Gun shop steals customer's gun and rats him out to the ATF

[HeroHog]

Gun shop steals customer's gun and rats him out to the ATF - when he did nothing wrong!
 
https://youtu.be/A78C5izUJaw?feature=shared

[WLJ]

Just started watching but New Mexico

[HeroHog]

Just started watching but New Mexico

Yeah, but [Deep, dramatic, male, announcer's voice]this could happen to YOU![/Deep, dramatic, male, announcer's voice] 

[WLJ]

Yeah, but [Deep, dramatic, male, announcer's voice]this could happen to YOU![/Deep, dramatic, male, announcer's voice] 

Not what i meant, just NM seems to getting it lately. First Alec Baldwin then this stuff lately.

[HeroHog]

Ah, gotcha

[dogmush]

Man, they get a bunch of the 80% transfer stuff wrong in that video.  At least they have the excuse that neither of them are FFLs.

If I were that kid, >'d price out the Gucci-est build I could.  Arc reactor slide, Radian Comp, nice trigger, titanium pins, SRO, new P80 frame kit, the works. Get that bull and walk into the shop and give the owner three choices:

1. Give me my gun back, and I'll report you to BATFE for transferring  a pistol to someone under 21.
2. Keep my gun, and I'm calling 911 and reporting it stolen from my cell phone in front of you.
3. Buy my gun for the cost of my parts list.

Decide now. No "Give me a bit to figure it out". You stole my *expletive deleted*it, make it right, right now.  Of course I have several decades of practice being a dick on that kid.  At 20, that'd be harder to do.

[Hawkmoon]

Not what i meant, just NM seems to getting it lately. First Alec Baldwin then this stuff lately.

Plus the governor's new "emergency order" banning carry in Aluquerque.

https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=617369

[WLJ]

Plus the governor's new "emergency order" banning carry in Aluquerque.

https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=617369

Covered in the gun control thread

[HankB]

Gun shop steals customer's gun and rats him out to the ATF - when he did nothing wrong!
 
https://youtu.be/A78C5izUJaw?feature=shared

I don't think most gun owners would have left the shop without their gun - I know I wouldn't have. And the police weren't interested in theft of a gun? By a gun dealer?

Something just doesn't ring true about this story.

[zxcvbob]

I commented how this could be resolved and satisfy both state and federal laws and Paul replied back right away that it's not that simple.  It's only complicated because someone wants it to be complicated. 

Now that the FFL has turned the gun over to the police rather than the ATF, Jacob will probably never get it back; a lot of PDs have a policy of never returning a firearm.  I hope I'm wrong about ABQPD.

[Hawkmoon]

What federal laws says the FFL has to put a serial number on the gun? Prior to 1968, LOTS of firearms didn't have serial numbers, and they can be bought, sold, and transferred through FFLs. I don't think he's correct on that.

[K Frame]

"What federal laws says the FFL has to put a serial number on the gun?"

Say what now?

As far as I know, there is no such law. Serial numbering is the responsibility of the manufacturer.

[Pb]

"What federal laws says the FFL has to put a serial number on the gun?"

It is another "rule" the government has invented.

https://news.yahoo.com/federal-rule-requires-serial-numbers-153730007.html

[K Frame]

Well isn't that special.

[Hawkmoon]

"What federal laws says the FFL has to put a serial number on the gun?"

Say what now?

As far as I know, there is no such law. Serial numbering is the responsibility of the manufacturer.

It was stated in the video that the FFL would have to apply a serial number before he could return the gun to the owner -- or enter it into his bound book. I'm pretty certain there is no such requirement in federal law, but there may be one in New Mexico law. That's why I asked the question.

[dogmush]

"What federal laws says the FFL has to put a serial number on the gun?"

Say what now?

As far as I know, there is no such law. Serial numbering is the responsibility of the manufacturer.

It was stated in the video that the FFL would have to apply a serial number before he could return the gun to the owner -- or enter it into his bound book. I'm pretty certain there is no such requirement in federal law, but there may be one in New Mexico law. That's why I asked the question.

Pb answered it, but for complete clarification, that would be 27 CFR 478.92 (a)(2):

Privately made firearms (PMFs).  Unless previously identified by another licensee in accordance with, and except as otherwise provided by, this section, licensees must legibly and conspicuously identify each privately made firearm or “PMF” received or otherwise acquired (including from a personal collection) not later than the seventh day following the date of receipt or other acquisition, or before the date of disposition (including to a personal collection), whichever is sooner. PMFs must be identified by placing, or causing to be placed under the licensee's direct supervision, an individual serial number on the frame or receiver, which must not duplicate any serial number placed by the licensee on any other firearm. The serial number must begin with the licensee's abbreviated Federal firearms license number, which is the first three and last five digits, as a prefix to a unique identification number, followed by a hyphen, e.g., “12345678-[unique identification number]”. The serial number must be placed in a manner otherwise in accordance with this section, including the requirements that the serial number be at the minimum size and depth, and not susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered, or removed. An acceptable method of identifying a PMF is by placing the serial number on a metal plate that is permanently embedded into a polymer frame or receiver, or other method approved by the Director.

Any licensee that comes into possession of a PMF (in any way) must serialize it within 7 days, and must mark it before they get rid of it.

Portions of the rule that amended the CFR to require this are the subject of lawsuits, but I don't think any injunctions have been issued concerning the marking requirements, so this is the current federal law on the subject of homemade weapons and FFLS.

[230RN]

Gee. I thought current federal law was established in 1791.

[Hawkmoon]

Gee. I thought current federal law was established in 1791.

That was handwritten on moldy old paper. Everyone knows it's obsolete.

[WLJ]

That was handwritten on moldy old paper. Everyone knows it's obsolete.

By old white men.

[Angel Eyes]

By old white men.

... north of Richmond.

[Hawkmoon]

And probably CIS-gender old white men, on top of that.

[230RN]

That was handwritten on moldy old paper. Everyone knows it's obsolete.

OK, gotcha.  So now the government can...

(1) Regulate Religion, Speech, Press, Assembly, and Petitioning
(2) Ban guns and anything related to guns.
(3) Stick you with  housing troops
(4) Bust down your door any old time for a search.
(5) Accuse you of anything and keep trying you until you're found guilty
(6) Not allow you any legal representation.
(7) Not even bother with a jury trial.
(8) Use torture and enormous fines as punishment.
(9) Plus, if a right isn't spelled out, it's not a right.
(10) Plus, the States have no rights whatsoever.

All righty, then.  So we're back to 1790.

Terry, 230RN

[HankB]

OK, gotcha.  So now the government can...

(1) Regulate Assign you your Religion, Prohibit free Speech, Run the only authorized Press, Prohibit Assembly, and outlaw Petitioning
(2) Ban guns and anything related to guns. Along with knives, bows and arrows, and heavy beer mugs.
(3) Stick you with  housing troops, government officials, and illegal aliens
(4) Bust down your door any old time for a search. Prosecute you if you have a lock that doesn't work with their key.
(5) Accuse you of anything and keep trying you until you're found guilty, or allow a judge to over rule a jury's acquittal.
(6) Not allow you any legal representation.
(7) Not even bother with a jury trial.
(8) Use torture and enormous fines as punishment.
(9) Plus, if a right isn't spelled out, it's not a right.
(10) Plus, the States have no rights whatsoever.

All righty, then.  So we're back to 179075.

Terry, 230RN

Made a few updates. 

[230RN]

^

Salient points, but I tried to keep it under 100 words.  Could use some syntactic improvements, but what annoys and amuses me is that the source for my list at

https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/billofrights

has an "explanation" after each article.

Now you understand, I did not read the "explanations" but it always struck me that the originals were pretty plain English... especially the second one.  Its brevity alone kinda makes it sound like they really really really meant it.

"What federal laws says the FFL has to put a serial number on the gun?"

Say what now?

As far as I know, there is no such law. Serial numbering is the responsibility of the manufacturer.

This issue might be confused with the requirement that (for a while?) importers of firearms had to put new unique "importer" serial numbers on the firearms they were marketing.  Don't know if that's still the case.

However, there are many firearms (especially from Italy) without any, let alone importer's,  serial numbers out there.  My information is that when Italy wanted to export Carcanos, they re-barreled most of them, and the serial numbers appeared on the barrel instead of the receivers.  However, the Italian gunsmith who did the job did not have new barrels with serial numbers, so went ahead with the replacement.  Therefore, there are many Carcanos out there without serial numbers at all. That was one of the later reasons, I understand, for coming up with the "importer's serial number" requirement.

I did have much of that data linked on an old computer, so that's my recollection, accurate or not, on the "new" serial number requirement.

I'm not sure how this fits in with the OP's reports, but AFAIK, you can build and keep your own firearm without a serial number until you transfer it.  This, I presume, was because of the government's original desire to not inhibit inventions and new developments in the firearms field.

A noble goal, unless you're of the delusional opinion that the whole world will live in peace and love and warm fuzzy contentment for ever and ever and ever and guns will not be needed or allowed.  An idea that should have been universally rejected by any reasoning American on a September morning 22 years and 2 days ago.

Terry, 230RN

NOTE  This inevitably brings up discussion of the Kennedy-Oswald Carcano rifle.  See
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_F._Kennedy_assassination_rifle

EDITED to add "guns will not be needed or allowed."

[dogmush]

To add some context to Terry's post:

This issue might be confused with the requirement that (for a while?) importers of firearms had to put new unique "importer" serial numbers on the firearms they were marketing.  Don't know if that's still the case.

Importers are required to put their name, city and state on the firearm.  They do not need to put a new serial number unless the original serial number does not meet the requirements (size, depth, location)  The Caracanos you mentioned with SN's on the barrels would need remarking still.

I'm not sure how this fits in with the OP's reports, but AFAIK, you can build and keep your own firearm without a serial number until you transfer it. 

Lots of people think this, and the ATF will try and convince you of it, but there is no Federal Law [currently] that requires someone without an FFL to mark their Privately Made Firearm, ever.  You can sell it in a face to face transaction (assuming those are legal in your state) without marking it in any way.  ALL the laws and regulations on marking non NFA firearms only apply to FFL holders.  I'm sure some folks are trying to change that, but ATF seems to think it will require legislation, and given their recent track record on the constitutionality or rules they thought would work without legislation, they are probably correct.

The laws around PMFs are pretty simple actually, but there are a lot of ATF letters floating around with "suggestions" that are worded as requirements, so people get confused unless one does a lot of reading.  For example, almost every FAQ on making, selling, and marking 80% receivers on ATF's website links back to 27 CFR 478.92, but they conveniently forget to mention that reg only applies to licensees.