Post by: Eleven Mike on January 29, 2007, 09:46:59 AM
Please read my original post and tell me what I did "wrong." My thanks to Furious Styles for his sympathy. Even if my post was humorous, I don't see how that would have justified a clear violation of my right to free speech. As it is, I am trying very hard to expand our penetration and market share, and would very much appreciate some help doing it. It figures the Bush-drone moderators at THR don't want to help a small business they'd rather my store fold and all the money go to places like Wal-Mart that only sell cheap hunting guns.
http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=251461
Men-friendly gunstore, suggestions please.
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I have just taken over the management of a gun store in a large metro area. Let's just say the previous management left a lot to be desired, and I've got to get the business back in shape.
I'm trying to attract the male market, which I think has been under-exploited with all the attention on female shooters lately. I'm looking for any suggestions to make my store more appealing and welcoming to guys.
I'm considering a name change, as the shop is currently called "She Shoots, She Scores!" Beyond that, we may need to scale back on the promotion of "Marksmanship Teas" and "Target Scrapbooking." Of course, we won't completely abandon those, as we value our female customers very highly. Also, we will be reducing our inventory of AR-15s and 9mm's, so we can also stock more masculine firearms. I'd appreciate any input on guns that would appeal to men shooters.
One of my ideas is to have a Superbowl Party at the store, with laser-equipped pistols we can use to dry-fire at the opposing team-members. Of course, I'll need to have my counter-guys brush up on their football knowledge, as they are more interested in show-tunes and such. I'll also be having some open-carry barbecues, so long as I can do so legally on the front sidewalk. Of course, my employees would rather go with fondu.
Suggestions welcome, just please remember this is a family forum. Thanks!
Post by: The Rabbi on January 29, 2007, 09:58:18 AM
My mantra stands: I would never belong to any forum that would have me as a member.
Post by: Furious Styles on January 29, 2007, 10:06:13 AM
sHOOTERS
Post by: mtnbkr on January 29, 2007, 10:20:28 AM
I recall another thread on THR long ago from someone claiming he weighed 300 lbs and needed advice on concealed carry for the nudist colony he was attending. It was a joke, of course. But that didnt stop the humor-impaired from opining about rectal holsters etc.
I remember that thread. It was hysterical. Chris
Post by: Gewehr98 on January 29, 2007, 10:22:18 AM
Quote
Even if my post was humorous, I don't see how that would have justified a clear violation of my right to free speech.
Well, that was your first mistake. Who told you that you had a right to free speech on a privately-owned forum? (Seriously, you don't call the shots.)
Post by: roo_ster on January 29, 2007, 10:33:18 AM
Little different from some of the works of fiction they have let go on for uncounted pages.
You, however, touched on a subject one of the Mods is ah...a bit touchy.
[Insert disclaimer of your own discussing how the forum is owned by someone who can make their own rules, "free speech" principles do not apply, and so forth; so the humorless won't hector me for not paying homage to the aforementioned disclaimer.]
Post by: mtnbkr on January 29, 2007, 10:34:33 AM
Chris
Post by: Brad Johnson on January 29, 2007, 10:42:28 AM
Brad
Post by: Ex-MA Hole on January 29, 2007, 10:46:12 AM
Even if my post was humorous, I don't see how that would have justified a clear violation of my right to free speech.
Sorry- Nothing personal, but you're wrong. This has nothing to do with Freedom of Speech. It's a private forum. You do not make the rules.
I will quote myself, because I think it gets the point accress that I am trying to make:
"Guys, and girls, it's not your site. With the exception of ONE person, we are ALL guests. If that ONE person wants to drop f bomb after f bomb, it's his house. If he tells us we can't swear, then don't. Where's the problem? Are we that moronic that we can't handle this rule? Is our vocabulary that simple?
Would you go into someone's house and put your feet on the coffee table after they ask you 100 times nicely not to? Or do you claim to be protected by the 1st amendment? THEN WHY DO IT HERE???"
Post by: Eleven Mike on January 29, 2007, 12:08:09 PM
I guess you didn't bother to read my original post in the locked thread, did you?
Post by: Gewehr98 on January 29, 2007, 12:37:30 PM
Post by: Eleven Mike on January 29, 2007, 12:45:45 PM
Everybody's such freedom-loving libertarians until all of the sudden an owner of a private business wants some advice from his potential customers. At that point, you all just assume I'm joking and shut down my thread. And all I'm trying to do is bring men into the shooting sports, where they are under-represented. Well, if I can't express myself on THR, what are my options? I don't think the first ammendment reads "You have a right to free speech as long as you own an internet forum"
Post by: Manedwolf on January 29, 2007, 12:47:55 PM
Quote
Seems the folks over at THR have grown more and more... something.
Thing is, if a place keeps banning all the longtime contributors and people who actually have discussions, it ends up with a "last updated" date of two years ago, a few spam posts, and rolling tumbleweeds.
It's happened to a lot of forums, it can happen to that one.
Post by: Cosmoline on January 29, 2007, 01:06:05 PM
Post by: Gewehr98 on January 29, 2007, 01:19:18 PM
Quote
Was it a joke or not?
Yeah, what he said. Because now I'm having a hard time figuring out whether it was a tongue-in-cheek response to the other thread on THR about bringing more women into gun shops, or hardcore Jimmy Kimmel/Adam Carolla Man Show material...
Post by: Car Knocker on January 29, 2007, 01:19:54 PM
Well, if I can't express myself on THR, what are my options? I don't think the first ammendment reads "You have a right to free speech as long as you own an internet forum"
Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
Where does this say it applies to anything other than the government?
Post by: Brad Johnson on January 29, 2007, 01:37:09 PM
It is a clamp-down on the government's ability to restrict your speach. Current popular belief and usage to the contrary, the First Amendment says nothing about a person or people specifying what may or may not be appropriate within context of their private gathering or forum.
Brad
Post by: Bogie on January 29, 2007, 01:44:56 PM
All straight guys here who have never lusted after models from Mike Dillon's catalog, please reply.
We're waiting...
Post by: cosine on January 29, 2007, 01:51:47 PM
Okay.
All straight guys here who have never lusted after models from Mike Dillon's catalog, please reply.
All straight guys here who have never lusted after models from Mike Dillon's catalog, please reply.
One here. Seriously.
Post by: Car Knocker on January 29, 2007, 02:00:54 PM
Post by: Declaration Day on January 29, 2007, 02:01:51 PM
Quote from: Furious Styles
sHOOTERS
Love it!
My suggestion is "The Bull's hit"
Post by: Bogie on January 29, 2007, 02:05:35 PM
I mean, hey, I'm sure even Pope John Paul went to confession - and if he was a gun nut, well...
Post by: cosine on January 29, 2007, 02:09:14 PM
Cosine, we gotta talk. Either about honesty, or about a nice appointment with an eye doctor before you go to the range again...
I mean, hey, I'm sure even Pope John Paul went to confession - and if he was a gun nut, well...
I mean, hey, I'm sure even Pope John Paul went to confession - and if he was a gun nut, well...
It's a matter of the will. It can be done.
Post by: Eleven Mike on January 29, 2007, 02:09:15 PM
All straight guys here who have never lusted after models from Mike Dillon's catalog, please reply.
Bigot! Don't the lesbians have a right to answer your question? But you would deny them their rights!
OK, OK, the whole thing is a farce. Man, it IS funny to see how many people I can rope in with that stuff. I wish it weren't so easy, but there are just too many sad people who are serious about their right to post anything they want on Oleg's forums.
Suckers! 
Post by: K Frame on January 29, 2007, 02:18:29 PM
I love it when someone invokes the Constitution, but either doesn't understand, or doesn't give a damn about, the Constitution, and then gets all huffy when it's pointed out that rights are a two-way street, not simply a magnificient font that pours forth on them, and them alone.
By virtue of the fact that you're breathing doesn't mean that your rights are absolute, that nothing and no one has any ability or right to restrain your actions, activities, or words.
That's a patently childish attitude, but one that's shared by a frightening number of people.
Post by: K Frame on January 29, 2007, 02:20:47 PM
It's happened to a lot of forums, it can happen to that one."
And the converse is ALSO true.
Permitting rampant 'tards to act in any manner they wish can, and also does, destroy forums. People who are actually adult enough to be allowed to take Mommy and Daddy's keyboard for a drive get frustrated and leave for a board where moderators aren't the equivilent of braindead zombies and the lunatics don't rule the asylum.
In years past I've witnessed some of my favorite boards die simply because none of the "moderators" had the testicles to clamp down on the aholes.
Post by: BakerMikeRomeo on January 29, 2007, 04:52:28 PM
Quote
had the testicles to clamp down on the aholes.
~GnSx
Post by: Bogie on January 29, 2007, 05:00:43 PM
Frankly, as of late, the forum has turned into Zero Tolerance city... That's a bad thing - it means people are encouraged to NOT think - to just act, and blame "policy."
Little Johnny draws a picture of his daddy with a deer rifle, and gets expelled. That's Zero Tolerance. A poster says something that's disagreed with by those in power...
Post by: Thor on January 29, 2007, 05:16:14 PM
Post by: Lee on January 29, 2007, 06:20:36 PM
I'll bet Lawdog will be very dissappointed.
Post by: Phyphor on January 29, 2007, 06:46:50 PM
Now look, Oleg made the rules, and chose the mods to enforce them. IF you have a problem with how a particular mod is enforcing the rules, then talk to (PM) Oleg. Bitching about it over here isn't gonna do anything constructive.
Post by: Perd Hapley on January 29, 2007, 08:29:06 PM
He already said the whole thing was tongue-in-cheek.
Post by: Art Eatman on January 30, 2007, 07:05:01 AM
Art
Post by: Justin on January 30, 2007, 08:27:12 AM
Quote
Thread locked on THR: Moderators are evil Stalinists
Yes. Yes we are.
Except for those of us that are pirates or ninjas.
Just don't go to telling anybody.
Post by: mtnbkr on January 30, 2007, 08:30:34 AM
Chris
Post by: Eleven Mike on January 30, 2007, 08:35:16 AM
See, another one follows a dissenter to APS for hounding. How far will they go to crush our rights?
Good photo, by the way.
Post by: mtnbkr on January 30, 2007, 08:44:20 AM
Chris
Post by: Justin on January 30, 2007, 09:22:52 AM
Quote
Too late, evil Justin! I have exposed you and your cronies!
BLAST! Foiled again!
Quote
How far will they go to crush our rights?
The Volga with a couple of hard, pipe-hittin' Russkies is on the way as we speak.
Quote
Good photo, by the way.
I linked it from CNN. Makes me wonder if Ted Turner is possessed of a sense of irony.
Post by: Matthew Carberry on January 30, 2007, 09:39:03 AM
Post by: Brad Johnson on January 30, 2007, 09:44:43 AM
Quote
Makes me wonder if Ted Turner is possessed of a sense of irony
I wish he'd let someone "irony" on his combover. You'ld think someone with that kind of money could afford a better 'do.
Brad
Post by: Perd Hapley on January 30, 2007, 09:47:26 AM
Post by: griz on January 30, 2007, 09:53:35 AM
Post by: Eleven Mike on January 30, 2007, 09:57:55 AM
Lighten up, griz.
Post by: Matthew Carberry on January 30, 2007, 10:07:56 AM
But the responsibility still rests on both parties to read the post carefully for context and look at who's saying what. Rising in offense should be preceded by looking at the situation logically.
If a poster (or mod) is obviously not a Stalinist (or fascist or what-have-you) then calling them one can only (logically) be taken two ways. Either the poster calling names is an absolute idiot or they are joking. So you check who is posting the iffy comment and see if that sort of thing is in character for them.
If it's someone new, without a history to judge, it makes more sense to PM or post the question "are you serious?" before going off on a rant about rudeness, Godwin and the like.
Give folks the benefit of the doubt before jumping on them and you look less reactionary.
an example follows...
Quote from: griz
Hmmm, maybe I'm just too grumpy lately.
Like Hitler was "too grumpy"?
Post by: Werewolf on January 30, 2007, 10:35:33 AM
Quote
Even if my post was humorous, I don't see how that would have justified a clear violation of my right to free speech.
Well, that was your first mistake. Who told you that you had a right to free speech on a privately-owned forum? (Seriously, you don't call the shots.)
BUT - the folks that do should at least shoot straight and consistently. The THR mods seem to have lost that ability lately - in other words: They're not all on the same page; they're not all playin' by the same rules; darts thrown while blindfolded seems to be the game playing strategy of the day over there.
That said: Eleven Mike's Gunshop for Men thread is a perfect example of the above. There was no reason to close it. It didn't violate any published rule that I can find in their published list:
Quote
There are only a few house rules:
1.) All topics and posts must be related to firearms or civil liberties issues.
2.) Multiple user registrations are prohibited.
3.) As a family-friendly board, we ask that you keep your language clean. If you wouldn't say it in front of your dear old Grandma, you probably don't want to say it here.
4.) Spamming, trolling, flaming, and personal attacks are prohibited. You can disagree with other members, even vehemently, but it must be done in a well-mannered form. Attack the argument, not the arguer.
5.) We cannot provide a comprehensive list of "Things Not To Say".Posts that are contrary to the above policies, or to the mission of The High Road, may be edited or deleted at our sole discretion. Membership may be revoked if such a step is deemed necessary by us. We're a private venture enabled by an all-volunteer staff. Please treat this venue as a polite discussion in a friend's home and respect the wishes of the hosts.
The only rule he could possibly have broken is rule number 5 which is basically their out which says they can close a thread just because they don't like that period you put in there at the end of sentence 5 kind of thing.1.) All topics and posts must be related to firearms or civil liberties issues.
2.) Multiple user registrations are prohibited.
3.) As a family-friendly board, we ask that you keep your language clean. If you wouldn't say it in front of your dear old Grandma, you probably don't want to say it here.
4.) Spamming, trolling, flaming, and personal attacks are prohibited. You can disagree with other members, even vehemently, but it must be done in a well-mannered form. Attack the argument, not the arguer.
5.) We cannot provide a comprehensive list of "Things Not To Say".Posts that are contrary to the above policies, or to the mission of The High Road, may be edited or deleted at our sole discretion. Membership may be revoked if such a step is deemed necessary by us. We're a private venture enabled by an all-volunteer staff. Please treat this venue as a polite discussion in a friend's home and respect the wishes of the hosts.
In other words rule 5 says "It's my board and I can run it anyway I like and if you don't like it then I'll just take my ball and go home an no one can play"!
What I see occuring at THR is analogous to what happens to governments as they evolve: over time it is getting more and more restrictive. It's not to the point yet that some WEB forums I've been on got to but it is getting there.
Post by: Matthew Carberry on January 30, 2007, 10:43:13 AM
It's bad enough they have to deal with actual trolls, but members who know better should maybe think before cluttering up the board. Anything actually clever like the gunshop idea (and it was funny) is just going to spawn a legion of imitators, who aren't funny, and who will point to Eleven's thread as justification, "he gets to do it, you guys are unfair".
Better perhaps to just not allow non-serious threads at all, given the current troll climate.
That doesn't mean you can't have fun in a thread, but the topic covered should be genuine at the start.
Post by: Werewolf on January 30, 2007, 10:54:00 AM
Quote
I will quote myself, because I think it gets the point accress that I am trying to make:
"Guys, and girls, it's not your site. With the exception of ONE person, we are ALL guests. If that ONE person wants to drop f bomb after f bomb, it's his house. If he tells us we can't swear, then don't. Where's the problem? Are we that moronic that we can't handle this rule? Is our vocabulary that simple?
Would you go into someone's house and put your feet on the coffee table after they ask you 100 times nicely not to? Or do you claim to be protected by the 1st amendment? THEN WHY DO IT HERE???"
The whole HOUSE analogy is flawed."Guys, and girls, it's not your site. With the exception of ONE person, we are ALL guests. If that ONE person wants to drop f bomb after f bomb, it's his house. If he tells us we can't swear, then don't. Where's the problem? Are we that moronic that we can't handle this rule? Is our vocabulary that simple?
Would you go into someone's house and put your feet on the coffee table after they ask you 100 times nicely not to? Or do you claim to be protected by the 1st amendment? THEN WHY DO IT HERE???"
Agreed: The forum belongs to the guy who pays the bills but it is more like a public park or a restaurant than his home. Forums are open to the public just like a park. There are no criteria that need be met to enter. It's a public forum.
Like a park one can do what one wants within the law and in general and as far as I know freedom of speech isn't restricted in one (hop right up on a soap box and commence to speak your mind). The only caveat I would add is that since THR is a topic focused forum that posts should be ON TOPIC and if not then they should be deleted. There are many off topic threads on THR that are never deleted let alone locked because of the arbitrary nature of some of the mods.
Now some parks, and other establishments are members only affairs. One must meet certain criteria to belong. THR isn't like that. Show up, register, and voila you be a membah! Yeehah!
So I don't buy that whole it's his house deal. One doesn't invite 10,000 strangers into one's home. One does invite 10,000 strangers to a public park.
And while I'm ranting the THR Mission statement says:
Quote
It is the declared mission of this board to achieve and provide the highest quality of firearms discussion on the Internet
All the mods are doing now is providing the most arbitrary firearms discussion on the internet along with discussion of non-firearm related topics they have a particular fondness for.THAT SAID: I still visit THR and read about 1/2 of what's posted. I still occasionally post but not near as often as I used to. I still read general and L&P but mostly read the gun related forums. Why because there's nothing arbitrary about the gun forums and the mods there.
Maybe THR should just kill off General and L&P and stick to the gun and other forums.
Post by: Eleven Mike on January 30, 2007, 10:54:37 AM
Gun-related humor threads should be allowed (I think LawDog still posts his yarns over there.) but I'm not in a position to tell the moderators what to do. They know a whole lot more about what's going on over there than I do. It's a tricky business and if a few fun threads have to bite the dust to keep things on the High Road, that's fine with me.
I think my last humorous thread was "If you could only own 300 guns..." Hehehe.
That one got locked pretty fast, too.
Post by: K Frame on January 30, 2007, 11:00:22 AM
Incorrect.
You must register, and in doing so you agree both to abide by the terms and conditions set down by the owner of the forum and to be bound by those terms and conditions.
If you don't like those terms and conditions, you're welcome to find another board where they're more to your liking.
Post by: Bogie on January 30, 2007, 11:27:54 AM
I mean, I fully expect to see "What is the best way to conceal a minigun and the air tank under a black trench coat, so that I don't have to go to school anymore? And where do I buy the thing that automatically switches the guns for me?"
Post by: ilbob on January 30, 2007, 11:47:59 AM
Seems the folks over at THR have grown more and more... something. I can't put a finger on it but it seems that some of the mods have a tough time remaining objective, or at least applying an objective criteria to the way they police the forum. They certainly are hair-trigger on the ban button all of a sudden.
Brad
Brad
I am not sure about the hair trigger but there does seem to be something going on there of late. Could be just a phase the mods are going through.
THR is mild compared to some boards. And back before there was an Internet we had BBS's. Many of them were put up by teen aged male geeks who wielded power with the finesse of a bull.
If THR gets too restrictive the posters will move on.
Post by: Eleven Mike on January 30, 2007, 11:50:06 AM
Quote
And where do I buy the thing that automatically switches the guns for me?"
Yeah, the military really needs to look into that technology that lets you carry an anti-tank rocket, fifty reloads, shotgun and ammo, general-purpose machine gun and ammo, three long-guns with ammo, two subguns with ammo, three pistols with ammo, and a knife, and still allows you to instantly switch between any of them or your bare hands without dropping anything or having any trouble finding and reloading with the correct ammo for each piece.
Post by: Werewolf on January 30, 2007, 12:21:29 PM
"There are no criteria that need be met to enter."
Incorrect.
You must register, and in doing so you agree both to abide by the terms and conditions set down by the owner of the forum and to be bound by those terms and conditions.
If you don't like those terms and conditions, you're welcome to find another board where they're more to your liking.
I was waiting for just this response...Incorrect.
You must register, and in doing so you agree both to abide by the terms and conditions set down by the owner of the forum and to be bound by those terms and conditions.
If you don't like those terms and conditions, you're welcome to find another board where they're more to your liking.
When the board stops abiding by the rules then all bets are off. It's not just me but many others who have noted the arbitrary and capricious way that the the mods at THR are enforcing the rules.
How can they expect the forum users to abide by the rules when they don't themselves...
Oh wait - raises hand - I know - I know.
Just like parents (or any other entity with authority) it's a DO AS I SAY NOT AS I DO DEAL...
Does that about sum it up?
Post by: Perd Hapley on January 30, 2007, 12:23:01 PM
Post by: Ron on January 30, 2007, 01:06:24 PM
Quote
Time for Werewolf to start his own forum. Hey, if GunKid can do it...
He is entitled to his opinion.
Truthfully I spend a lot less time there now compared to years past. I don't really even know why, I don't have a beef with the forum or how it is run.
It may be it is just bigger and filled with more people who don't understand the original vision.
For all practical purposes I am one of the original members of THR. When I joined I was relatively new to firearms and shooting. I lurked for years without posting, much of my philosophy about firearms and self defense was formulated from reading threads at THR.
I think the reason I spend less time there is because most of my questions are answered. I also have this place to BS with folks of like mind about firearms but different ideas and interests in other areas. So THR has fulfilled its main function for me, I can get the gunfolk camaraderie here.
Just looked, member since 12-25-02, member#785
Post by: K Frame on January 30, 2007, 03:23:24 PM
Who are you to determine if the "rules" as you INTERPRET them are being broken?
You've just given us a wonderous example of one of the major problems in American society today -- Sense of Entitlement.
Hint for you, just because you're sucking oxygen doesn't mean that anyone, least of all the owners/moderators of an internet posting board whose services you receive for free, owes you anything.
It's an amazing show of hubris on your part to even dream that they do.
For God's sake, be a man, not a purling, whining little bitch. If you don't like how a board is being run, don't try to claim some right to ownership over it.
Either take your problems to the owner of the board or his designated representatives, leave that board and find one that is more nurturing to your badly overdeveloped sense of entitlement, or found your own board when you can make, and interpret, your rules as you see fit.
Just stop being a punk-ass little wimp crybaby because not everyone sees fit to cater to your every whim.
Post by: Gewehr98 on January 30, 2007, 03:27:15 PM
Quote
At least I can still make fun of Gewher 98
Well, if you're gonna do it, at least spell it right.
And don't forget, turnabout is fair play.
I just retired after 20 years flying WC-135 and B-52. The VA just issued my my combat disability rating this week. I have a keenly developed sense of humor after that. My wing commander reminded us all, "It's funny if just one person laughs." So bring it on, the worst they could do is ban me...
Post by: Matthew Carberry on January 30, 2007, 03:27:44 PM
Post by: Oleg Volk on January 30, 2007, 04:35:55 PM
2. THR mission and procedures have been under discussion lately. They will be clarified later this week.
3. We are not Stalinists. More like a mix of Pilisudski and Kemal.
Post by: Sindawe on January 30, 2007, 05:27:19 PM
Quote
THR mission and procedures have been under discussion lately. They will be clarified later this week.
Uh oh, that can't be good.
Post by: Furious Styles on January 30, 2007, 07:51:48 PM
Quote
THR mission and procedures have been under discussion lately. They will be clarified later this week.
Uh oh, that can't be good. Feast your eyes: http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=251835