Author Topic: What's good for the gooseses....  (Read 13307 times)

The Rabbi

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What's good for the gooseses....
« Reply #50 on: October 01, 2006, 03:27:09 AM »
Heaven forbid anyone should be tagged with the label of hypocrite, the ultimate sin on our society.
Alcohol is not a recreational drug, any more than chocolate is a recreational drug.  You are stooping to CAnoneer's reductio ad absurdam: crack=alcohol=tobacco=fast food.
The arguments in favor of continuing legal alcohol use are legion, and in no way applicable to drugs.
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Art Eatman

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« Reply #51 on: October 01, 2006, 04:36:02 AM »
Okay:  I read the first few posts.  This thread is much like several others through the years at TFL and THR, so I'll make it short.

I have some 56 years of "hands on" experience of doing a bit of my own drinking and watching a bunch of others who either were around me as customers or were in one of my night clubs.  And, "just sittin' and sippin'."

Driniking as drinking doesn't hurt anything.  Drinking too much for your circumstances is stupid--as in driving a car, etc.  Getting drunk is one way of betting that evolution doesn't work.  

Health?  Last I read "the numbers", some 300,000 or so die from health problems associated with booze.  IIRC, it's some 400,000 from tobacco-related problems.  BUT:  30,000 from health problems associated with drugs.

From a health standpoint, then, drugs are a minor problem.  That said, they're seen to be more tragic because the victims tend to be much younger than us old farts who are the ones dealing with the cumulative effects of booze and smoking.

Crack babies, for instance, are a helluva problem on an individual basis.  Who gives a hoot about some old alky with a bad case of the Jakeleg?

Crime and drugs:  It's a tradeoff.  You would have probably ten percent as much crime if all drugs were legal.  After the first spurt of all sorts of BS if all drugs were legalized, things would settle down as things always have.  Just like when Prohibition was ended.  A spike in use and then the lure of the illicit was gone.

Hey, when I turned 21 and it was legal for me to drink, the fun was pretty much gone and I mostly quit for a few years.  Drank a lot less, anyhow.  Gotta remember that I was in the Army and overseas during that era, but the reduction still occurred.

If drugs were legal, there'd be less of an assault on the Bill of Rights, which has been the real target of the so-called War on Drugs.  The violence associated with turf wars has caused much of the abuse of the Second Amendment, and we've all commented about what's happened to the Fourth and Fifth Amendments.  Me, I'd like to have them back.

Money:  For all levels of government, we spend way north of $50 billion a year.  That's a lot of dough that could go into anti-drug education, among other uses.  It would also bankrupt a bunch of evil bastards around the world who are now making money from drugs and using that money to fund "guns against government".  Colombia comes to mind, instantly.   Afghanistan, where John Shirley happens to be, right now.

So I really don't give a hoot about anybody's moral views against booze and drugs.  I try to live in a real world, not a dream world.  If a person functions okay and doesn't harm the neighbors, what he does is his business.  If a person does too much booze or drugs and harms somebody else, shame on his sorry butt; Graybar Hotel, thank you.

Seems simple enough.  Punish folks for whatever bad thing they did, not for what they might do.

Sounds like a gun argument, doesn't it?

Art
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Perd Hapley

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« Reply #52 on: October 01, 2006, 12:48:06 PM »
Quote from: In another thread, fistful
Drugs and guns are a very poor analogy.  Guns have a positive effect on society that drugs cannot match.  Take all guns away tomorrow, and the weak would be helpless against the strong.  Take all illegal drugs away tomorrow, and even booze and tobacco...what negative consequences might there be?
Art, your comments have enough cogency without the gun comparison.
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Monkeyleg

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« Reply #53 on: October 01, 2006, 01:29:55 PM »
My wife and I just found out yesterday that her crackhead brother was evicted from the flophouse he was living in because he was causing so many disruptions.

How do you get kicked out of a flophouse?

He's only been out of jail for a couple of months, and this was the only place that he could find to rent, given his record.

So now he's just on the streets, looking for anyone who will let him stay. But he's burned every bridge with everyone he knows.

So, the next step is to get him back in jail for non-payment of child support. But first the cops have to find him (he's very good at running from the law).

This is a guy who's extremely likeable when he's straight, had a good job as a press operator for a printing company, and generally had everything going for him.

Everytime he gets out of jail after a six or nine-month stay, he says he's going straight.

Maybe he means it at first. What if there were rehab centers that offered more extensive treatment?

He's going to do drugs whether they're legal or not. I'm thinking that, if they were legal, at least he'd have a better chance of getting rehabilitated...if he wants to.

cordex

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« Reply #54 on: October 02, 2006, 07:40:15 AM »
Quote
Alcohol is not a recreational drug
Are you serious, Rabbi?  How exactly do you define "recreational drug" so that alcohol is not considered one?

Rabbi, alcohol is a drug.  As it is used in society today, it is a recreational drug.  If you deny this then you're arguing from an undefendable position without basis in reality.
Quote
You are stooping to CAnoneer's reductio ad absurdam: crack=alcohol=tobacco=fast food.
Something tells me you didn't read my post.  I said that if you believe that recreational drug use is okay, you should apply objective standards to drugs to determine whether or not they should be allowed.

richyoung

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« Reply #55 on: October 02, 2006, 09:55:13 AM »
Quote from: The Rabbi
Quote from: Sindawe
Quote
Did you discover that your grandparents were recreational drug users?  No, I didnt think so either.
Actually, yes they are/were.  Their drugs of choice happened to be ethyl alcohol and nicotine.  Legal and accepted in our culture at the moment, but recreational drugs none the less.

The point I was making which either you did not get (which would be my failing), or chose to ignore (more likely in my opinion given the cognitive abilities you have demonstrated with other topics) was that you made a statement about peoples activities when you have zero knowledge of the persons in question or their habits.
Thanks.  You proved my point that 1) illegal drug use for recreational purposes was pretty much unknown, 2) when confronted with contradictory evidence or detrimental questions you waffle out of it and call names.  This is consistent with your behavior here.  If anyone is making statements about people's activities it is you.
The overwhelming majority of "patent medicines" sold at the time contained not only alcohol, (one way of getting around "dry county" laws...) but also opiates of some form, and sometimes even cocaine.  In fact, coca-cola, originally formulated as a "hangover remedy" contained... caffiene and cocaine.  If the pre-"pure food and drug act" days, it was entirely possible to be recreational drug users without even knowing it.  This is a proud tradition carried on today by the likes of Nite-ol, Geritol, Vicks 44D, and energy drinks.
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richyoung

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« Reply #56 on: October 02, 2006, 10:05:34 AM »
Quote from: The Rabbi
But these were restricted to the avant-garde.  The average American did not use drugs, mostly was ignorant of them.
Opiates, in the form of paragoric or laudenum among others, wither pure or in combination with other ingredients, were commonly used in sore throat lozenges, asthma treatments, digestive treatments, etc.  Cocaine was a common ingredient in totthache and earache remedies, "restorative wines", etc.  Amphetemine, in the form of benzedrine, was commonly available in inhaler form - airlines passed them out into the fifties.
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richyoung

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« Reply #57 on: October 02, 2006, 10:28:07 AM »
Quote from: The Rabbi
Thanks.  You proved my point that 1) illegal drug use for recreational purposes was pretty much unknown, 2) ...
From http://www.answers.com/topic/laudanum


"The Romantic and Victorian eras were marked by the widespread use of laudanum in Europe, and the United States. Initially a working class drug, laudanum was cheaper than a bottle of gin or wine, because it was treated as a medication for legal purposes and not taxed as an alcoholic beverage."
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The Rabbi

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« Reply #58 on: October 02, 2006, 04:54:08 PM »
Quote from: cordex
Quote
Alcohol is not a recreational drug
Are you serious, Rabbi?  How exactly do you define "recreational drug" so that alcohol is not considered one?

Rabbi, alcohol is a drug.  As it is used in society today, it is a recreational drug.  If you deny this then you're arguing from an undefendable position without basis in reality.
Quote
You are stooping to CAnoneer's reductio ad absurdam: crack=alcohol=tobacco=fast food.
Something tells me you didn't read my post.  I said that if you believe that recreational drug use is okay, you should apply objective standards to drugs to determine whether or not they should be allowed.
How do you define recreational drug?
On your theory nutmeg is a recreational drug. So are bannanas.
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Stand_watie

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« Reply #59 on: October 02, 2006, 05:17:35 PM »
Alcohol is definitely a recreational drug, if not always used as such.
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Stand_watie

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« Reply #60 on: October 02, 2006, 05:24:11 PM »
This thread reminds me of a John Hooker song

John Lee Hooker
One bourbon, one scotch, and one beer
One bourbon, one scotch, and one beer
Hey mister bartender come here
I want another drink and I want it now

My baby she gone, she been gone two night
I ain't seen my baby since night before last
One bourbon, one scotch, and one beer

(Spoken)
And then I sit there, gettin' high, mellow
Knocked out, feeling good and by the time
I looked on the wall at the old clock on the wall
By that time, it was ten thirty daddy

I looked down the bar, at the bartender
He said, "Now what do you want Johnny?"

One bourbon, one scotch, and one beer

Well my baby she gone, she been gone two night
I ain't seen my baby since night before last
I wanna get drunk till I'm off of my mind
One bourbon, one scotch, and one beer

(Spoken)
And I sat there, gettin' high, stoned
Knocked out, and by the time
I looked on the wall, at the old clock again
And by that time, it was a quarter to two

Last call for alcohol, I said,
Hey mister bartender, what do you want?"

One bourbon, one scotch, and one beer
One bourbon, one scotch, and one beer
One bourbon, one scotch, and one beer
Yizkor. Lo Od Pa'am

"You can have my gun when you pry it from my cold dead fingers"

"Never again"

"Malone Labe"

Perd Hapley

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« Reply #61 on: October 02, 2006, 07:54:01 PM »
Stand_waitie, you've just confused a bunch of people who thought that was a Thoroughgood song.  Wink
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doczinn

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« Reply #62 on: October 02, 2006, 08:02:12 PM »
Blasphemy!
D. R. ZINN

Perd Hapley

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« Reply #63 on: October 02, 2006, 08:09:44 PM »
What's blasphemy?
"Doggies are angel babies!" -- my wife

doczinn

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« Reply #64 on: October 02, 2006, 08:27:22 PM »
The idea that that song could be anything but classic John Lee Hooker!
D. R. ZINN

Third_Rail

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« Reply #65 on: October 02, 2006, 08:38:46 PM »
Rabbi, when used for cooking, alcohol is an ingredient. When used to "relax" or get buzzed, it's most certainly a drug.

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« Reply #66 on: October 02, 2006, 10:12:50 PM »
Quote
How do you define recreational drug?
On your theory nutmeg is a recreational drug. So are bannanas.
A recreational drug is something one uses specifically to alter their consciousness. Nutmeg is a recreational drug when it's used as one, which is highly uncommon... And I don't know why you're talking about bananas, unless you're referring to a really old, disproven myth spread by the Anarchist's Cookbook.

Sindawe

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« Reply #67 on: October 02, 2006, 10:23:33 PM »
Quote
And I don't know why you're talking about bananas, unless you're referring to a really old, disproven myth spread by the Anarchist's Cookbook.
Maybe because bananas are high in K, which IIRC is used by neural tissue to create a higher electrochemical potential across the cell membrane and transmit impulses down the ganglions to the synapses.

High potential = stronger impulses

Stronger impulses = more vivid dreams

More vivid dreams = recreational activity during sleep

Hark, what is that I hear?  A hand of yellow fruit calling my name?
I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do.

The Rabbi

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« Reply #68 on: October 03, 2006, 05:07:10 AM »
They call me Mellow Yellow.  Quite rightly.
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cordex

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« Reply #69 on: October 03, 2006, 06:23:41 AM »
Quote
How do you define recreational drug?
On your theory nutmeg is a recreational drug. So are bannanas.
And so is chocolate, sure, sure.

Many things contain very mild drugs in extremely small dosages that have little or no noticable psychoactive effect on the user.  Poppy seeds intended for human consumption contain a minute amount of opiate, but most people just enjoy them for a little nutty crunch on bagels.  Very few people use nutmeg to do anything but add flavor to a dish.  Would you say the same is true for alcohol?

Again, my position is that when considering what chemicals one would like to prohibit, one should have some objective standards to judge the chemical and dosage.  It is becoming increasingly clear that you have absolutely no objective standards with which to judge drugs.  Indeed, against all logic, you have trouble identifying anything you enjoy as a drug even when it clearly is.

Rabbi, you've gone off the deep end on this.  Alcohol isn't a recreational drug?  Okay, so what is it?

The Rabbi

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« Reply #70 on: October 03, 2006, 08:11:58 AM »
Alcohol is a food.  It is digested like a food.  It is consumed typically with other foods.  In its consumed forms it has nutritional value, in some cases like beer considerable value.  It has proven effectiveness in fighting certain diseases in the right dosages.  It is often used to enhance the flavor of foods.  It is widely used in industrial food applications.  Like nutmeg.
Now tell me how crack cocaine is no different from alcohol?
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cordex

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« Reply #71 on: October 03, 2006, 09:35:45 AM »
Quote
Alcohol is a food.  It is digested like a food.
Actually, alcohol is not digested "like food".  Alcohol is an organic solvent and is processed out of your body by your liver just like other poisons.
Quote
It is consumed typically with other foods.  In its consumed forms it has nutritional value, in some cases like beer considerable value.
Even when smoked, marijuana is consumed typically with foods.  Indeed, marijuanna is well known to stimulate appetite.  Brownies which use marijuana as an ingredient have significant nutritional value.  So what?

Non-alcoholic beer is available which is brewed as regular beer with much of the alcohol removed by vacuum evaporation.  It contains the "considerable" nutritional value of other beer without the empty calories of alcohol.

Just how many people drink alcohol for its nutritional content?
Quote
It has proven effectiveness in fighting certain diseases in the right dosages.
Is alcohol, in its drug form, the only method of fighting those diseases?  What percentage of drinkers consume alcohol only in the quantities sufficient to prevent disease?  
And again, marijuana has supposed medical benefits from nausea reduction, appetite stimulant, reduction in the effects of glaucoma and even reducing arterial blockages.  In fact, synthetic forms of THC are available as Marinol and other brand names.  If the benefits of so-called "medical marijuana" can be synthesized without the downside of having any enjoyable side-effects, why not try to do the same thing with alcohol?

Opiates are fantastic cough suppressants.  Cocaine is a good topical anesthetic, and certain amphetamines - in the right dosages - can be relatively safe stimulants.  Medical capability of a drug is certainly something to be considered, but doesn't mean anything in and of itself.
Quote
It is often used to enhance the flavor of foods.  It is widely used in industrial food applications.  Like nutmeg.
Cocaine was once used in the same manner.  Indeed, even today decocainized fluid extract of coca is still used to flavor foods and, most notably, still used in the production of Coca Cola.  I would wager that there are methods that alcohol's flavor could be duplicated without its psychoactive effects.

In the other direction, people often cut alcohol with sweet fluids to help conceal the very flavor you laud.  Some may do this to "enhance" the flavor of the juice or soft-drink, but more often I'll bet it is to make their drug of choice more palatable so consuming larger quantities is easier.
Quote
Now tell me how crack cocaine is no different from alcohol?
Straw man argument.  I've never claimed that crack cocaine is no different from alcohol.  However, just because they are very different doesn't mean that there are absolutely no similarities.  For instance, whether or not you choose to recognize it, both are used as recreational drugs.


Let's be realistic for a moment.  There are some very valid uses of alcohol that have nothing to do with recreation.  You've pointed out several, and I'm sure we could think up quite a few more.  The same could be said for other drugs as well.  However, like other drugs, alcohol is also used recreationally, and it is used recreationally more often than medicinally or for its rather weak nutritional value.  You believe very strongly that in a cost-benefits analysis, alcohol legality produces more positives than negatives.  That might well be the case, but it might also be the case with other drugs.  You advocate alcohol use and believe it should remain legal.  You condemn illicit drug use and believe all illicit drugs should remain illegal.  However, what you haven't shown is how you came to that conclusion.  I'm willing to be proven wrong, but my guess is that you have no standards by which you judge drugs.  That's why you have to resort to "Yeah, but what about crack and meth!?!?"

The Rabbi

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« Reply #72 on: October 03, 2006, 09:38:19 AM »
Quote from: cordex
I'm willing to be proven wrong
I dispute this statement.  I do not believe you are willing at all.  I believe you will offer corrupt and disingenuous arguments (as you did above) to support your point.
But taking it at face value, what would persuade you that your position is incorrect?
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richyoung

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« Reply #73 on: October 03, 2006, 09:54:43 AM »
from wikipedia, for what its worth:


"Ethanol is a drug, with potential for overdose or toxic poisoning if taken in excessive quantities. Alcoholism, the physiological or psychological dependency on ethanol, is one of the most common drug addictions (caffeine causes chemical dependency, but not the mental longing known as addiction) in the world. Upon cessation or decrease of use, the physiological dependency can lead to physical withdrawal symptoms, such as restlessness, trouble sleeping, "the shakes," or even death. For the full article on this topic, see effects of alcohol on the body."
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Third_Rail

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« Reply #74 on: October 03, 2006, 09:59:09 AM »
I don't agree that alcohol isn't a drug, but I refuse to take Wikipedia as a proof that it is or isn't a drug - Wikipedia is user-editable.


Rabbi, I'm glad you've never stated (that I've seen) that you're willing to be proven wrong, because you don't seem to be open to changing your mind. I used to hate guns and think they had no use except illegal in nature; I decided that the reasonable thing to do would be to be open and actually research and get both sides of the argument. Now I support the RKBA.