Author Topic: New video camera is tiny and cheap! Game changer?  (Read 13352 times)

RevDisk

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Re: New video camera is tiny and cheap! Game changer?
« Reply #25 on: January 16, 2010, 10:26:46 PM »
If I understand correctly, Sony's rootkit nonsense was well-intended, but too easy to abuse.  mtnbkr is talking about intentional mischief by the Chinese military-industrial complex.

And ya know, it doesn't sound all that strange to me. 

Sony's rootkit nonsense was not well intended (well, for the folks that got infected). 

It was poorly designed using stolen code and was coded to behave in an illegal manner.  The original rootkit opened users' computers to vulnerabilities beyond the intended damage it was designed to cause.  The part that even had my cynical fourth point of contact laughing hysterically was that the released Sony rootkit uninstaller not only did not remove the rootkit, but opened the system up to further vulnerabilities and installed more malicious code.

Sony tried to deny it, even after DHS' US-CERT (one of the few competent agencies within DHS) put out an official vulnerability notice including both the original and 'uninstaller' malicious code. 

Hell, I think the Mongol hordes had a more pleasant definition of "well intended".


As for the bugged chipsets, unfortunately, it's looking to be a huge potential issue.  The NSA and DoD are trying to quietly look at it.  But...  Lemme put it this way.  The NSA built its own chip fab facilities on its own premises.  I don't mean for manufacturing small IC's and whatnot, I mean, something to rival AMD or Intel facilities on a smaller scale.  You don't go to the trouble of making your own chips unless you think it's a significant issue. 

NSA is one of the few government agencies that legitimately scare the ever lovin' tar out of me.  I had a few brushes with them back in my crypto days.   Every single NSA employee I ever met was intelligent, well mannered, polite and knowledgeable.  Even the really hawt one in Vegas my buddy promised to put in a good word with and never did.  I've never seen something so terrifying and unnatural in my life. 
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French G.

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Re: New video camera is tiny and cheap! Game changer?
« Reply #26 on: January 16, 2010, 11:43:38 PM »
I'm no tech geek, but when DoD banned thumb drives it wasn't just because Ens. Clueless was swapping his between NIPR and SIPR, or the Seaman plugging porn into the net. Lots of thumb drives made in China...
AKA Navy Joe   

I'm so contrarian that I didn't respond to the thread.

RevDisk

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Re: New video camera is tiny and cheap! Game changer?
« Reply #27 on: January 16, 2010, 11:46:43 PM »
I'm no tech geek, but when DoD banned thumb drives it wasn't just because Ens. Clueless was swapping his between NIPR and SIPR, or the Seaman plugging porn into the net. Lots of thumb drives made in China...

Easiest way to compromise a network is to drop some thumb drives with custom malware in the parking lot or near entrances of the target.
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CNYCacher

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Re: New video camera is tiny and cheap! Game changer?
« Reply #28 on: January 16, 2010, 11:47:55 PM »
The idea of the Chinese trying to infiltrate your computer by some kind of spyware that auto-installs on your computer being deliberately shipped installed on some peripherals is somewhat ridiculous simply because it would be discovered immediately by some single-digit percentage of users who plug the thing in.
The only way that would work is if you made it some kind of auto-run executable on the flash portion of the device, which isn't something that you could hide.  And even then it would be windows-only.  Sure Sony put a rootkit on those CD's, the mere fact that you KNOW ABOUT that happening should speak to the likelihood of someone getting away with it.  Everyone knew about it!

And if you were going to worry about this, why start worrying with this particular device?  I'm going out on a limb with this: but aren't a large portion of flash-based thumb drives which almost everyone owns made in China?  Sandisk Cruzer excepted, as we already know it installs something on your computer, though I doubt it's malicious.
On two occasions, I have been asked [by members of Parliament], "Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?" I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question.
Charles Babbage

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: New video camera is tiny and cheap! Game changer?
« Reply #29 on: January 16, 2010, 11:57:12 PM »
Not jhust flash drives, but most computer hardware and software are manufactured (if not coded) in China.  Hardware, drivers, installers, software, music and movies, all down the line.  If it relies on bits and bytes in any way, odds are good that at least some part of it came from China and could potentially be "compromised".

If you're gonna bork out over video cameras that might be trojans, you'd have to be equally worried about everything else at all that you buy to use with your computer.  I see no reason to believe that these particular video cameras are special or more deserving of concern.

As for the bugged chipsets, unfortunately, it's looking to be a huge potential issue.  The NSA and DoD are trying to quietly look at it.  But...  Lemme put it this way.  The NSA built its own chip fab facilities on its own premises.  I don't mean for manufacturing small IC's and whatnot, I mean, something to rival AMD or Intel facilities on a smaller scale.  You don't go to the trouble of making your own chips unless you think it's a significant issue.  

My understanding is that NSA built their fabs because they wanted to manufacture their own custom computational devices without having to tell anyone else how they worked or what they did.  I didn't think it was because they were concerned about hardware from Intel or whomever being compromised in some way.  I'd be shocked if NSA didn't use an awful lot of hardware sourced from the usual vendors in addition to the super secret stuff they build themselves.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2010, 12:16:22 AM by Headless Thompson Gunner »

RevDisk

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Re: New video camera is tiny and cheap! Game changer?
« Reply #30 on: January 17, 2010, 12:19:47 AM »
Not jhust flash drives, but most computer hardware and software are manufactured (if not coded) in China.  Devices, drivers, installers, software, music and movies, all down the line.

If you're gonna bork out over video cameras that might be trojans, you'd have to be equally worried about everything else at all that you buy to use with your computer.  I see no reason to believe that these particular video cameras are special or more deserving of concern.

Na. the video cameras and the spyware are seperate issues.



My understanding is that NSA built their fabs because they wanted to manufacture their own custom computational devices without having to tell anyone else how they worked or what they did.  I didn't think it was because they were concerned about hardware from Intel or whomever being compromised in some way.  I'd be shocked if NSA didn't use an awful lot of hardware sourced from the usual vendors in addition to the super secret stuff they build themselves.

Let's just say it isn't just the US that worries about custom chips and its potential implications.  In fairness to the concern, we used that trick to detonate a high pressure pipeline in the USSR.  Three kt yield, and the Soviets couldn't do anything but grind their teeth.

99% of the hardware that the NSA buys is COTS.
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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: New video camera is tiny and cheap! Game changer?
« Reply #31 on: January 17, 2010, 12:31:39 AM »
Ah yes, COTS.  And we're worried about little video cameras being compromised?

If these little video camera thingies can't be trusted, then the implications are huge.  Video cameras would be the least of our concerns.  That level of paranoia would be completely paralyzing.

gunsmith

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Re: New video camera is tiny and cheap! Game changer?
« Reply #32 on: January 17, 2010, 12:33:47 AM »
I've learned a new word today.
two great words for the price of one!
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just Warren

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Re: New video camera is tiny and cheap! Game changer?
« Reply #33 on: January 17, 2010, 02:02:39 AM »
two great words for the price of one!

I'm a giver.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: New video camera is tiny and cheap! Game changer?
« Reply #34 on: January 17, 2010, 02:57:27 AM »
I'm no tech geek, but when DoD banned thumb drives it wasn't just because Ens. Clueless was swapping his between NIPR and SIPR, or the Seaman plugging porn into the net. Lots of thumb drives made in China...

Just?

I know of a guy who shut down an artilllery battery's entire C3 mechanism by bringing in a virus with his games into his 'work' computer.

Just?!
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mtnbkr

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Re: New video camera is tiny and cheap! Game changer?
« Reply #35 on: January 17, 2010, 09:04:09 AM »
The idea of the Chinese trying to infiltrate your computer by some kind of spyware that auto-installs on your computer being deliberately shipped installed on some peripherals is somewhat ridiculous simply because it would be discovered immediately by some single-digit percentage of users who plug the thing in.

Maybe, maybe not.  Some of the exploits out there are completely silent unless you have HIDS on your system that can detect it.  In one of the InfoSec classes I took, we practiced taking over machines remotely.  Those exploits gave no notification on the host side.  It was more than a little scary how much access and control one could get on a remote machine.  That was just the well known stuff already "in the wild".


Quote
And if you were going to worry about this, why start worrying with this particular device?  I'm going out on a limb with this: but aren't a large portion of flash-based thumb drives which almost everyone owns made in China?  Sandisk Cruzer excepted, as we already know it installs something on your computer, though I doubt it's malicious.

I've been worried about this for a while, but the sudden strong interest shown here was what made me say something.  Think about it for a second.  The sudden "ooh shiny" response to the original post would happen on a larger scale and a bunch of people would buy and use the device.  I'm not saying it couldn't happen elsewhere (thumbdrives, etc), just that this was a good example of such a vector.

Not jhust flash drives, but most computer hardware and software are manufactured (if not coded) in China.  Hardware, drivers, installers, software, music and movies, all down the line.  If it relies on bits and bytes in any way, odds are good that at least some part of it came from China and could potentially be "compromised".

If you're gonna bork out over video cameras that might be trojans, you'd have to be equally worried about everything else at all that you buy to use with your computer.  I see no reason to believe that these particular video cameras are special or more deserving of concern.

Truthfully, I am concerned about all devices and chips coming out of China.  The problem is overwhelming and I'm not sure what to do about it other than avoid using devices that don't at least come from  a well known company (sandisk for example).

Ah yes, COTS.  And we're worried about little video cameras being compromised?

Not just the cameras, those are just a recent example of how it could work (ooh, shiny, cheap new toy...must have!).  If it came from a known company, I might not be as bothered, but the cheap nameless stuff from China always seemed a bit hinky to me.

Quote
If these little video camera thingies can't be trusted, then the implications are huge.  Video cameras would be the least of our concerns.  That level of paranoia would be completely paralyzing.

Yup and I don't have a good answer for it.  All I know is a lot of threats come out of China these days.  Most of the hits I get in my security logs come from China.  Part of the reason Google is pulling out of China is the InfoSec threat on their systems.  I truly feel having them build our computer "stuff" is like having the USSR produce such products during the Cold War.  They aren't our friends.  Unfortunately, it's a bit late to be worried (the time was 15+ years ago).

Chris

mtnbkr

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Re: New video camera is tiny and cheap! Game changer?
« Reply #36 on: January 17, 2010, 09:14:59 AM »
Quote from: RevDisk link=topic=22639
Every single NSA employee I ever met was intelligent, well mannered, polite and knowledgeable.

My brother-in-law's wife's parents (would that make them my inlaw-inlaws? :) ), are totally unassuming middle-age folks who have painfully normal lives.  Except they have a house full of mathematics and compsci books and have worked at Ft Meade for 30-odd years. 

Chris

RevDisk

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Re: New video camera is tiny and cheap! Game changer?
« Reply #37 on: January 17, 2010, 11:28:34 PM »

Quote
Every single NSA employee I ever met was intelligent, well mannered, polite and knowledgeable.

My brother-in-law's wife's parents (would that make them my inlaw-inlaws? :) ), are totally unassuming middle-age folks who have painfully normal lives.  Except they have a house full of mathematics and compsci books and have worked at Ft Meade for 30-odd years. 

Chris

Well, are they reasonably intelligent, well mannered, polite and knowledgeable?
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CNYCacher

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Re: New video camera is tiny and cheap! Game changer?
« Reply #38 on: January 18, 2010, 12:18:34 AM »
And terrifying, don't forget terrifying.
On two occasions, I have been asked [by members of Parliament], "Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?" I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question.
Charles Babbage

mtnbkr

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Re: New video camera is tiny and cheap! Game changer?
« Reply #39 on: January 18, 2010, 12:34:00 AM »
Quote from: RevDisk link=topic=22639.msg434241
Well, are they reasonably intelligent, well mannered, polite and knowledgeable?

They seem to be.  Not at all terrifying though, unless you consider middle-aged suburbanites terrifying. :D

Chris

jackdanson

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Re: New video camera is tiny and cheap! Game changer?
« Reply #40 on: January 18, 2010, 01:29:59 AM »
So what, exactly, is the legitimate purpose of having it sound-activated?

mgdavis

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Re: New video camera is tiny and cheap! Game changer?
« Reply #41 on: January 18, 2010, 01:32:53 AM »
So what, exactly, is the legitimate purpose of having it sound-activated?

Nanny cam, although I could think of a few less legit uses for such a small device.

Balog

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Re: New video camera is tiny and cheap! Game changer?
« Reply #42 on: January 18, 2010, 02:43:14 AM »
Who was the kid that got exonerated after he covertly taped the cops interviewing him? Had an mp3 player with a record mode though iirc.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: New video camera is tiny and cheap! Game changer?
« Reply #43 on: January 20, 2010, 05:46:40 PM »
So what, exactly, is the legitimate purpose of having it sound-activated?

Video yourself.

Point camera at yourself, say your magic word, and presto. Thus avoiding recording that extra second of your hand reaching for the camera.

Failing that.... ahem.
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RevDisk

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Re: New video camera is tiny and cheap! Game changer?
« Reply #44 on: January 20, 2010, 11:10:25 PM »
Quote
Well, are they reasonably intelligent, well mannered, polite and knowledgeable?

They seem to be.  Not at all terrifying though, unless you consider middle-aged suburbanites terrifying. :D

Chris

If you meet their coworkers, you'll notice that they're quite competent and ALL possess above room temperature IQ's.  As well as polite and well mannered.  And they work for the fed.gov.   You don't consider that more terrifying than any horror movie made to date?  I worked for fed.gov in various capacities for seven years, and consider it unnatural, horrifying, and very very frightening.

My best guess on how they accomplish that is demonic pact.  Only thing that makes sense.
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brimic

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Re: New video camera is tiny and cheap! Game changer?
« Reply #45 on: January 28, 2010, 11:31:19 PM »
Alright, I finally got my camera in yesterday, it took awhile as it was shipped from Hong Kong. Total price with shipping was $26 and change.
The thing came with a few different mouting brackets which I haven't looked at yet, a landyard, a driver disk, and a USB cable. I tried the driver disk which turned out to be useless. I plugged the camera into my laptop and it read as an empty drive. I looked closely at the camera and noticed that there is a slot for a micro SD card. I put it away for the night.  Today I stopped at Best Buy on the way home from work and paid $12 for a micro SD card (I'm in $~39 now). When I got it home, I plugged in the card, and played with it. There are three button on the camera: mode, a button marked with a couple of squares, and a power button. I pressed buttons in random order and pointed the camera at different objects in the house to try to figure  out how it works by trial and error (there are no instructions included with the camera). I eventually turned to the nexus of all knowledge and entertainment- YouTube, to figure out how it works and found it to be pretty simple.

Dimensionally its pretty small, smaller than I had imagined, about the size of my thumb. In fact I just noticed that I lost the stupid thing as I'm sitting on my recliner writing up this review :mad:

The video quality is suprisingly good, but is a bit choppy if you pan to quickly. It also records sound.

I'm pretty happy with it now that I figured out how it works. It will be a neat accessory to attach to the bill of my hat on fishing and hunting outings.


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Marnoot

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Re: New video camera is tiny and cheap! Game changer?
« Reply #46 on: January 28, 2010, 11:46:38 PM »
The driver disc has a .doc file that is the manual. ;)

brimic

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Re: New video camera is tiny and cheap! Game changer?
« Reply #47 on: January 29, 2010, 01:07:56 AM »
Quote
The driver disc has a .doc file that is the manual

I think its in chinese or something, it won't open. ;/
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Marnoot

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Re: New video camera is tiny and cheap! Game changer?
« Reply #48 on: January 29, 2010, 01:19:30 AM »
Ah. Mine was in poorly translated English.  :P

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Re: New video camera is tiny and cheap! Game changer?
« Reply #49 on: January 29, 2010, 09:51:16 AM »
Engrish?  =D
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