Law enforcement has "hazard list" of addresses consider as "dangerous"

[Grandpa Shooter]

Imagine just a simple mistake, such as them having your home listed as a meth lab.  Or even that you have a dangerous dog.  So, you call 911 because your kid fell down the stairs and needs an ambulance.  But the Ambulance won't show up until the police do.  And you lose 5 or 10 minutes because of a clerical mistake?  

Call me paranoid   but any time a public servant begins keeping secrets, as a citizen I'd be concerned.  History bears out that anytime those in power start keeping lists of people who don't agree with them, the next step is to oppress those people.  Maybe I'm nuts  but history don't lie.

Bingo

And the prize goes to Jamis. Exactly my thinking.  As soon as people in power start making lists, my hackles are up.

[oldfart]

"Secrecy is the beginning of tyranny."  So says Lazarus Long (Robert Heinlein.)

[roo_ster]

Yep.  The concept makes terrific sense.  Keeping a record of calls seems to be the way to accomplish this without it becoming a political issue.  But, there will also always be some power hungry tool out there who thinks that being elected or appointed to a high position means they have the right to compile a list of political enemies and "problem" citizens.  The mind runs rampant with ideas on ways to abuse such a list.  Obviously, the minute any "list" becomes secret, not subject to public oversight, well then there's a problem.  It'd be nice to know if the police have my home erroneously listed as a gang house or meth lab should I need to call 911 for something. 

Imagine just a simple mistake, such as them having your home listed as a meth lab.  Or even that you have a dangerous dog.  So, you call 911 because your kid fell down the stairs and needs an ambulance.  But the Ambulance won't show up until the police do.  And you lose 5 or 10 minutes because of a clerical mistake? 

Call me paranoid  but any time a public servant begins keeping secrets, as a citizen I'd be concerned.  History bears out that anytime those in power start keeping lists of people who don't agree with them, the next step is to oppress those people.  Maybe I'm nuts  but history don't lie.

JJ, get out of my brain!

A list/history of goings-on at various locations is fine & dandy.  Keeping it secret is the means by which it begins to fester into an evil thing.

Keeping such lists/history open and searchable is the way to prevent it going all pear-shaped relative to the citizenry.

If folks see something on the list/history and squawk, LEOs ought to be able to point to some public record (arrest, report, etc.) that would justify placement on the list/history.  If they can't or won't, mebbe the problem is not with the addy, but with the LEO?

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

Sounds more like she attempted to exercise her 1st Amendment rights, that part about a redress of grievances, and the sheriff decided she was a danger, to his career. 

that could be in an imaginary world  but according to the facts in evidence here it wsn't the sheriff who made the call.  anyone find out what the ladies underlying issue was?  i just wanna see where the needle on my loon detector goes to

[Balog]

In the military, they call this intel.  If you are the point man on a stick of troops that is about to bust a door in outer Moniraqstan, I suspect you want to know that this address is a known bomb factory.

Is this markedly different from the needs of first responders in civilian life?  That the resident has a history of seizures, is suffering from dementia, is an escaped felon?

I'd say cops approaching the people they are supposedly serving the way we approached hajjis on raids is the problem. Cops!=infantry, citizens!=enemy combatants.

A list of previous calls/incidents is one thing: that's all public record anyway, amirite? If they really thought this lady was setting out boobytraps/fixing to whack first responders they should've investigated. But "She complained about the sheriff, we better put her on the secret list. Don't let anyone know though, they'd be pissed!" is so far past acceptable it's not even funny.

[roo_ster]

I'd say cops approaching the people they are supposedly serving the way we approached hajjis on raids is the problem. Cops!=infantry, citizens!=enemy combatants.

Ayup.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

did these cops approach this lady like that?  i mean in real life
how did she find out she was on the list? if they were keeping it secret they weren't trying too hard.  there is a lot of stuff missing from this story and my suspicious nature wonders

[Hawkmoon]

Wow, I had no idea cop shops kept Nixon-style "enemies" lists.

Whether they are official lists or just unofficial tallies maintained by the officers, I have always believed that police departments keep such lists and it is why I would never allow my name to be used in (for example) a letter to the editor that's critical of a police officer or department. If they decide to "take in interest" in someone, there are all kinds of ways they can make your life "interesting."

Police departments can't be trusted to maintain lists, even for legitimate purposes. Several years ago, as I was sitting at the computer one evening, the phone rang. I answered, and a rather gruff voice on the other end said, "This is Dispatcher ___ of the police department. You need to bring your dogs inside the house RIGHT NOW so the officers can approach your door."

Well, this was certainly news to me, because (a) I didn't own a dog and had never owned a dog; and (b) I could see the driveway and there were no police vehicles in sight. So I informed the dispatcher of that. Whereupon he escalated his tone of voice (obviously he had attended "command voice" class) and told me in no uncertain terms that if I did not comply with his order the officers would have to shoot my dogs and break down the door.

I invited him to fire at will, since it was obvious he had no idea who he as calling and I was certain some family would be only too happy to file a lawsuit against the municipality and the police department.

Naturally, it turned out the officers were at the home of another family with the same last name, at the far end of the street. That family had an unlisted telephone number -- and multiple German shepherds. Turns out the geniuses at the PD got "their" number by calling directory assistance. Since the last name isn't exactly Smith or Jones, the operator gave them my number even through the street number wasn't even close, and the idiot police never bothered to verify it.

And now they want to start keeping secret lists of dangerous addresses? I think that's a monumentally terrible idea.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

so this lady was amongst those calling for the chief to resign for having an affair? and in her mind he put her on a list?  she takes herself real serious... is she a shiny side in? or shiny side out girl?

[Strings]

The idea that any form of "on call service" that goes to your door NOT keeping a list of "problem sites" is naive. However, for public servants to maintain such a list in secret, with no way of seeing what's on "your" file?

Scary, at best.

[Perd Hapley]

And never have I seen a person complain about it without someone trying to mock these claims of oppression or dismiss them as non-extant.

But that same mocker will have his own claims of oppression about something else.  This shtick you're on is a little weird.  You apparently believe that anything that might seem like oppression, no matter how fabricated or trivial, must be taken seriously? 

[Strings]

HALP! HALP! I'M BEIN' OPPRESSED!!!!!ONE111!!ELEVENTY

[Perd Hapley]

Somebody call the press up in String's area, please.  He is clearly under some serious form of oppression.   

Like, maybe he was hassled by the Man, for driving around with his Wookie suit on.  THIS SHALL NOT STAND!!

[Jamisjockey]

that could be in an imaginary world  but according to the facts in evidence here it wsn't the sheriff who made the call.  anyone find out what the ladies underlying issue was?  i just wanna see where the needle on my loon detector goes to

The list itself isn't secret, but the police won't say why she's on it.  A) shouldn't that be public record, and B) shouldn't that be public record:?

Tempe's legal department said that they could not provide any information to Holguin because the hazard system was not for the public's review. If people found out why they were on the list, it could anger a resident and endanger the public, Tempe police
reasoned.

If I get the cops called out for some reason, it should be public record.  But, if my house used to be a meth lab or something, and its not anymore, I should be given the chance to clear my name and get the proper response from our PUBLIC SERVANTS.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

depends on what got you on the list. could be a neighbor who doesn't want the loony lady to know she complained . heck guy lives 5 doors up seemed fine   killed a friend of mine the beat an 80 some year old man to death with a bat.  guy had lived in that same house 30 years never thought of him as a killer. i'd like to know more about this lady   maybe see the email she claims started it all

[MicroBalrog]

But that same mocker will have his own claims of oppression about something else.  This shtick you're on is a little weird.  You apparently believe that anything that might seem like oppression, no matter how fabricated or trivial, must be taken seriously? 

Have I not explained my viewpoint on this in the past?

[roo_ster]

depends on what got you on the list. could be a neighbor who doesn't want the loony lady to know she complained .

Uh, no. 

Anonymous tips are fine & all, but if that is all you got it is not enough.  I don't want to live in a society of informants where I can inform on you with unsubstantiated charges and have it stick.  Are we that far removed from the fall of the Berlin Wall?  Guess so.

If the anonymous tip is enough to get you on "the list," it is enough to go out and try to verify.  No verification, no listification.

[Balog]

Hey, if they can no knock you on an anon tip, why not list you?

[Strings]

>Hey, if they can no knock you on an anon tip, why not list you?<

Which kinda makes the point, no?

Besides: I thought they had to falsify have SOME corroborating evidence to pull a no-knock?

[Balog]

Which kinda makes the point, no?

Ayup.

Besides: I thought they had to falsify have SOME corroborating evidence to pull a no-knock?

Like being on a hazard list?

[Jamisjockey]

depends on what got you on the list. could be a neighbor who doesn't want the loony lady to know she complained . heck guy lives 5 doors up seemed fine   killed a friend of mine the beat an 80 some year old man to death with a bat.  guy had lived in that same house 30 years never thought of him as a killer. i'd like to know more about this lady   maybe see the email she claims started it all

All that kind of stuff should be public record.  The list should be public record, at a minimum to the resident/homeowner.  Maintaining secret lists is just one step before using secret lists for secret purposes.  Don't make me goodwin this thread again 

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

so then anonymous tips don't exist?  heck lots of places keep lists cab companies did and we exchanged info with each other. contractors keep track of problem clients. in this case a lot depends on what this lady did to make someone list her.   if we make the lists public record the dope dealers will be the first to use the list.  to know when its time to move to a new place.

[roo_ster]

so then anonymous tips don't exist?  heck lots of places keep lists cab companies did and we exchanged info with each other. contractors keep track of problem clients. in this case a lot depends on what this lady did to make someone list her.   if we make the lists public record the dope dealers will be the first to use the list.  to know when its time to move to a new place.

Cab companies, contractors, etc. are not government entities.  There's something wrong with your analogy.

[HankB]

Maybe people who've had problems with police in that jurisdiction should get together and compile a list of bad cops - along with information like name, badge number, department, home address, Google "Street View" pictures, and all other available information?

And put it on a private, invitation-only board . . . sort of like "Amongst Friends?"

Public servants ought to have no problem with being tracked by their employers - i.e., the public they're serving - right?

[Grandpa Shooter]

The concept of neighbors snitching on neighbors is not new.  They do it here with the governments full participation and encouragement.  If you have a fire on a no burn day, you can expect someone will call it in.  The city empowers the trash truck drivers to report houses that are looking run down and they serve the people with a notice.  We have cabs on patrol, trucks on patrol, etc.

For a long time the National Guard had a plan for cordoning off the city and isolating areas or houses which had made the "potential point of resistance" list.  It was all in the name of maintaining control in the event of a domestic upheaval.

Louis Freeh, Clinton's FBI director had the top cops around the country submit a list of those groups or individuals they deemed to be "unfriendly" toward the Fed Govt.  Creating lists has been a part of human behavior for a long time.

Making a list, checking it twice is fine with me, as long as it is not the govenment or some other power hungry entity.