Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: onions! on May 27, 2014, 09:37:28 PM
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I am,of course,referring to the practice of archaeologists digging people up,photographing,man-handling,cleaning,and boxing up the remains.
I just read this:
http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-27587104
It creeped me out a bit.Then there's the whole having a nail pounded into your jaw thing.
I believe that dead things belong in the ground-not in a box on a shelf.
I wonder how many are ever re-buried?
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How would we know anything about those who went before us unles we dug them up?
And if they are old enough, and from a region far enough away, we can even avoid the emotional mumbo-jumbo about desecration and lack of respect and the rest of that. Seems to me there have pretty much always been two responses to somebody digging up the bones of someone's ancestors: war right then and there; or manufactured outrage in support of some political agenda.
stay safe.
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Just stay out of my yard and we're cool.
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Cool. Iron age dentistry.
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I believe that dead things belong in the ground-not in a box on a shelf.
If it has never been in the ground, is it OK to keep a box of something dead in the house? It's already been cleansed by fire!!! ;)
bob
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Just stay out of my yard and we're cool.
Dude,
You gotta start taking that backhoe a bit farther away from the house. May I recommend construction sites and state campgrounds?
Sure, it's more work, but it keeps the neighbors from being nosey at 2 AM.
stay safe.
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Once you bury them, never dig them back up...that's how you get caught!
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Apologies for possibly being off topic, but I am approaching the subject as if I were the one to be possibly disinterred.
I can only speak for myself and what my family has so far agreed on. For me and mine, cremate and scatter the ashes in the wilderness. I would have no objection to having cows being pastured over me. Barring that, feed me to the fishes.
Cemetaries are not forever, even those promising perpetual care. If I were to be buried, I would not care to be paved over with a parking lot. It would be better that my remains contribute to research. (Perhaps that actually answers the question asked.)
When my mother was young, 1920 and earlier, every year the family had to cross Kansas on dirt roads to tend to Uncle Harry's grave. My mother decided very early on that that miserable duty would not continue with her. Oh, I might add that Uncle Harry died when he was two. Who is caring for that grave now. Is there still a graveyard? If not, what has become of it?
I was with my father when he visited the graves of his great grandparents.
Vandals had broken the headstones. No headstone for me.
My family is widespread including across an ocean. There is no way that a grave could be protected and maintained. The neighbors are certain to object to a platform burial even though I have a suitable tree. An unmarked grave in the wilderness is probably illegal. All that is left is cremation after what can be learned from my remains has been learned.
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Once you bury them, never dig them back up...that's how you get caught!
"We got a problem, that thing we took care of upstate? Well, we gotta dig him up again. The guy just sold the property. They're gonna build condominiums and I don't want anybody digging up the little bastard."
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1.ytimg.com%2Fvi%2Fn_W7DvKlsks%2Fhqdefault.jpg&hash=5036b564c3c6366c29553d834099e6716aa5f843)
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My family is widespread including across an ocean. There is no way that a grave could be protected and maintained. The neighbors are certain to object to a platform burial even though I have a suitable tree. An unmarked grave in the wilderness is probably illegal. All that is left is cremation after what can be learned from my remains has been learned.
Dermestid beetles and a euro mount?
Or maybe a season or two in the compost pile and bone recovery after the fact?
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Dermestid beetles and a euro mount?
Or maybe a season or two in the compost pile and bone recovery after the fact?
Feed the hogs . . .
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I have no issues with digging up the remains of he dead. They are gone. The bodies that birthed them have ceased to hold their consciousness and no longer can be called "them".
On the other hand I do not want to be cremated. My preference is for my DNA and physical composition to naturally return to the earth. Destroying all the various elements we are comprised of by fire seems a waste. I'd like to let the elements return to the earth.
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I have no issues with digging up the remains of he dead. They are gone. The bodies that birthed them have ceased to hold their consciousness and no longer can be called "them".
On the other hand I do not want to be cremated. My preference is for my DNA and physical composition to naturally return to the earth. Destroying all the various elements we are comprised of by fire seems a waste. I'd like to let the elements return to the earth.
They will, either way.
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They will, either way.
Plants got to eat, same as the bacteria.
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I don't really have a problem with it for archeological sites. Besides, how can archeologists get to other informative artifacts without disturbing the bodies? And in cases like the famous dust-encased bodies of the Pompeiian eruption (Vesuvius), they never had a proper burial, but now many have been removed from the site and have "perpetual" homage paid to them.
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mummytombs.com%2Fpompeii%2Fcast.stabian.bw.jpg&hash=44c258275a019421b3bfa0b62a9938d020cac492)
(More:
http://www.mummytombs.com/pompeii/background.htm)
And for the Peat Bog Bodies, many of them were just tossed into the bog without ceremony. When we find them now (which is fairly often, since peat is used as a fuel), removal of the bodies is necessary and has resulted in increased knowledge of the times surrounding their deaths. And like the Pompeiian mummies, perhaps greater honor is given to them by display, rather than just being forgotten in the randomness of the peat bogs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bog_body
Same goes for Ötzi the Iceman, whose preserved body was found in the frozen alps. We learned a lot from him. And at least now he has a name again.
And he's even famous.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%96tzi
For those buried in consecrated (according to the religion) ground, I'd prefer they be left alone, but that also depends on the time interval. And certain known ancient burial sites are in fact left alone.
Cheesman Park in Denver used to be a cemetery. They dug up and moved most of the bodies, but could not find all of them. This, to me, is mildly disturbing, and not for "spooky" reasons.
For myself, I'm a total organ donor, and I amuse myself with the thought that my bony parts might be reassembled into an instructional skeleton and wheeled around from day to day to various classrooms of the University of Colorado Medical Center. Any remains left from the dissection can be cremated and scattered over my old favorite squirrel hunting ground.
Hi, guys!
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.paramedic-resource.co.uk%2Fimg%2Fanatomical-skeleton-model-w-stand-for-medical-school-learning-aid-anatomy-class-l_3649_500.jpg&hash=fe9920a7067bb866586e2e11602cf545e0233c8e), 230RN >:D
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Hmmmm... I guess it depends on the culture being studied.
Eygptions would consider being exhumed sacriledgous. Their tombs even had traps and tricks to foil robbers.
Greeks, on the other hand, considered being remembered most important. I would think that, if you could ask one who just got dug up, that they would think their new impact on humanity would be an honor.
Regardless, I think the ultimate benifit to us overall from what we learn about our ancestors is more important then touchy questions over the morals of studying dead people from an ancient world.
Sometimes I kind of wonder what future archologists will think of us when they start digging up our remains. Usually, I have this thought when I head out to the farm. =D I think all the dogs will confuse them. *chuckle*
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And in cases like the famous dust-encased bodies of the Pompeiian eruption (Vesuvius), they never had a proper burial, but now many have been removed from the site and have "perpetual" homage paid to them.
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mummytombs.com%2Fpompeii%2Fcast.stabian.bw.jpg&hash=44c258275a019421b3bfa0b62a9938d020cac492)
Actually, my understanding is that what you see are not bodies but plaster casts of voids left over after the bodies broke down. When the archaeologists started digging at Pompeii, one noticed unexpected cavities and tried filling it with plaster.
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Hmmmm... I guess it depends on the culture being studied.
Eygptions would consider being exhumed sacriledgous. Their tombs even had traps and tricks to foil robbers.
wouldn't that be only for their elite "gods"?
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roo_ster and HankB —
Good suggestions. Euro mount for display by whom and for what reason? The demand must be limited. 230RN's suggest also has merit, but I am a bit shy.
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There's a part of me that would like to be buried with some interesting items...a sidearm, a knife, a law book, and some odd items...a ladle, or a whisk, a video game controller, an iPod, a socket wrench, etc., so that some day if someone digs me up, I drive them crazy wondering what the Hell all of that stuff means.
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^
They'll probably think they're religious artifacts and you'll be put in a museum as a high-mucky-muck religious leader of the time and they'll ship you all over the world as an exhibition and get lots of whatever passes for money.
And you won't see a dime (or whatever passes for a dime) from it.
Long time ago someone wrote a future-fantasy story of how an ordinary kids' toy from today was dug up and these future archeologists had a furious worldwide intellectual academic debate as to what kind of religious artifact it was.
You know, "symposiums" on it, papers presented at the Science Academy Proceedings, fist fights on the floor of the Lecture Hall...
And the spirit of the human whose toy it was looked "down" at the proceedings and laughed like hell.
My imagination got off its leash at these thoughts and I thought of what would happen if they found some kind of obviously manufactured artifact on Mars with strange characters engraved on it and couldn't figure out what it was.
And some long-dead Martian's spirit was looking "down" at all this and likewise laughing like hell because it was only his tentacle-excerciser....
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.e-firstaidsupplies.com%2Fstore%2Fgraphics%2F00000001%2F922-11384-011712.jpg&hash=25f22595a2fe78284b4e1501949aa9abefc27d76)
Terry, 230RN
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roo_ster and HankB —
Good suggestions. Euro mount for display by whom and for what reason? The demand must be limited. 230RN's suggest also has merit, but I am a bit shy.
I suspect that'll pass when you do . . .
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dickson_Mounds
I got to see the exposed burials until certain people pitched a fit in the late 1980's.
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm3.staticflickr.com%2F2397%2F2178588127_228c1b12bb_o.jpg&hash=9040cbc5b5378044c925ff93d42db1c75b61d194)
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When I'm done with this body or it's done with me and it "gives up the ghost" I don't don't much give a greasy rats arse what happens to it.
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When I'm done with this body or it's done with me and it "gives up the ghost" I don't don't much give a greasy rats arse what happens to it.
I have some traditional ideas on the matter, but having my corpse pureed and then used to hose down Bloomberg and similar poltroons has its charms.
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http://myholysmoke.com/Our_Services.html
Why not go out with a bang? Or a bangbangbangbang!
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Couple of things:
1. Does anyone think its kind of weird that people put 'nightlights' on graves- is grandma going to have to get up in the middl eof the night to go to the bathroom?
2. At a recent funeral weekend back home, my folks wer etalking about planning out their own funerals and how they want everything done. My Mom said she had my Dad's funeral all planned already- cremation, urn, where to scatter the ashes, etc... I asked her if she had a date for it picked out. :rofl:
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wouldn't that be only for their elite "gods"?
They all belived in an afterlife that required the body preserved and that having certain items were nessersary to the lifestyle they wanted to have after death. The amount and quality of grave goods, the quality of the preservation of the body and the size of the tomb was just a question of how much money they had to spend on such fripperies. The rich and the Pharohs had the super elaberate crap, but the artisans, farmers and whatnot had whatever they could afford as well.
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They all belived in an afterlife that required the body preserved and that having certain items were nessersary to the lifestyle they wanted to have after death. The amount and quality of grave goods, the quality of the preservation of the body and the size of the tomb was just a question of how much money they had to spend on such fripperies. The rich and the Pharohs had the super elaberate crap, but the artisans, farmers and whatnot had whatever they could afford as well.
A kid in the ghetto could be buried with his xbox and be richer than all of them combined. Sure the Phaeros had gold, but all the gold in the world wouldn't have bought them an xbox.
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"I asked her if she had a date for it picked out. "
Brimic, that was evilly delicious.
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If it has never been in the ground, is it OK to keep a box of something dead in the house? It's already been cleansed by fire!!! ;)
bob
Speaking for myself?I've always thought that that was morbid.When my Mom told me that she wanted to be cremated I asked her what she wanted me to plant in her ashes.She said "nothing" as I killed any plants anyways. ???
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Couple of things:
1. Does anyone think its kind of weird that people put 'nightlights' on graves- is grandma going to have to get up in the middl eof the night to go to the bathroom?
When my family and I we were out putting flowers on graves last weekend, we noticed that there was a solar-powered light positioned over the graves of some of my distant relatives - "from the weird side of the family" as my dad told me. I have absolutely no idea what in the hell it's for; the cemetery is hidden up in the hills in the countryside, so I can't imagine anyone visiting it after dark, or at least not on a regular basis. There was also a tarp stretched out over the graves, as if they were trying to kill off all the grass that's over them. Maybe they were getting sick of having to come out and maintain it, but they'd still have to come out and weed it a couple times a year if they used rock or mulch.
Eh; different strokes for different folks, I guess.
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When mom passed dad went with cremation. After the funeral we "interred" the urn full of ashes ourselves at the old country cemetery where 5 generations of my family are planted.
after the funeral mass the used car salesman funeral parlor head guy found me first to hand off the urn. I laid it on the seat of my truck and when my wife climbed in for the ride out to the burial grounds she was resting her hand on the urn. About halfway out to the site she turned and asked me "Where's your mom?" When I told her under your hand I thought she was gonna jump out of the truck.
We did mom proud though. The urn dad selected was fairly tall and round. I dug the hole with a set of rusty post hole diggers, slid the urn into the hole and dad pushed it on down with his cane.
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Once you bury them, never dig them back up...that's how you get caught!
Don't worry, I'm never gonna dig them up.
...or let them down...
But on topic, I think archaeology is damn weird, and in some industries a problem. One of the difficult parts of designing for long term radioactive waste storage is how do you keep people from digging there (obviously, given the above, Rick won't). So you need to get that message across without relying on a common language or arousing curiosity.
Personally, I think all the efforts on that were wasted, because in the future when we aren't as skittish as schoolgirls around useful materials, someone is going to be running their radioshack Geiger counter around those weird hills and should "hot damn, Mary! Come quick! We found ourselves a radioisotope mine! I can believe them fellers back then would want to bury this stuff!" (In my future, we are all technologically advanced quasi-southern rednecks...which shouldn't surprise anyone given their fecundity).
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Today we went to pick up the flowers that we left last weekend. Some ahole stole the roses off my grandmother's grave. Who the *expletive deleted*ck does that? :mad:
At least they left the container.
(obviously, given the above, Rick won't).
Are you saying that's not how Rick rolls?
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^ Probably the groundskeepers after a couple of wilty days? Left the container for you to re-use?
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^ Probably the groundskeepers after a couple of wilty days? Left the container for you to re-use?
Nope. None of the other flowers in the cemetery were touched, including those we left on several other relatives' graves. The groundskeepers don't start collecting them until Monday, and when they do it they toss everything, container and all, which is why we went today.
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Up at UCONN in the archeologist's lab there is a box of human bones. Not a very big one actually. Your final is to reassemble these bones by laying them out on the table in their proper places.