Author Topic: I don't understand Hybrids  (Read 7650 times)

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: I don't understand Hybrids
« Reply #25 on: February 03, 2009, 06:13:48 PM »
It makes much more sense economically to just put a green ribbon on your car to show that you care. Extra points if you still have a "Bush Lied, People Died" bumper sticker.
No kidding.  By whatever car you want and need, then just put a bumper sticker on the back tto make people think you're a good person.

Ben

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Re: I don't understand Hybrids
« Reply #26 on: February 03, 2009, 07:10:08 PM »
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It's a status symbol.

Exactly. If someone wants one or ten of them because they like the technology, or just because they like them, knock yourself out I say, but don't think you're 'helping the planet".


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It makes much more sense economically to just put a green ribbon on your car to show that you care.

My buddy's brother who lives in a fairly "green" community, bought whatever the biggest Lexus SUV is and was taking crap about it from various people. He went onto Ebay and bought a "hybrid" emblem with the green leaf someone was selling from some other vehicle for $5 and glued it onto his Lexus. Now he's golden with the hippie chicks.  :laugh:
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RevDisk

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Re: I don't understand Hybrids
« Reply #27 on: February 03, 2009, 08:49:25 PM »
That's quite a long payback period, even assuming high fuel prices.  A fair number of the cars won't even make it that far!

So, why would someone buy the hybrid?


Seriously, if you want to completely understand Hybrid/Green mania, management fads, etc, pick up a book called "Feast of Bones" about a bunch of Soviet air assault troops in Afghanistan.
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roo_ster

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Re: I don't understand Hybrids
« Reply #28 on: February 03, 2009, 10:03:37 PM »

Seriously, if you want to completely understand Hybrid/Green mania, management fads, etc, pick up a book called "Feast of Bones" about a bunch of Soviet air assault troops in Afghanistan.

I think I read that one.
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roo_ster

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Jim147

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Re: I don't understand Hybrids
« Reply #29 on: February 03, 2009, 10:40:48 PM »
The Hybrids from Japan have the others beat big in break even miles.
You just don't get the same tax break since it goes by number of units sold by manufacturer.

With over ten years of 75 miles one way to work I have been looking into some of the problems with the current crop of cars out there.
I have a car design that should be able to do much better on the hi-way but the great 2008 economy shorted my funding options. I hope to get back to work on it later this year.

There are several small companies working on different phases of alternative energy. What's needed is someone to combine some of them together.

But if I can get 40 mpg out of my Saturn why spend all the money on a hybrid?   
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HankB

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Re: I don't understand Hybrids
« Reply #30 on: February 03, 2009, 11:45:51 PM »
Consumer Reports magazine did a report on hybrids a year or three back . . . they concluded that they end up COSTING you money. (This from a magazine that has let it's left-leaning bias show through in the past, telling you what you should like, rather than what you will like.)
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Harold Tuttle

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Re: I don't understand Hybrids
« Reply #31 on: February 04, 2009, 10:13:01 AM »
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Iain

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Re: I don't understand Hybrids
« Reply #32 on: February 04, 2009, 10:22:44 AM »
Toyota are claiming 65mpg from the latest Prius, which is pretty decent.

The argument I can see in favour of the hybrid as a city car is pollution displacement. Overall the level of pollution emitted may be similar, but the hybrid is not chucking out pollutants in such significant amounts in population centres. It's not necessarily a good argument, but then I am reminded of the level of pollution build up on the Duomo in Florence.
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Firethorn

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Re: I don't understand Hybrids
« Reply #33 on: February 04, 2009, 10:26:59 AM »
Try replacing an upper left O2 sensor or a right rear shock absorber on a 98-02 Crown Vic and get back to me on that "if it isn't simple they designed it wrong" thing.  Shocks and oxygen sensors are a maintenance item, usually replaced every 30-50k.  They should be designed for easy replacement, right?  Surrrrrrre they are.  ;) p

I'll repeat:  If it takes an hour per cell they designed it wrong.  It's a battery, not a shock, and replacing the O2 sensor on my saturn was a 5 minute job, mostly looking for the right wrench.

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If the battery packs are rated for 150k miles, I can almost guarantee the extended service interval will result serviceability coming in a distant second to design.  Count on working in, around, and through a LOT of irrelevant stuff when servicing those "easily replaceable" packs.  That will become especially true if hybrids become truly mainstream and are forced to be economically competitive in the open market.

They're already on the market.  The battery pack is heavy, fairly large, and decoupled from the engine.  It only needs a pair of wires(heavy gauge to be sure, but still wires) to the controller.  Right now they're placing them in the trunk/under the back seat.

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Bad analogy.  In most applications plugs require the removal of a simple dust shield to access them, if that much.  Plugs are also stand-alone items accessable as a single mechanical element without the need for further dissasembly or removel of accessories, parts, and body panels.  Battery packs may be located in the trunk or under the seat, but you still have to do more than pop off a dust shield to access them.  Plus, you don't have to worry about plug wires welding themselves to the body should you accidently let one of them drop.  Then there's the potential for future battery technologies to be a single sealed unit (a lot of potential, in fact, as economy standards force the adoption of smaller, lighter vehicles).

Well, your listing examples where you need to dissassemble the engine to get to them is just as bad of an analogy.  I DID factor in an hour or so to get the battery in/out after all.  Plugs should be a ten minute job for a monkey wrench that's paying attention.  Most of those batteries have shutoffs for safety already. 

As for making the batteries sealed units, well, it depends on how likely they are to have to service them during the warranty period...

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What I hear from local hybrid owners tends to contradict that.  Though they do get slightly better economy with their hybrid, it isn't the "Oh My God look at this!!" that some marketing would have you believe.  Two people in my office bought hybrids.  Neither would buy them again if given the option of an equivalent gas or diesel powered vehicle.

They're easy to get to stats.  I'm sure the cab companies, that are running a number of hybrids, could get you actual mileage statistics.  Besides, don't regular vehicles also tend to use more fuel than EPA estimates?

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The argument I can see in favour of the hybrid as a city car is pollution displacement. Overall the level of pollution emitted may be similar, but the hybrid is not chucking out pollutants in such significant amounts in population centres. It's not necessarily a good argument, but then I am reminded of the level of pollution build up on the Duomo in Florence.

Good point.

I'll be perfectly honest:  On average, yes, a hybrid at this point is a status symbol.  I just wanted to point out that in the right circumstances it can actually make sense.

Oh, and the next gen 'pluggable' hybrids should do even better - going from NiMH to LiIon has a number of advantages.  While LiIon and the various related chemistries are more expensive, LiIon is half the weight for the energy, and has almost twice the charging efficiency - NiMH is around 66%, LiIon is 99% efficient.  50% more power returned for what you put in is a big deal, and can give you a lot of miles over time.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2009, 10:33:38 AM by Firethorn »

Jim147

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Re: I don't understand Hybrids
« Reply #34 on: February 04, 2009, 11:17:49 AM »
Plugs should be a ten minute job for a monkey wrench that's paying attention.  Most of those batteries have shutoffs for safety already.

Off topic: But I have to pull the intake off my Vue to change the plugs.

On topic: I can't wait for the LiIon batteries to get more affordable. That will make a it easier to improve the hi-way MPG.
Sometimes we carry more weight then we owe.
And sometimes goes on and on and on.

BAH-WEEP-GRAAAGHNAH WHEEP NI-NI BONG

Brad Johnson

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Re: I don't understand Hybrids
« Reply #35 on: February 04, 2009, 01:31:11 PM »
Firethorn,

Your points, while valid, are based on a "best possible situation" scenario.  Work on cars for a living, or even in your driveway, for a while and you'll see that "best possible" is a far cry from reality.  Short of a few, a VERY few, service items, most vehicles are hideously under-engineered from a serviceability standpoint.  Once battery packs become mainstream, and not just in vehicles designed to give the current public the warm fuzzies about hybrids/electrics, you'll see those battery packs get put in places a six-armed monkey would have trouble accessing easily.

Brad
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