Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: Perd Hapley on June 25, 2015, 06:16:36 PM
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I was wondering how many are familiar with the phrase, "There, but for the grace of God, go I." I used a slight variation of it in an online conversation today, and some people didn't seem to understand what it meant. I must sometimes check to see just how out of touch
I am people are.
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I am familiar with it.
Don't use it that much, but I've heard it.
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I must sometimes check to see just how out of touch I am people are.
We really don't want you touching anything anyway.
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Familiar with and and use it. Frequently, actually.
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I thought that was a common phrase...
???
Maybe I just read too much.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Bradford
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Being associated with the people I used to be associated with, the phrase was a daily utterance.
It's now down to somewhere between weekly and bi-monthly.
My guess is that folks fistful says are unfamiliar with it are also unfamiliar with the concepts of personal responsibility and personal accountability.
stay safe.
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My guess is that folks fistful says are unfamiliar with it are also unfamiliar with the concepts of personal responsibility and personal accountability.
I should hope not. It was a gun blog. I said "there but for the grace of God go we all" in relation to the Charleston wack-a-do, and some seemed to think I was saying that any of them might up and go on a killing spree.
I'm still not sure if folks weren't used to the phrase, or just didn't think it applied in the case of someone who committed such heinous deeds. That I would understand.
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So I'm confused. Are you TBFTGOGGI, as to you becoming a whack-a-doodle mass murderer or the victim of one?
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What we understand as cultural literacy is dying faster than actual literacy. Idiocracy is rapidly transitioning from fictional comedy to anticipatory documentary.
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"There but for fortune ..."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwXO0sbN4pc
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I thought that was a common phrase...
???
Maybe I just read too much.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Bradford
likewise
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So I'm confused. Are you TBFTGOGGI, as to you becoming a whack-a-doodle mass murderer or the victim of one?
I was responding to this (http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2015/06/daniel-zimmerman/racism-violence-prejudice-and-why-i-feel-the-need-to-own-a-gun/) with the following:
You say that Roof is not human. Then you tell us that his actions are endemic to human nature. Then you tell us (again) that people like Roof aren’t human.
The best way to resolve this is just to admit that Roof is human; and there, but for the grace of God, go we all.
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I'm familiar with it. Didn't know who it was attributed to though.
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Familiar with and and use it. Frequently, actually.
Ditto.
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I'm familiar with it. Didn't know who it was attributed to though.
Yeah, I had to double-check, and make sure it wasn't just one of my Dad's pet phrases. I ended up at the same Wiki page as BSL.
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Certainly a common expression, but I got the impression that the posters were only disputing that any of us could be a mass murderer.
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Certainly a common expression, but I got the impression that the posters were only disputing that any of us could be a mass murderer.
There, however, I think Fisty's right. Whether it's Fistful's God, one's own commitment to an internal rule set, or some other external factor the veneer of what we consider "civilized" is remarkably thin and brittle.
Time and Time again throughout the world, history has shown it doesn't take all that much to get most of us to cry havoc and loose the dogs. We are pretty much all not that far from violence.
That's why men like MLK and Ghandi are revered so much. We all know, deep down, that we probably wouldn't have stayed peaceful.
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"There but for fortune ..."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwXO0sbN4pc
I used to use it frequently, but like Tallpine, I modified it to "There, but for a couple of lucky breaks, go I."
I also use "unlucky breaks" for the opposite sense, like when someone drives by in a Ferrari. Or whatever.
Slings and arrows of outrageous fortune.... O, Fortuna, velut Luna, and all like that there.
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Double post.
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I was wondering how many are familiar with the phrase, "There, but for the grace of God, go I." I used a slight variation of it in an online conversation today, and some people didn't seem to understand what it meant. I must sometimes check to see just how out of touch I am people are.
I use it often. Not daily, but often.
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Have heard that phrase plenty. I too thought it was common. ???
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There, however, I think Fisty's right. Whether it's Fistful's God, one's own commitment to an internal rule set, or some other external factor the veneer of what we consider "civilized" is remarkably thin and brittle.
Time and Time again throughout the world, history has shown it doesn't take all that much to get most of us to cry havoc and loose the dogs. We are pretty much all not that far from violence.
That's why men like MLK and Ghandi are revered so much. We all know, deep down, that we probably wouldn't have stayed peaceful.
Not all that much removed from violence and many other not so nice things. The veneer is thin.
I don't know who said it (probably several different historical figures), but, something about, "it's what you do when there's no one watching that is the true test of character."
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I'm beginning to think that once again the external locus of control people are running scared that they, too, might turn into raging psychopaths - especially if exposed to the merest of provocation of the "right" kind.
As opposed to the internal locus of control folks who know for certain that they could turn, but that it would be in response to a deliberate decision and know the precise level of provocation that would be needed.
stay safe.
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So I'm confused. Are you TBFTGOGGI, as to you becoming a whack-a-doodle mass murderer or the victim of one?
Veering the topic a big (isn't that what we're supposed to do here?) Last Sunday a 50-ish YO man came into our little church (only 9 people there last week) by himself halfway thru the service and sat on the back row. Dressed "casual-respectful" but unshaven. I didn't get a chance to talk to him before he ducked out at the end, but the pastor did.
When we got home, Wife said when he came in she wondered to herself "what if he's a murderer?" I told her I was sitting behind him and to the left, at the sound mixer, and had him covered. "You had your gun with you?" Of course I did, and that's one reason I DON'T have to think "what if he's a murderer" when someone new walks in. (also the pastor has a carry permit but I don't know if he carries, and we have a retired police officer who can carry w/o a permit but I don't know if he does. I always assume one of 'em might be)
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I should hope not. It was a gun blog. I said "there but for the grace of God go we all" in relation to the Charleston wack-a-do, and some seemed to think I was saying that any of them might up and go on a killing spree.
I'm still not sure if folks weren't used to the phrase, or just didn't think it applied in the case of someone who committed such heinous deeds. That I would understand.
What you essentially said was that barring divine intervention you would all be mass-murdering wack-a-dos.
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Certainly a common expression, but I got the impression that the posters were only disputing that any of us could be a mass murderer.
Yeah, I think some of the people who disagreed with me were thinking that.
What you essentially said was that barring divine intervention you would all be mass-murdering wack-a-dos.
That would be overstating it a bit, but kinda. Without God's grace, we would all be "absolutely depraved," instead of merely totally depraved.
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Veering the topic a big (isn't that what we're supposed to do here?) Last Sunday a 50-ish YO man came into our little church (only 9 people there last week) by himself halfway thru the service and sat on the back row. Dressed "casual-respectful" but unshaven. I didn't get a chance to talk to him before he ducked out at the end, but the pastor did.
When we got home, Wife said when he came in she wondered to herself "what if he's a murderer?" I told her I was sitting behind him and to the left, at the sound mixer, and had him covered. "You had your gun with you?" Of course I did, and that's one reason I DON'T have to think "what if he's a murder" when someone new walks in. (also the pastor has a carry permit but I don't know if he carries, and we have a retired police officer who can carry w/o a permit but I don't know if he does. I always assume one of 'em might be)
I have been thinking about such things since I first started hearing about church-house shootings years ago. We actually had one guy come in about halfway through the service, and sit in the back. Back then, I didn't keep an eye on the door as much as I do now. I didn't know he was there, until he let out a very loud and unexpected AMEN!, or some-such. At the end of the service, our pastor had gone to the back of the sanctuary, and the visitor came up to the front and launched into some kind of prayer or sermon of some kind, until somebody started talking to him, and got him settled down a bit. I don't think he's been back since.
We also had another guy approach our pastor after the service, and tell him he should step down, so this guy could take over his church. But that is only one aspect of the weird with that particular fellow. And that, my friends, is a tale for another installment of fistful's church tales.
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Yeah, I think some of the people who disagreed with me were thinking that.
That would be overstating it a bit, but kinda. Without God's grace, we would all be "absolutely depraved," instead of merely totally depraved.
Some of us might disagree with that opinion.
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To the use of the phrase, it was my Mom's response when ever I had something to say about someone who didn't meet my 8 or 9 year old idea of normal. I use it often but rarely need to complete it as all of my compatriots from all over the country understand its meaning.
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What you essentially said was that barring divine intervention you would all be mass-murdering wack-a-dos.
Or, barring divine intervention we would all be victims of bible study shootings.
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Without God's grace, we would all be "absolutely depraved," instead of merely totally depraved.
Care to take a try at defining the distinction between "absolutely" as opposed to "totally"? To me they are pretty much synonymous.
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I'm beginning to think that once again the external locus of control people are running scared that they, too, might turn into raging psychopaths - especially if exposed to the merest of provocation of the "right" kind.
As opposed to the internal locus of control folks who know for certain that they could turn, but that it would be in response to a deliberate decision and know the precise level of provocation that would be needed.
stay safe.
Ayup.
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Or, barring divine intervention we would all be victims of bible study shootings.
What's the best caliber of "divine intervention" ? ;)
Care to take a try at defining the distinction between "absolutely" as opposed to "totally"? To me they are pretty much synonymous.
They are totally synonymous but not absolutely :angel:
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Care to take a try at defining the distinction between "absolutely" as opposed to "totally"? To me they are pretty much synonymous.
I'll take a go at telling you how others have defined the terms. Absolute depravity means that people are just as evil as they can be at all times, and in every way. Total depravity means that people aren't always as completely evil as they can be all of the time. Does that get close enough for ya?
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My depravity is definitely coming to a middle.
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I'll take a go at telling you how others have defined the terms. Absolute depravity means that people are just as evil as they can be at all times, and in every way. Total depravity means that people aren't always as completely evil as they can be all of the time. Does that get close enough for ya?
I'm not the one who asked but I don't understand either. If somebody is not completely evil that doesn't qualify them as totally depraved in my mind. In fact I know a lot of good people that I wouldn't call depraved at all. Clearly I am misunderstanding something.
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Double post
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What's the best caliber of "divine intervention" ? ;)
Anything that starts with ".4", or larger.
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“When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.” “The question is,” said Alice, “whether you can make words mean so many different things.” “The question is,” said Humpty Dumpty, “which is to be master—that’s all.”
Evidently, the quest for mastery continues.
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I'll take a go at telling you how others have defined the terms. Absolute depravity means that people are just as evil as they can be at all times, and in every way. Total depravity means that people aren't always as completely evil as they can be all of the time. Does that get close enough for ya?
To be honest, that makes no sense (to me) whatsoever. That (to me) is just playing at taking two words that mean the same thing and trying to make them mean "not quite but almost" the same thing.
TOTALLY: completely or entirely
: in a total manner : to a total or complete degree : wholly, entirely
ABSOLUTELY: in an absolute manner or condition —often used as an intensive <absolutely brilliant>
: with respect to absolute values <an absolutely convergent series>
I just don't see any functional difference between the two. I read the second part of your example as "Total depravity means not totally depraved." It's a logical impossibility.
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"How can you call me depraved when I was never praved?" (Line from someone --Ernie Kovacs?)
I'll play.
I too fail to see much of a distinction between totally depraved and completely depraved, unless someone's trying to force one between "deliberately depraved," (doing nasty things for the pleasure of it) and "casually depraved," as in allowing nasty things as a consequence of other things.
An example might be pure sadism versus killing for food or other legitimate or necessary purposes. Certainly a lion killing a gazelle is pretty nasty, but there is no intent to deliver pain for the sake of delivering pain.
Otherwise, it just sounds like a debate as to how many angels can dance on the head of a pin... or maybe just arguing for the sake of arguing.
And Road King Larry, I second your notion as stated in Reply #27:
There's a difference between being good because of an internal code of ethics and being good because of the fear of punishment.
But perhaps the term "G-d's Grace" is just a way to refer to an internal code of ethics for some of us.
This is brushed on in the Roman Catholic Act of Contrition, which goes,
"Oh, my G-d, I am heartily sorry for all my sins because I dread the loss of heaven and the pains of Hell, but most of all, because they offend Thee, my G-d, who art all good and deserving of all my love. I firmly resolve, with the help of thy grace, to confess my sins, to do penance, and to amend my ways, Amen."*
One of the rare instances where there's an indirect reference to what might be called an "externalized but internal code of ethics" if you will. :)
In other words, "the Grace of G-d."
Terry
*As I recall it from decades ago.
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To be honest, that makes no sense (to me) whatsoever. That (to me) is just playing at taking two words that mean the same thing and trying to make them mean "not quite but almost" the same thing.
I just don't see any functional difference between the two. I read the second part of your example as "Total depravity means not totally depraved." It's a logical impossibility.
It comes out of arguments between various theological schools. "Total depravity" became a label for a certain point of view, and then others asked if total really meant total. So then they had to invent another term, so some distinction could be made. Obviously, it's not perfect, and requires a little familiarizing with the terminology. Sorta like guns.
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So, how did they define or differentiate the two?
Complete, total, without exception, and true universally?
versus
Not so complete, total, without exception, and true universally?
I feel partially totally completely praved.