than יהושוע, Joshua, which is His actual name. Some scholars think His name was actually "Yeshua", or ישוע.

What's clear, however, is that His name means eiter "God is the Savior" (if Joshua) or simply "Salvation" (if Yeshua).

[lupinus]

One-

Leaven does not refer to fermentation, they are two distinctly different things. The pass over meal includes ritual drinking of wine, not grape juice.

There is absolutely no biblical evidence that the consumption of alcohol is wrong or that wine was not used to institute the Lords Supper.