Author Topic: Calif Fast Food Workers - $20/hr  (Read 3921 times)

charby

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Re: Calif Fast Food Workers - $20/hr
« Reply #25 on: October 04, 2023, 05:45:37 PM »
I’m sure a means besides a minimum wage can be devised to protect such workers.

One a sidenote, regarding those who scream courts can settle it, instead of regulations, I'm dying to see if they change their tune if Trump is found guilty.

I suspect it will be like tariffs are bad, but now they are great because Trump used them.
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cordex

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Re: Calif Fast Food Workers - $20/hr
« Reply #26 on: October 04, 2023, 05:57:39 PM »
on the flipside it also prevents employers from taking advantage of workers too. Think of a mentally disabled person being employed as a dishwasher in a restaurant for less money than what should be paid.

Or what happened in West Liberty, IA at a turkey plant 10 years ago. https://www.nbcnews.com/business/business-news/mentally-disabled-turkey-plant-workers-awarded-240m-years-abuse-flna6c9693069
Iowa didn’t have a minimum wage 10 years ago?
Unfortunately, someone with mental disabilities can often be taken advantage of regardless of laws.

charby

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Re: Calif Fast Food Workers - $20/hr
« Reply #27 on: October 04, 2023, 06:05:17 PM »
Iowa didn’t have a minimum wage 10 years ago?
Unfortunately, someone with mental disabilities can often be taken advantage of regardless of laws.

No, Iowa did have a minimum wage for as long as I can remember, it has been $7.25/Hr since 2009.

Yes, I agree that people with mental disabilities are easily taken advance of, but the Laws from the Fair Labor Act (which included min wage) was the teeth that allowed for compensation and punitive damages to be awarded to those involved.   
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: Calif Fast Food Workers - $20/hr
« Reply #28 on: October 04, 2023, 07:09:04 PM »
It needs to go away entirely.  It has done far more harm than good.  All it really does is price a lot of unskilled workers out of the labor market so they don’t develop actual skills that would make them more valuable.

Yeah, you're right.  In my zeal to de-regulate I fell into the trap of mandating one at all.
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cordex

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Re: Calif Fast Food Workers - $20/hr
« Reply #29 on: October 04, 2023, 07:41:34 PM »
Yes, I agree that people with mental disabilities are easily taken advance of, but the Laws from the Fair Labor Act (which included min wage) was the teeth that allowed for compensation and punitive damages to be awarded to those involved.
From the article you posted the significant issues to me were far less about how much the victims were paid and much more about the abuse they suffered, and the unsafe and unsanitary living conditions they were provided.

I'd also note that while you may have an example of a case where minimum wage provided a windfall to some abused people with mental disabilities, far more commonly people of marginal work value such as the victims in that article are excluded from the workforce entirely because if they can't provide more than a minimum-wage value to the business there is no value to hiring them.  I'm sure yet another government program to pay companies to pay people with severe disabilities would solve that, though.

dogmush

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Re: Calif Fast Food Workers - $20/hr
« Reply #30 on: October 04, 2023, 08:14:07 PM »
It was established in 1938 at $0.25/hr.

$0.25 in 1938 is $5.41 in Aug 2023. So minimum wage has outpaced inflation but more than 30%.  "Somewhere on the internet" is mistaken.

And that's ignoring the very real downsides of a minimum wage.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2023, 08:46:28 PM by dogmush »

Pb

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Re: Calif Fast Food Workers - $20/hr
« Reply #31 on: October 04, 2023, 08:43:25 PM »
on the flipside it also prevents employers from taking advantage of workers too. Think of a mentally disabled person being employed as a dishwasher in a restaurant for less money than what should be paid.


The value of labor is determined by the intersection of what the employer is will to pay and what the worker is willing to accept.  All other values, including those invented by bureaucrats, are fictional.  I don't know what this value is for workers other than by myself, and neither does the government.

When minimum wage is set above the actual value of the labor, unemployment increases, as employers reduce their costs.  They can do this by moving, substituting capital for labor, or by hiring a smaller number of skilled workers to replace unskilled ones. Or, simply, by shutting down.

Laws requiring mentally disabled or other low-skilled people to earn higher wages than they are actually worth will render them unemployable.  A low wage that is on par with skills is better than no wage.

Workers being housed in poor conditions  or otherwise abused are appalling, and minimum wage laws are completely unnecessary to address the issue.  Laws about employment health, safety, and cheating employees are a legitimate function of state governments.  Wage and price controls are not.

charby

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Re: Calif Fast Food Workers - $20/hr
« Reply #32 on: October 05, 2023, 10:02:36 AM »
The value of labor is determined by the intersection of what the employer is will to pay and what the worker is willing to accept.  All other values, including those invented by bureaucrats, are fictional.  I don't know what this value is for workers other than by myself, and neither does the government.

When minimum wage is set above the actual value of the labor, unemployment increases, as employers reduce their costs.  They can do this by moving, substituting capital for labor, or by hiring a smaller number of skilled workers to replace unskilled ones. Or, simply, by shutting down.

Laws requiring mentally disabled or other low-skilled people to earn higher wages than they are actually worth will render them unemployable.  A low wage that is on par with skills is better than no wage.

Workers being housed in poor conditions  or otherwise abused are appalling, and minimum wage laws are completely unnecessary to address the issue.  Laws about employment health, safety, and cheating employees are a legitimate function of state governments.  Wage and price controls are not.

I disagree, we are not a pure capitalist economy, nor will ever be one, ever! Regulation creep has happened since the dawn of our constitutional republic, multiple some ones screwed multiple some ones over and laws were enacted to prevent this from happening. Regulation creep isn't going to be undone in our lives either.

A mentally handicapped person isn't going to be doing high end machining that pays really well, but they can do dishes just as well as someone who isn't mentally handicapped, so why shouldn't they be paid the same minimum wage as the one who isn't handicapped.

Minimum wage type jobs aren't just for the high school kids trying to buy his first car or for retired folks. There are single parents who can't work a regular schedule, people that have mental disabilities, physical disabilities, care givers to elderly or handicapped relatives, etc. Would you rather there be no minimum wage laws and just put all those people on welfare?
 
Right now, currently where I live, there is no need for a minimum wage law because there are more jobs than people to fill the positions, like I said in an earlier post, it's pretty easy to get $15/hr to work at a retail or food establishments. Some of the corporate owned ones are offering hiring bonuses of $500-$1000 if you make it past 90 days with a good attendance record.

In regard to the working conditions in the article I referenced, the handicapped people were employed through a labor agency who provided the handicapped workers to the turkey processing facility. They took the money from the turkey plant and "divided" it up amongst the handicapped workers in terms of reduced pay, and subpar room/board. This was in the local news for months here.

In my younger years, when I worked fast food or retail, there was always a mentally handicapped person or two that worked there. Usually it was a dishwasher, bus boy, custodial, stocker type positions, but they typically worked properly and harder at their job than the other workers doing the same thing.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2023, 11:43:26 AM by charby »
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Pb

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Re: Calif Fast Food Workers - $20/hr
« Reply #33 on: October 05, 2023, 11:38:38 AM »
Charby, I oppose minimum wage laws because, as I said, they are counterproductive.

If the wage is low enough that it is below the actual value of labor (as now in many locations) it has no effect.

If the wage is higher than the actual value of labor, it harms employees by reducing employment. 

https://hbr.org/2021/06/research-when-a-higher-minimum-wage-leads-to-lower-compensation

There is not necessarily any correspondence between the actual value of labor and what a politician says it should be.  The value of labor is determined by the employer and the employee, and the government can't determine that for either of them.  Price controls of any sort are counterproductive rubbish.

As I said, I do not support abusing employees as in was done in the turkey processing plant.

Jim147

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Re: Calif Fast Food Workers - $20/hr
« Reply #34 on: October 05, 2023, 01:27:34 PM »
My daughter was on a school trip yesterday to the California side of MO. Fast food burger, fries and drink. $21 She was not impressed.
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