Author Topic: Am I out of line to complain?  (Read 13231 times)

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Am I out of line to complain?
« Reply #100 on: December 14, 2011, 12:54:49 PM »
i've managed rentals for quite a few folks for decades and my experiences are more like brads.  but then again i dealt with the full range of leases  not just those that ended up in court
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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BridgeRunner

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Re: Am I out of line to complain?
« Reply #101 on: December 14, 2011, 01:53:04 PM »
Brad said it a little more delicately (I think).

But I read Selby's argument as "I know I'm right, and I am so sure I'm right, that I'm not gonna even bother to look it up, just in case I'm not right."

Or, alternatively, I read it as:  "I'm sure I'm right.  Because I have to be right.  But my statement is vague enough so that when I *am* proved wrong, I can then claim that I meant something else entirely."

Y'know, I'm not sure what you're talking about here. There appear to be three conversational threads

1) what is a lease and what interests and obligations does in confer on each party?

2) Is the op likely bein unfairly intruded upon

3) Are renters, by defintion, over-entitled jackasses who destroy other people's stuff for the fun of it.

If that is an accurate summary, then:

1) yes, de Selby and I are totally right, completely right, so right as to not being interested in bothering to did a citation. Besides I sold back my Propert II casebook, and don't have Westlaw access, and don't care all that much to bother "proving" something so basic. Well, at least that's wher I stand on the matter. Far be it from me to speak for De Selby

2) No, he isn't. Everyone seems to agree on this exept DS, who only said "if something is happening other than what you expressly stated is happening, then it may be" or words to that effect. That seems to feed into DS's need to be contrarian without actually inventing law.

3) Doesn't really deserve to be dignified with a response. I made the mistake of doing so, Brad read a contradiction where what existed was specualtion on an alternative explanation, Brad then decided to try to prove that based on his exprrence, the only experience that counts, if x, then y. Ok, you want to trash me as a person because I signed a lease. That's kind of stupid, particularly considering the psychology involved arriving at that conclusion, but all that is irrelevant.  The whole argument is irrelevant to reality because X, where X is Brad's definition of a lease, is flat-out wrong. See item 1.

AJ Dual

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Re: Am I out of line to complain?
« Reply #102 on: December 14, 2011, 02:19:09 PM »
I'd go with the lady who passed the bar to practice law on this one.  ;)

Of course there are differences in lease and contract law from state to state, but none that I'm aware of describe a lease as providing or granting the privilege of occupying or living in a certain location.

"Privilege" vs. "Interest" have very different and specific legal meanings. Ones that have teeth. One very quick and dirty way of explaining it is that a legal interest in something may contain certain privileges, privileges are generally not considered to contain or convey any interests.

In geometry, the concept of "rectangles" contains "squares", but as a concept, squares does not contain rectangles.

If a property owner truly desires to merely sell the privilege to occupy/live in/on some property for a set period of time for a set amount of money, in any U.S. state, rather than certain defined interests, they'll have to use some other legal instrument than a "lease" to do so.

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AmbulanceDriver

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Re: Am I out of line to complain?
« Reply #103 on: December 14, 2011, 02:34:27 PM »
As to #3, I don't think anyone has said that renters, by definition, are over-entitled jackasses who destroy other people's stuff for the fun of it.  

Even Brad has said that his experiences (in re: to #3) have colored his perception, but I don't think he was making a blanket statement about all renters, yourself included.  Bridge, you may be the model renter - pay the rent early, keep the place spotless, turn it back over in better condition than when you moved in, and be quiet as a churchmouse so as to not disturb your neighbors.  That doesn't change the fact that in Brad' experience, he has seen that a significant portion, maybe even a majority, now again *OF HIS EXPERIENCES* have ended up being over-entitled jackasses who destroy other people's stuff for the fun of it.  

As to a lease - I am not a lawyer, nor have I rented a room from Holiday Inn Express lately - but the leases I signed as a tenant all gave me specific rights and privileges in exchange for my rent.  One of those privileges was freedom from being intruded upon without proper notice from the landlord except in the case of an emergency.  Of course, the definition of what constituted an emergency was not exactly spelled out, but needless to say, we had some recourse.  State law also provided us, as tenants, with certain rights which the landlord must abide by, and Oregon is one of those states that's notoriously tenant-friendly in regards to the law.

As to the OP:

Yes, it was inconvenient for the landlord to only provide you with effectively 12 hours notice in your case.  But the fact that you did not receive said notice in a timely manner does not change the fact that they did not post the notices with more than 24 hours of warning.  So while inconvenient, they were still well within the terms of the lease and the law (so far as we can tell).  That being said, you have fairly limited options:

1)  You can just deal with it,  Two 24 hour notices to enter in a 1 year period is quite frankly not the end of the world.  Sorry if that sounds harsh, but that's less than a 1% rate of occurrence in a year.  Yeah, it sucks, but like I said, it's not the end of the world.  Additionally, your choice of living conditions (as a former slob myself, I can completely empathize) means that when they do tack up those notices, you have to clean up.  That's part of your choice of living style, and can't really be helped.  Again, as a former slob myself, I can completely empathize.  Those marathon cleaning sessions do suck, but it's part of your decision.  

2)  You can talk to the management and ask for them to provide a little more notice when possible, because of your work/study/sleep schedule.  Remember, they are not required to provide you with any more notice than what they did give you, and the answer may very well be no.  I hate to say it, but your schedule is not their problem.  As long as they abide by the terms of the lease and applicable state law.  And that has nothing to do with when you GET the notice, and everything to do with when they post it.  

3)  You can change your living situation.  While buying a house may not be feasible for you at the moment, you CAN move.  Is it worth the hassle and expense of moving to avoid this problem?  With no guarantee that you won't find the same problem wherever else you move to?  Ultimately, that's your call.  

I'm not trying to sound unsympathetic here.  I've experienced much the same thing you've gone through, including the 24 hour notice that they were gonna show the place.  Lemme tell ya, that was a helluva marathon cleaning session, but I knew it was well within their rights.  And yeah, I was working nights at the time.  6PM to 6AM, and that shift sucked that night.  But the apartment was only shown one time in the 3 years we lived there.  Were there other visits for maintenance issues?  Absolutely.  Some of them at my request, some at their request, and yeah, some of them weren't convenient for me.  And yeah, sometimes I had to take a day off from work to make sure I was gonna be there when the maintenance folks were.  And yes, on a couple of occasions I did come home to find a notice on my door that they'd had to come in for an "emergency" (one of them actually was, a plugged drainage pipe was causing our sink to flood with sewage).  Those are the hazards of living in rented housing.  And frankly, the only way to truly avoid them is to not live in rented housing.   So while the "buy a house" crowd may have seemed a bit callous, ultimately, they are right....
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zxcvbob

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Re: Am I out of line to complain?
« Reply #104 on: December 14, 2011, 02:38:15 PM »
Well, damn Brad, if I knew we were comparing dick sizes, I woulda' strapped mine on.  Also, you totally missed my point. 

Or am I not allowed to have one?  After all, I rent.

I did not know one could rent such things...
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BridgeRunner

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Re: Am I out of line to complain?
« Reply #105 on: December 14, 2011, 03:17:42 PM »
I did not know one could rent such things...

See, it's not what you know, it's who you know.  :O

Jamie B

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Re: Am I out of line to complain?
« Reply #106 on: December 14, 2011, 03:35:31 PM »
I did not know one could rent such things...
They have them at the pawn shop.
They belong to the married guys who no longer use/need them.
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T.O.M.

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Re: Am I out of line to complain?
« Reply #107 on: December 14, 2011, 03:43:37 PM »
Wow, I go away and do some Christmas shopping and some work, next thing I know everyone is dropping their pants and pulling out rulers.

Bottom line as I see it (as your Merry Magistrate), the OP has no legal grounds to stand on in terms of a violation of his lease.  I suggest he start cleaning the place more than once a laundry/dishes cycle on the off-chance he may want to entertain a lady friend, and for his own sanity.  As for the renters vs. owners issue, I'll pass. I've rented, and tried renting to another once and only once.  Don't want to go down that road again.
No, I'm not mtnbkr.  ;)

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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Am I out of line to complain?
« Reply #108 on: December 14, 2011, 04:51:12 PM »
They have them at the pawn shop.
They belong to the married guys who no longer use/need them.

touche
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Harold Tuttle

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Re: Am I out of line to complain?
« Reply #109 on: December 14, 2011, 04:58:14 PM »
one might wonder why the OP feels compelled to clean up for a handyman to access the abode.
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De Selby

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Re: Am I out of line to complain?
« Reply #110 on: December 14, 2011, 05:42:29 PM »
Brad said it a little more delicately (I think).

But I read Selby's argument as "I know I'm right, and I am so sure I'm right, that I'm not gonna even bother to look it up, just in case I'm not right."

Or, alternatively, I read it as:  "I'm sure I'm right.  Because I have to be right.  But my statement is vague enough so that when I *am* proved wrong, I can then claim that I meant something else entirely."

Yeah, no - with BW on this one.  It's so fundamental it doesn't merit citing.  It does highlight something from my own experience though - most property managers don't actually know the law in their jurisdiction.  That's one of the reasons landlords tend to get hosed in court. 

But most landlords don't end up in court, even when they're in the wrong.  Too hard for tenants to do so.                                                                                                 
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Am I out of line to complain?
« Reply #111 on: December 14, 2011, 05:46:37 PM »
Yeah, no - with BW on this one.  It's so fundamental it doesn't merit citing.  It does highlight something from my own experience though - most property managers don't actually know the law in their jurisdiction.  That's one of the reasons landlords tend to get hosed in court. 

But most landlords don't end up in court, even when they're in the wrong.  Too hard for tenants to do so.                                                                                                 

why am i reminded of the blind man who said "an elephant is like a rope"
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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GigaBuist

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Re: Am I out of line to complain?
« Reply #112 on: December 14, 2011, 10:29:33 PM »
one might wonder why the OP feels compelled to clean up for a handyman to access the abode.

Indeed.

I didn't read the whole thread, just the OP, left it, and now I'm back.

When I was a bachelor I rented the same apartment for 6 years and I was a slob.  Computer parts, networking gear, ammo boxes, gun parts, etc. all over the place.  Early on I wasn't much of a slob (didn't have much stuff) but I tidied up real good before inspectors came in.   Toward the end of my time there I just stopped caring.  If they were there to inspect the plumbing I made sure I didn't have any dirty clothes in the bathroom and the kitchen sink was empty.  If they were there to inspect the furnace I made sure nothing was blocking access.

If you have a compulsion to make the place spotless before a handyman shows up, well, you ain't the kind of tenant that needs to worry about being booted for having a filthy place.