Government forced schooling

[Northwoods]

I was alerted to the book Underground History of American Education by one my frequent blog reads, The Smallest Minority.

I'm probably about 1/3 of the way though the book and have found to be very interesting, but I'm not sure that I totally buy into his arguement.  It seems to comport with what I've personally observed, but I would like to know if anyone else has read it, and if so what your thoughts are on the matter. 

Espically I'd like to hear from people who think he's full of bovine excrement, and provide some documentable arguments to refute his assertions. 

This topic is of considerable interest to me as my daughter is starting kindergarten in about a month.  I'm not likely to pull her out of that in the short term, but depending on the collective reaction here to the book it might influence us to more seriously consider home schooling.

[Boomhauer]

I have not read the book.

But please don't put your daughter in public school for the full 12 years if you can avoid it. K-5 wasn't too bad, but middle school and HS...get her out by that time. Please. And watch carefully what they teach in K-5, as young minds are very impressionable.

[mellestad]

I was alerted to the book Underground History of American Education by one my frequent blog reads, The Smallest Minority.
I'm probably about 1/3 of the way though the book and have found to be very interesting, but I'm not sure that I totally buy into his arguement.  It seems to comport with what I've personally observed, but I would like to know if anyone else has read it, and if so what your thoughts are on the matter. 
Espically I'd like to hear from people who think he's full of bovine excrement, and provide some documentable arguments to refute his assertions. 
This topic is of considerable interest to me as my daughter is starting kindergarten in about a month.  I'm not likely to pull her out of that in the short term, but depending on the collective reaction here to the book it might influence us to more seriously consider home schooling.

I will just say that the benefit of public education is directly proportional to the amount of concern a parents has in their children's education.  As long as you don't just throw your kid at the mercy of the public education system, it can work just fine.  Make sure they get into honors classes, and make sure to educate them on how the world works outside of the institution.  Most public schools have two classes of education:  Leaders and fry cooks.  Make sure your kid gets stuck with the former, not the latter.

Home schooling is fine too, but anecdotally I see a lot of kids with social adjustment issues when leaving home.  It also depends on parental involvement, but to be blunt, not everyone is cut out to be an educator.

Good luck!

[lupinus]

I have not read the book.

But please don't put your daughter in public school for the full 12 years if you can avoid it. K-5 wasn't too bad, but middle school and HS...get her out by that time. Please. And watch carefully what they teach in K-5, as young minds are very impressionable.

Wat he said.

Especially if you live in a very liberal state this is sage advice.  K-5 or so isn't to bad as you're learning the basics.  Beyond that, I have no intention of my kids being in public school.  Several good Christian schools around and there is always home school.

[Regolith]

I've never read the book, but I've been following the "Smallest Minority" blog for a while.

As a somewhat recent product of the public education system (I graduated high school in 2004), I'd have to say that it really depends on your school, and more specifically the teachers. I had some crappy teachers, but I also had some very good ones.  

It's hard to generalize about something like this, because it varies so greatly, not only from school to school but from teacher to teacher.  I'd say that's the biggest problem with our educational system:  it cannot produce consistent results, because the skill set of those involved are not consistent.  The school I went to had everything from teachers that should probably never have been hired and didn't understand what they were teaching to teachers who probably had enough education and knowledge to teach in college.  Luckily, we had few of the former and enough of the latter that I got a fairly decent education.  Some are not so lucky, including those who attended the same school I did more recently as the administration managed to drive off most of the decent teachers soon after I graduated.

My suggestion is that you do some serious research into the school you're enrolling your kids in.  Look at the teachers' educational backgrounds, their work history, parent and kid satisfaction, etc.  That will give a better overall picture of the school.  

[Boomhauer]

I had some crappy teachers, but I also had some very good ones. 

I had some good teachers too, but the bad ones ranged from merely incompetent to bug-*expletive deleted*it crazy.


Oh, and if the school that you pick does not, go ahead and start them in a Spanish program of some sort. The kid will thank you later when she gets to HS and college.

[mellestad]

If you can afford it, I would actually recommend a well-respected private school.

But a *good* private school can be incredibly expensive, so that might or might not be an option for you.

And as for secular vs. religious private schools, my thoughts are that it is more time efficient to have a school teach your children about the world, and you can teach them about religion yourself.  I spent most of my education in a religious private school and, in my opinion, spending an hour and a half every day studying religion had a negative impact on students overall academic achievement, and not a very great impact on their moral/religious world view.  Kids tend to follow their parents beliefs, regardless of what their school teaches.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

But a *good* private school can be incredibly expensive, so that might or might not be an option for you.

I went to a *good* private school and it wasn't incredibly expensive. 

[mellestad]

I went to a *good* private school and it wasn't incredibly expensive. 

Which is why I said, "can be incredibly expensive".

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

My observation has been that decent private schools aren't particularly expensive.  The uber-uper-crusty elitist prep schools can be stupidly overpriced, and they seem to be used more as fashion statements or status symbols for the parents.  The real schools that you or I would consider for our children are usually quite affordable.

Of course, many of 'em are religious schools, which seems to be a problem for you.

And I still have ultimate high school bragging rights.  My school had a range in the basement, underneath the cafeteria.  Rifle team practice was held daily.

[mellestad]

My observation has been that decent private schools aren't particularly expensive.  The uber-uper-crusty elitist prep schools can be stupidly expensive, but the real schools that you or I would consider for our children are usually quite reasonably priced.

Of course, many of 'em are religious schools, which seems to be a problem for you.

I agree, some are certainly reasonable.  I don't see any argument between us.

I think it is clear my opinion of religious schools is not hostile, at least from what I wrote?  I meant exactly what I wrote, no more, no less.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

You have a problem with religious schools.  You think religious classes are a waste of time.  I get it. 

[Perd Hapley]

A friend of mine was the first to graduate from a new Christian school.  He was Valedictorian, in addition to being last in his class. 

[mellestad]

You have a problem with religious schools.  You think religious classes are a waste of time.  I get it. 

*shrug* Ok?

A friend of mine was the first to graduate from a new Christian school.  He was Valedictorian, in addition to being last in his class. 

Lol, my Jr. year there were eight students, the next year the school only had one graduate!  That poor guy must have dull reunions. 

[Zardozimo Oprah Bannedalas]

If you're shipping the kid off to private/religious school, make sure their grades are at least comparable to those of the public school in the area.

Private school or public, make sure you spend time teaching your kid outside of school.

[Balog]

I like it when people (correctly) observe that the most important element in a kid's education, then say a system based entirely around you working with your kid is dangerous if you aren't a qualified teacher.

The whole "Zomg home schoolers are socially retarded!!!!one!!" canard is pretty road worn by now too. 1. It's not true. 2. It implies public schools don't churn out scores of ill-adjusted social maladroits, which is pretty laughable on it's face.

[zahc]

"Zomg home schoolers are socially retarded!!!!one!!"

Translation: ZOMG home schoolers are less stupid and don't get pregnant, overdosed, and/or become socialists half the time like NORMAL highschool kids!!!!

[roo_ster]

Oh, and if the school that you pick does not, go ahead and start them in a Spanish program of some sort. The kid will thank you later when she gets to HS and college.

Well, if you run crews of illegal alien laborers, you would be right.

Pretty much any professional-level employment will find Spanish well-nigh worthless and he'll wish he took German, Japanese, Russian, Mandarin, Latin, or just about anything else.



FTR, I had 6 years of Spanish instruction from JH to HS and then spent time in Miami and polished my Spanish.  Haven't used it much in the intervening 18 years of professional life.

[Boomhauer]

Pretty much any professional-level employment will find Spanish well-nigh worthless and he'll wish he took German, Japanese, Russian, Mandarin, Latin, or just about anything else.

It helps, though to pass the Spanish classes in HS and college where Spanish is the only foreign language accepted. You've got to fill those squares (for me it was 2 semesters in HS and 2 semesters in college). They may never use it after leaving college, but it will make it much less stressful to be prepared. We all know languages are much easier when immersed from the start of the education.

[mellestad]

It helps, though to pass the Spanish classes in HS and college where Spanish is the only foreign language accepted. You've got to fill those squares (for me it was 2 semesters in HS and 2 semesters in college). They may never use it after leaving college, but it will make it much less stressful to be prepared. We all know languages are much easier when immersed from the start of the education.

That is a good point, the sooner they start the easier it will be.

Translation: ZOMG home schoolers are less stupid and don't get pregnant, overdosed, and/or become socialists half the time like NORMAL highschool kids!!!!

Man, you guys are spoiling for a fight aren't you?  I made a statement that I clearly said was anecdotal and before I know if you are rambling about socialist brainwashing in public schools and how I am, apparently, calling home school kids retarded.

If parents make sure their home schooled kids are also a part of the "real" world, that can be avoided.  But like I said, my anecdotal experience has been that many home schooled kids are very shell shocked when they leave the nest.  Anecdotal, first hand conversations have confirmed this.  If you want to dispute that, fine, but do it calmly.  I just don't think everyone is qualified to be a primary educator, and I don't think the looming specter of "socialism" is reason to keep your kids out of public education.

I meant what I said.  If parents put effort into public education (as long as the school is not totally failing), they can have a desirable outcome, regardless of what you want them to pick up about religion, politics and morality.  Make sure your kids don't start hanging out with drug dealers, know who their friends are.  Make sure they understand what sex is, and why it should be avoided when they are young, and how to control it if needed.  If you want them to believe a particular political world view, they will believe you over their teachers anyway, so make sure you talk to them and explain why you believe what you believe.

[Northwoods]

Perhaps I should clarify.  

Gatto's premise is that the schooling system as it stands now is designed to dumb-down the population, and that such is an intentional effect of the people that started the forced schooling trend 150 years ago.  His claim is that becuase of the way the school system is set up, with all the layers of adminsitration, teachers unions, and such that have such a stake in maintaining the status quo make reform an exercise in futility.  Therefore you need to either tear down the entire system and end the legal compulsion to attend school to return our education system to the kind that produced Ben Franklin, Thomas Edison (who'd have been a special ed kid today), etc, or (since that's not likely to happen any time soon) pull your kids from government schools and either put them into a private school that actually educates rather than just mirroring the public schools or homeschool.

[zahc]

Man, you guys are spoiling for a fight aren't you?

I wasn't directing that at anyone in particular. I was merely sharing my thoughts on the "homeschoolers are different" stereotype, and that all aspects of "different" are not bad; in other words, it's not a bug, it's a feature.

But like I said, my anecdotal experience has been that many home schooled kids are very shell shocked when they leave the nest.  Anecdotal, first hand conversations have confirmed this.  If you want to dispute that, fine, but do it calmly.

I'm a picture of calmness. It seems to me that all stereotypes have at least some basis in reality, so you are probably right. I don't have any such experiences with home schooled people, but maybe I don't notice the "shell shock" because I'm a "shell shocked" homeschooled deviant myself.

I don't think the looming specter of "socialism" is reason to keep your kids out of public education.

I do!

[Boomhauer]

I completely agree that the current school system is designed to dumb down people while providing jobs for teachers and administrators. This bullcrap about "Every child has a right to an education!" has got to go. We can't kick the bad students out of school because "they have a RIGHT TO AN EDUCATION!!!!!!!11111!!!!". So the teachers end up, under pressure from the administrators, teaching at the lowest level and passing everyone just to get rid of them.

From K-3, my education was relatively solid. Starting in 4th and 5th grade, they pressed "teaching to testing" standards on us, and once we entered middle school, they abandoned any premise of actually teaching the necessary skills to "teaching to pass the standardized testing". We never finished grammar past the elementary level (I still have no idea WTF a "past participle" is). The only reason I am literate is I read a LOT of books and thus can tell whether or not a sentence "sounds right".


The Teachers Unions need to go, we need to stop throwing money at the problem, and students need to be kicked out for bad behavior...but that will never happen. The American population will get progressively stupider generation by generation. And judging by the people I see on a daily basis, we've hit rock bottom and started to dig.

[BrokenPaw]

You have a problem with religious schools.  You think religious classes are a waste of time.  I get it. 

Religious classes are a waste of time, unless you can be sure that the classes are in line with the doctrine you want your children to be learning. 

I believe mellestad's point was that one might be better served by reserving religious education for the home, where you can be sure that the doctrine your kids are hearing is in line with your faith.

Academics (especially at the primary level) are less intrinsically a matter of personal philosophy, and are therefore less likely to be interpreted in significantly different ways from one school to another.

It might be easier to find a non-religious private school that is up to your desired level of academic standards, than to find a religious school that is up to those standards and is doctrinally sound (with regard to your particular faith) in a given area.

YMMV.

-BP

-BP

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

Religious classes are a waste of time, unless you can be sure that the classes are in line with the doctrine you want your children to be learning. 

I believe mellestad's point was that one might be better served by reserving religious education for the home, where you can be sure that the doctrine your kids are hearing is in line with your faith.

Academics (especially at the primary level) are less intrinsically a matter of personal philosophy, and are therefore less likely to be interpreted in significantly different ways from one school to another.

It might be easier to find a non-religious private school that is up to your desired level of academic standards, than to find a religious school that is up to those standards and is doctrinally sound (with regard to your particular faith) in a given area.

How can learning about anything important be a waste of time?

Even if you have no personal interest in religion, learning about the religions of the world on an academic level is vital to achieving a well-rounded education.  If your intention is to learn about the world around you, then you cannot succeed at that while ignoring religion, because religion is integral to the human experience on any number of levels, from history to politics to geography to philosophy and back again. 

You don't have to believe in any particular religion yourself to benefit from learning about religion. 

And besides, I reject the notion that learning about religion means you can't learn about all of the other subjects you might need.  Education is not a zero-sum game.