Author Topic: For the HISTORY Gurus - Has there ever been...  (Read 9194 times)

Werewolf

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For the HISTORY Gurus - Has there ever been...
« on: February 08, 2008, 11:09:35 AM »
what one would describe as a benevolent Theocracy?

I'm bettin' no - there's never been one. But if there has I would be interested in knowing the when, where, what religion was in charge? What made it benevolent?

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K Frame

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Re: For the HISTORY Gurus - Has there ever been...
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2008, 11:18:13 AM »
I'd say the closest is still with us today...

The Vatican.

The Mayans certainly don't qualify. Nothing benevolent about them.

I seem to remember that Montenegro was ruled theocratically for a couple hundred years....
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Perd Hapley

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Re: For the HISTORY Gurus - Has there ever been...
« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2008, 11:18:42 AM »
"Benevolent" is a little vague.  But, then, you're going to get varying definitions of "theocracy" as well. 
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Perd Hapley

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Re: For the HISTORY Gurus - Has there ever been...
« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2008, 11:22:49 AM »
The Vatican.   


By which you refer to the city itself, and its government since the Lateran Treaty of 1929?  I only ask because some will think you refer to the historical Roman Catholic influence over European governments, etc. 
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K Frame

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Re: For the HISTORY Gurus - Has there ever been...
« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2008, 11:29:10 AM »
The Vatican.   


By which you refer to the city itself, and its government since the Lateran Treaty of 1929?  I only ask because some will think you refer to the historical Roman Catholic influence over European governments, etc. 

Yes. Vatican City.

The Pope is the head of state, an elected king, in essence.
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Re: For the HISTORY Gurus - Has there ever been...
« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2008, 11:33:42 AM »
Maybe the modern Vatican.  In the past, the Catholic church has been known to be anything but benevolent.
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Werewolf

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Re: For the HISTORY Gurus - Has there ever been...
« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2008, 11:50:21 AM »
Just to be a little clearer...

I am referring to what could be deemed nation/states that are governed by a religious authority vice a secular one.

Technically the Vatican would I suppose qualify but it has little legal authority over catholics and is not what I am looking for.

I believe that there were some European theocracies in the middle ages, the Mayans as mentioned, modern day Iran.

True Theocracies are not that common and I was wondering why when one considers that even in contemporary times most people are what one would/might consider religious. Theocracies seem like they'd just naturally develop from that but it seems they don't. My hypothesis as to why is that theocracies in general are less than efficient economically, liberty is a dirty word, they are authoritarian, have draconian legal systems etc. So they don't last because they just kind of shrivel up and die or the people replace 'em with something more to their liking.

Not having a PhD in History, knowing that you guys are smart as hell and way over educated in some cases and not being interested enough to do the research myself on what is just a passing fancy I figured someone would know if there had ever been a benign/benevolent theocracy.

Still wondering?
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Re: For the HISTORY Gurus - Has there ever been...
« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2008, 11:54:28 AM »
Well, have many "benevolent" regimes of any kind have there been in the history of mankind?

Damn few, I'd wager.  Treating folk better than the dogshiite on the sole of your shoe is a relatively recent concept.

Of those theocracies that were benevolent, I would put forth that their benevolence was less a function of religion, than it was their civilization (which, yes, has a religious component). 

For instance, let us assume the Mormon regime in Utah before it became a state was benevolent.  I would argue that is because it was derived from America, not because of Mormonism.  The shared assumptions of Western and American civilization were the driving factors behind its benevolence.

An aside:

"Benevolent" is not really applicable to any government.  You can always drum up an instance of malevolent behavior.  I think it more accurate to state, "less malevolent," than "benevolent."

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Quote from: Werewolf
My hypothesis is that theocracies in general less than efficient economically, liberty is a dirty word, authoritarian, draconian etc.

You have just described 99.9% of all regimes throughout history.  Really, why should a theocracy be any better?


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Re: For the HISTORY Gurus - Has there ever been...
« Reply #8 on: February 08, 2008, 11:58:06 AM »
I'm pretty nice to the people in my Grove...it's a small kingdom, but I rule it benevolently and absolutely[1]

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Re: For the HISTORY Gurus - Has there ever been...
« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2008, 12:00:12 PM »
Are there citizens of Vatican City who aren't priests/nuns/etc.?
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Re: For the HISTORY Gurus - Has there ever been...
« Reply #10 on: February 08, 2008, 12:03:26 PM »
Are there citizens of Vatican City who aren't priests/nuns/etc.?
Are the Swiss Guards considered Vatican citizens, or do they remain Swiss Nationals?
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SADShooter

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Re: For the HISTORY Gurus - Has there ever been...
« Reply #11 on: February 08, 2008, 12:08:39 PM »
The ether ate my first post, but jfruser summed my thoughts up pretty well. Benevolent government of any kind is oxymoronic.
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Re: For the HISTORY Gurus - Has there ever been...
« Reply #12 on: February 08, 2008, 12:10:17 PM »
Since any government rule is based on fear, I would hazard a guess and say no.

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Re: For the HISTORY Gurus - Has there ever been...
« Reply #13 on: February 08, 2008, 12:45:04 PM »
I suppose one must agree as to what 'beneficial' means.

The ancient nation of Israel, prior to the monarchy was a strict theocracy and very benevolent to the Israelites.  In fact, once established, it was rather benevolent to other surrounding nations who allied themselves with the God of Israel.

Historically, the further the nation departed from the theocratic system, the less benevolent and more unsatisfactory to all it became.
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Re: For the HISTORY Gurus - Has there ever been...
« Reply #14 on: February 08, 2008, 01:19:07 PM »
Quote
In fact, once established, it was rather benevolent to other surrounding nations who allied themselves with the God of Israel.

The occasional smiteing not withstanding.  grin
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Re: For the HISTORY Gurus - Has there ever been...
« Reply #15 on: February 08, 2008, 01:38:12 PM »
The ancient nation of Israel, prior to the monarchy was a strict theocracy and very benevolent to the Israelites.  In fact, once established, it was rather benevolent to other surrounding nations who allied themselves with the God of Israel.

Uh, not so much.  I agree that no government can be completely benevolent to all people. 

I found modern Jewish law very tyrannical in a variety of ways; that's one of the many reasons I no longer practice Jewish law.

In the ancient Israelite world, they were benevolent to surrounding nations as compared to the Assyrians perhaps, but a nation that has rules about humane treatment of slaves captured in war, concubines captured in war, and half-caste or semi-caste outsiders living within a nation of full-citizens, then no, that is not entirely benevolent.

I don't think Catholicism qualifies either.  And I'm fine with that.  I don't fault any faith for not being set up to support "benevolent theocracy".  Government is not inherently benevolent.  Religions have a tendency to be much more involved in people's lives and therefore if we accept minimal gov't to be the best gov't, religion is not the proper framework for good gov't.

I'm not implying that I don't think religions are good and fine and have or should have extensive authority.  But the world is not set up for that.  We should not have gov't trying to enforce religious law. 

Do laypeople even reside in the Vatican? 

MechAg94

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Re: For the HISTORY Gurus - Has there ever been...
« Reply #16 on: February 08, 2008, 04:34:44 PM »
The ancient Israelites went through many ups and downs.  I think it would largely depend on who was king at the time. 

The problem with Theocracies in general is that the govt's focus is not on good govt, but on forcing everyone to be good religious followers.  Everything else is secondary.  A religion with political and military power over people is bound to be authoritarian and tyrannical.  Freedom might allow people to question their religion.  While I think that is a healthy thing, those with power would most likely fear it and seek to stamp in out.  Bureaucracies are about only power and survival of the Bureaucracy. 
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Werewolf

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Re: For the HISTORY Gurus - Has there ever been...
« Reply #17 on: February 08, 2008, 05:09:32 PM »
Quote
A religion with political and military power over people is bound to be authoritarian and tyrannical.  Freedom might allow people to question their religion.
Which sounds to me a lot like any government based on religion is much more susceptible to becoming tyrannical than a secular one. Not that secular govts don't eventually become tyrannical given enough time it just takes longer than it would for a government focused on and for religion?
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Re: For the HISTORY Gurus - Has there ever been...
« Reply #18 on: February 08, 2008, 05:53:05 PM »
Tibetan would be a close second to the Israelies, depending on the time period.

Perd Hapley

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Re: For the HISTORY Gurus - Has there ever been...
« Reply #19 on: February 08, 2008, 06:11:38 PM »
I hear Tibetan is lovely this time of year. 

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Re: For the HISTORY Gurus - Has there ever been...
« Reply #20 on: February 08, 2008, 06:35:59 PM »
Quote
A religion with political and military power over people is bound to be authoritarian and tyrannical.  Freedom might allow people to question their religion.
Which sounds to me a lot like any government based on religion is much more susceptible to becoming tyrannical than a secular one. Not that secular govts don't eventually become tyrannical given enough time it just takes longer than it would for a government focused on and for religion?

I don't think that could be documented.  Again, the degree of initial tyranny will be reflective of the culture in which the political system or religion finds itself as the culture will control the setting up of the government.
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Re: For the HISTORY Gurus - Has there ever been...
« Reply #21 on: February 10, 2008, 09:44:52 AM »
I'd say the closest is still with us today...

The Vatican.

The Mayans certainly don't qualify. Nothing benevolent about them.

I seem to remember that Montenegro was ruled theocratically for a couple hundred years....
   Please expand on the Mayans.  If you are talking about human sacrifice, much of that was voluntary.  Obviously the slaves killed were not.

But we have to ask benevolent to who?  All?  The local people?  Neighboring states?  Enemies?

Bigjake

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Re: For the HISTORY Gurus - Has there ever been...
« Reply #22 on: February 10, 2008, 09:51:26 AM »
Iran, or at least thats what I'm told on another thread...

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Re: For the HISTORY Gurus - Has there ever been...
« Reply #23 on: February 10, 2008, 10:08:21 AM »
I'd say the closest is still with us today...

The Vatican.

The Mayans certainly don't qualify. Nothing benevolent about them.

I seem to remember that Montenegro was ruled theocratically for a couple hundred years....
   Please expand on the Mayans.  If you are talking about human sacrifice, much of that was voluntary.  Obviously the slaves killed were not.

But we have to ask benevolent to who?  All?  The local people?  Neighboring states?  Enemies?

re the Maya

Is it truly "voluntary" if the very system you "voluntarily" give your life for has told you you have to do it or face religious sanction?  That allowing yourself to be murdered is in fact a good and noble thing?

I would say by its very nature that sort of a system was not benevolent as there was no real option to not volunteer and that volunteering equaled being murdered.

To avert the inevitable "but, but our political system tells us it's noble to go to war..."

It also offers other alternatives which maintain some social sanction, not to mention that simply going to war does not equal inevitable death, unlike having your heart ripped out.

Also, I'm not a moral relativist, so I don't really care that all the ancient Maya believed their state and religiously sanctioned murder was justified.

As for "to whom"...

A political system owes its first loyalty to its members, which is why any inclusive religion (you can join regardless of nationality) with a centralized authority is particularly unsuited for secular rule.  It may be impossible to equally serve your citizenry and co-religionists and/or you may feel forced to bring your co-religionists under your secular hand as well.

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MechAg94

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Re: For the HISTORY Gurus - Has there ever been...
« Reply #24 on: February 10, 2008, 06:38:54 PM »
Quote
A religion with political and military power over people is bound to be authoritarian and tyrannical.  Freedom might allow people to question their religion.
Which sounds to me a lot like any government based on religion is much more susceptible to becoming tyrannical than a secular one. Not that secular govts don't eventually become tyrannical given enough time it just takes longer than it would for a government focused on and for religion?

I don't think that could be documented.  Again, the degree of initial tyranny will be reflective of the culture in which the political system or religion finds itself as the culture will control the setting up of the government.
Honestly, any govt will face the temptation of power to become more authoritarian.  A religious govt just has at least one additional reason go down that path.  Add to that the idea of wars being started over it.  I agree that the level of authoritarianism will reflect the culture in general.  One person's authoritarian govt might be relatively free to another guy. 
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