What's good for the gooseses....

[Perd Hapley]

This question is for those who favor laws against drugs.  I haven't made up my mind on it, so maybe you can help me figure things out.  

I tend to the drug warrior position, but if I take that view, it would seem to me that alcohol and tobacco should also be banned.  One of the most ardent "drug warriors" on the board is also somewhat of a conniseur of alcoholic beverages.  So, why should drugs like alcohol and tobacco be legal, but not crack, marijuana or others?

[charby]

Kind of how I feel. Smart people will use in moderation or not use at all. We should all be able to choose our own destiny/fate.

-C

[cordex]

So, why should drugs like alcohol and tobacco be legal, but not crack, marijuana or others?

I believe the typical response to that is:
"My drugs are [just different/socially acceptable/less harmful/less psychoactive/less addictive/less fun/cooler/already legal], so they are obviously different and should not be regulated.  You're just a pothead who wants to smoke pot.  Pothead."

To which the anti-drug-control supporter replies:
"Well, studies have proven that [pot/crack/heroine/cocaine/LSD/PCP/MSG/Trans-fatty-acids] is less addictive, less harmful and generally heathful and beneficial to the world than your drugs.  You're just a facist who wants to control me."

The response to that is:
"You're an anarchist and a barbarian!  I'm apalled that you would speak ill of my [fine booze/tobacco] in such a fashion.  Mine can be enjoyed, but yours can only be abused!  Alcohol and tobacco are harmless fluffybunnies compared to your drugs!"

And after a bit, everyone realizes the same arguments have been made over and over and over again with no one changing their minds because on the one hand we've got people who believe you can do whatever you want to your own body and on the other hand we've got folks who believe you can do whatever they want to your body and what either side considers reasonable and self-evident, the other side considers absurd.

Didn't you run almost this exact thread a few months ago, fistful?

Edit: Maybe not, but it sure feels like we've done this not too long ago.

[Sindawe]

Didn't you run almost this exact thread a few months ago, fistful?

Edit: Maybe not, but it sure feels like we've done this not too long ago.

That because we've danced this jig so many times that we all know each other moves.  

I've come to the point that trying to debate with the "drug warriors" is akin to trying to teach a pig to sing.  It does nothing but waste my time and bore the pig.  So being a magnanimous sort, I leave the "drug warriors" to their folly.

[Perd Hapley]

No, I don't believe I've ever started any threads on drug laws.  I could be wrong though.  I have previously stated my ambivelance on the issue in other threads.  Perhaps that's what you remember.

I respectfully ask you all to delete your predictions on what the prohibitionists will say.

This question is for those who favor laws against drugs.

I said that for a reason.  I will appreciate the pro-legalization response, but only after hearing the actual arguments of prohibitionists.  Your comments so far are muddying the waters.

FWIW, I have never used illegal drugs and currently only use caffeine and the occasional aspirin - no alcohol or tobacco.

[Devonai]

I agree that opiates and cocaine derivatives should be illegal.  I am no expert but it seems like these drugs are too addictive and can result in more rapid health deterioration.  The War On Drugs is not working, however. Unfortunately I do not have the experience to even begin to suggest how to keep these drugs illegal without a massive expenditure of taxpayer money.  After all, there is still a huge market for cheap cigarettes through routes that make them illegal, so legalization with regulation (for the hard stuff) is not the answer either.  I simply don't know.

However, I see no reason why Marijuana and LSD should be illegal.  The former is no more dangerous or prone to abuse than alcohol and tobacco, and the latter may not have any ill health effects at all.  I would have no problem with those substances being made legal and regulated in the same way as tobacco and alcohol.

I have never used illegal drugs of any kind.  I have had many opportunities to smoke pot, heck, I lived in the same building with friends who were "420 friendly" and I could have been toking up 3-4 times a week if I wanted.  I simply had another priority: keeping my firearms and carry permits.  If marijuana is legalized I will probably try it, but I don't like getting "messed up" so if it was too powerful I would not use it.

[The Rabbi]

This question is for those who favor laws against drugs.  I haven't made up my mind on it, so maybe you can help me figure things out.  

I tend to the drug warrior position, but if I take that view, it would seem to me that alcohol and tobacco should also be banned.  One of the most ardent "drug warriors" on the board is also somewhat of a conniseur of alcoholic beverages.  So, why should drugs like alcohol and tobacco be legal, but not crack, marijuana or others?

I think you at least partially answered your own question.

How many "connoiseurs" of crack cocaine do you know?  How many afficionados of methamphetamine have you met?
Again, I get back to a basic observation: the greater intelligence recognizes subtler distinctions.
A person can be a drinker and never get drunk in his life.  But I have yet to see someone use drugs who didnt get high.
then there are practical argumetns, which always fall on deaf ears.  Alcohol and tobacco have been parts of American culture back to the earliest times of this country.  They occupy a socially acceptable place (less so now for tobacco) in society and the cost to ban them would outweigh any social benefit.  The same is not true for drugs.  Please do not post ads from the 1890s advertising opiates.  My grandparents never used them for recreation and neither did yours.
I don't expect anyone to subscribe to this view.  Most people here already have their minds made up.

[Perd Hapley]

Thanks, Rabbi.  You are of course the connoiseur to which I referred.  What about milder drugs like marijuana?

[The Rabbi]

Thanks, Rabbi.  You are of course the connoiseur to which I referred.  What about milder drugs like marijuana?

I have less objection to marijuana for all the reasons that have already been given.

[Felonious Monk/Fignozzle]

I find that the only reason marijuana can be construed as a "gateway" drug is because of its classification as illegal.

When someone has to break the law to get it, he's dealing with criminals.  Criminals will sell you anything they can profit with, so if he's got pot in one hand and coke in the other, the person *might* say 'yeah, gimme an 8-ball of that coke, too'.

It's proximity is the only thing that makes it a gateway drug.

I spent nearly 20 years smoking pot, and the hallucinogenics were where my interest laid.  Hashish is just another cannabis derivative.

I never tried coke, heroin, opium, or anything else, and never wanted to.  
Once it became a paranoid nightmare every time I got high (about 15 years ago), I stopped completely.

The use of marijuana is less physically detrimental than alcohol, but saps energy, initiative, and motivation.  A huge number of thirty-something potheads live in their parents' basement, and have little or no aspiration for more.

I think decriminalizing marijuana/hash would remove the rebellious appeal of it, separate it from heavy and debilitating drugs like meth, cocaine, and heroin, and allow for tax revenues from the sale.

[Gewehr98]

That scares me, it's so true.

A huge number of thirty-something potheads live in their parents' basement, and have little or no aspiration for more.

Witness my 24 and 26 year old stepsons, living in my basement, screaming at each other while playing Warcraft from 6 PM to 8 AM, and alluding to me as the "Piggy" because I am in the hiring process for the sheriff's department, putting a crimp in their plans to resume their 420 routine after I retired from my military career.  

As my wife and I reminded them, they're more than welcome to move to Washington State with their father and do what they will sans my house rules.  The only problem with that is their father wouldn't tolerate the lack of motivation and initiative, either, and they know it.  

That latest public service message on TV is rather neat, showing the potheads sitting baked on the couch, while life passes them by.

[charby]

That scares me, it's so true.

A huge number of thirty-something potheads live in their parents' basement, and have little or no aspiration for more.

Witness my 24 and 26 year old stepsons, living in my basement, screaming at each other while playing Warcraft from 6 PM to 8 AM, and alluding to me as the "Piggy" because I am in the hiring process for the sheriff's department, putting a crimp in their plans to resume their 420 routine after I retired from my military career.  

As my wife and I reminded them, they're more than welcome to move to Washington State with their father and do what they will sans my house rules.  The only problem with that is their father wouldn't tolerate the lack of motivation and initiative, either, and they know it.  

That latest public service message on TV is rather neat, showing the potheads sitting baked on the couch, while life passes them by.

Sounds like you need to find their secret stash and add too it some very finely chopped dog hair.

[BrokenPaw]

That scares me, it's so true.

A huge number of thirty-something potheads live in their parents' basement, and have little or no aspiration for more.

Witness my 24 and 26 year old stepsons, living in my basement, screaming at each other while playing Warcraft from 6 PM to 8 AM...

Sounds like you need to find their secret stash and add too it some very finely chopped dog hair.

Sounds like he needs to invite them to pursue a different place of residence.  To do otherwise is to enable and tacitly endorse sloth and slackassery.  

Granted, since they're Gewehr's stepsons, his hands may be tied in the matter of their geospatial coordinates.  But there's no way my stepkids would ever be allowed to continue living in my home if they made a practice of insulting me.  Fortunately 1.5 of them are good kids.

With respect to Fistful's subject:  I favor legalization because I believe that people should be free to make choices about what they do with and to themselves.  That said, intoxication of any intentional kind should be an automatic aggravating circumstance in the case of any crime committed.  Kill someone while driving stoned/drunk/high?  Oops, that's premeditation, that is, mate.  You knew the risk before you toked/drank/snorted.

-BP

[Lee]

"Witness my 24 and 26 year old stepsons, living in my basement, screaming at each other while playing Warcraft from 6 PM to 8 AM.."

No offense, but someone is seriously enabling that behavior.  Conversely, would you prefer that they boozed it up in the basement and smashed each other (or you) with pool cues?  

I agree that pot tends to de-motivate young people, but so does booze.  That's also why some overly motivated adults enjoy it...just as they might enjoy winding down with a good brandy. The only real distinction between nearly all drugs, and poison, is dosage.

I prefer decriminalization and education for drugs that are not very addictive or destructive.  Hard drugs should never be legal...but their users need long term treatment, not long term prison sentences.

[Perd Hapley]

Hard drugs should never be legal...but their users need long term treatment, not long term prison sentences.

Can't a prison sentence be a treatment of a sort, at least in some cases?

[charby]

like a prison wall ever stopped drugs and firearms from getting in

[Perd Hapley]

With respect to Fistful's subject:  I favor legalization because I believe that people should be free to make choices about what they do with and to themselves.  That said, intoxication of any intentional kind should be an automatic aggravating circumstance in the case of any crime committed.  Kill someone while driving stoned/drunk/high?  Oops, that's premeditation, that is, mate.  You knew the risk before you toked/drank/snorted.

Believe me, I also want people to be able to do what they want to themselves.  Otherwise, I'd be firmly in the prohibitionist camp.  But I think it's a little odd that premeditation would be charged against a person who committed the crime due to their lack of ability to "meditate."



Charby, I was referring to the disincentive effect of having to go to prison.  I see your point, though.

[SADShooter]

fistful:

Re: "meditation". I drink. Sometimes I drink to the point of intoxication, and have gone well beyond it in the past. My premeditation occurs at the point of knowingly ingesting an impairment-inducing substance. If someone else is harmed as a result of my impaired state, I see that as comparable to a conscious decision to harm that person, in that I inhibited my ability to prevent said harm.

[BrokenPaw]

But I think it's a little odd that premeditation would be charged against a person who committed the crime due to their lack of ability to "meditate."

No, see, it makes perfect sense:

People who can't yet "meditate" are by definition in a "pre-meditated" state, see?  

-BP

Edited to add:  Yeah, what SADSHooter said.

[Perd Hapley]

I drink. Sometimes I drink to the point of intoxication, and have gone well beyond it in the past. My premeditation occurs at the point of knowingly ingesting an impairment-inducing substance. If someone else is harmed as a result of my impaired state, I see that as comparable to a conscious decision to harm that person, in that I inhibited my ability to prevent said harm.

And you still drink?

[SADShooter]

Yes, under conditions which I do my darndest to ensure in advance won't result in such a situation.

[Gewehr98]

It's a tough love thing.

No offense, but someone is seriously enabling that behavior.  Conversely, would you prefer that they boozed it up in the basement and smashed each other (or you) with pool cues?

You'd best pray you never marry a single mom with two adult sons, then.  

Suffice it to say, it's not me enabling things.  Eldest stepson also drinks like a fish, much to my chagrine.  I say that, having lost an older brother to a drunk driver many years ago...

Were they to try to smash each other, it's the Darwin theory.

Were they to try to smash me, the outcome would be very predictable, 200gr SWCHP rounds to COM until the attack stopped, family or not.  He who lives, wins.

[charby]

Geeses..  

Fistful are you watching Charlie in the Chocolate Factory? (the newer one with Johnny Depp)

[Sindawe]

My grandparents never used them for recreation and neither did yours.

OK, you knew YOUR grandparents, but did you know ALL the details of their lives?  I've known my last surviving grandparent for four plus decades and I'm STILL discovering things about their lives I never knew.  Did you personally know my grandparents?  Or for period accuracy, did you know my great grandparents and THEIR parents?

Witness my 24 and 26 year old stepsons, living in my basement, screaming at each other while playing Warcraft from 6 PM to 8 AM, and alluding to me as the "Piggy" because I am in the hiring process for the sheriff's department, putting a crimp in their plans to resume their 420 routine after I retired from my military career.

OUCH!  Assisting offspring when they fall on hard times is one thing, as is living in an extended family household were all contribute to the upkeep of the home, but this is beyond the pale.

I prefer decriminalization and education for drugs that are not very addictive or destructive.  Hard drugs should never be legal...but their users need long term treatment, not long term prison sentences.

Rather than keep the hard drugs verboten, I'd prefer to see them available to true addicts ONLY while under the care of a physician, paid for out of THEIR own pockets.

[The Rabbi]

My grandparents never used them for recreation and neither did yours.

OK, you knew YOUR grandparents, but did you know ALL the details of their lives?  I've known my last surviving grandparent for four plus decades and I'm STILL discovering things about their lives I never knew.  Did you personally know my grandparents?  Or for period accuracy, did you know my great grandparents and THEIR parents?

Did you discover that your grandparents were recreational drug users?  No, I didnt think so either.