Another rant on Car Stealerships

[Kingcreek]

I try to avoid using the dealer shop but sometimes its almost unavoidable. Our local Jeep dealer has a long history of good mechanics and service. They recently changed ownership but went out of their way to assure everyone that nothing is changing except the name.
I'm having 2 issues with my 4 door Rubicon that will require some parts.
Front axle seal leaking. A common Jeep problem. If it was the standard Dana 30 I would change it out myself- a half day and $150 parts and new diff fluid. Because it is the Dana 44 with electronic locking diff and sway bar disconnect it is much more complicated. Shop manual says 7.5 hours for a trained tech.
Radiator leaking antifreeze. Another common Jeep problem. I tested with system pressure test kit including rad cap and overflow. Instead of doing it myself, I told them I wanted it replaced (they are plastic and aluminum and can't be repaired), system backflushed and new antfreeze and thermostat installed (I already had a new thermo just hadn't put it in yet).
So I booked an appointment for it to go in. I called back to ask them to also change rear diff fluid while they have it.

That's when I found out they weren't planning on FIXING anything.
They want me to bring it in so they can "see what it needs".

If I said I have a noise in my motor I don't know what it is, I could understand the need for diagnostics. But these are minor leaks, very common in Jeep Wranglers, The parts are well known to fail and they are going to replace some other common parts at the same time.

I told them what it needs. I don't like the idea of paying them to tell me what I already told them.

[HankB]

They're the EXPERTS, and only THEY can properly diagnose your jeep.

If you were going to the doctor with a bad cut on your thumb, would you argue with him if rather than stitches, he used his expertise at diagnosis and told you an orchidectomy was required?

[dogmush]

If you want something done right, you gotta do it yourself.

I've already bitched about the last couple times I chose to pay for some wrenching.  It makes me want to kill people.

The only exception is body and paint work. Some of those guys are artists.

[BobR]

The local Jeep dealer has had our 08 Grand Cherokee for 3 months. Some of it is parts availability, another is it is all warranty* work so they don't get paid much from Jeep and the biggest issue IMO is the owner made the celestial transfer recently and after talking to the service advisor the other day it seem since he did that about 90% of their mechanics have found other employment. I have no idea what is going on there but it doesn't sound good. I may have to find a dealer in Las Vegas that will work with us.

bob

* Lifetime Power Train Warranty and the old Mopar Lifetime Maxcare warranty. That care will dissassemble itself before I give it up.

[French G.]

Body work and recalls is about the only reason I see a dealer. I even have access to a tire machine now.

[Kingcreek]

I’ll see what they say Wednesday. The real big issue is the front axle. It’s pretty technical getting the locking diff together in a way that everything is happy. Have to pull the gears and shims and both axle shafts to put new seals in.
If they piss me off enough I can do a radiator and cooling system. It ain’t rocket surgery.
I don’t have a hoist but I have floor jack, ramps, and 6 ton locking jack stands. And inside space with good lighting. It just gets inconvenient if it’s out of commission for more than a couple days.

[Hawkmoon]

So I booked an appointment for it to go in. I called back to ask them to also change rear diff fluid while they have it.

That's when I found out they weren't planning on FIXING anything.
They want me to bring it in so they can "see what it needs".

If I said I have a noise in my motor I don't know what it is, I could understand the need for diagnostics. But these are minor leaks, very common in Jeep Wranglers, The parts are well known to fail and they are going to replace some other common parts at the same time.

I told them what it needs. I don't like the idea of paying them to tell me what I already told them.

Welcome to the brave new world of dealership auto repair. The problem is two-fold. First, techs are paid and customers are charged based on the flat rate manual. Once in a while, that works to the customer's advantage -- if there's a huge, unexpected glitch. Usually it works to the mechanics' advantage. I've known mechanics who regularly got paid for 60 to 80 hours of "work" in a 40-hour week, because their jobs all went smoothly and they could crank out a lot of flat rate jobs in less than the flat rate time. But the customer still paid for three hours of labor, even if the work only took an hour and a half.

The other side of this coin is that now both the mechanics and the "service advisors" get paid a percentage of any work they can sell the customer on. My brother used to be service manager at a BMW dealership. He said one of his biggest problems was getting mechanics to do the work a vehicle was in for. He said invariably the first thing a mechanic would do, no matter what the vehicle was in for, would be to put it up on the lift and spend 20 minutes or half an hour looking for extra work they could upsell. And the mechanics would get pissy if the service writer didn't make a serious effort to convince the owner that all that extra work was necessary,.

So dealerships solved that by cutting the service writers in on the slush. So now it's not just the mechanics but also the service writers who have a vested interest in selling you work that may or may not be needed.

[Kingcreek]

Yeah that’s why I see all dealerships expanding and adding service bays. They want 3 bays for each tech so he/she can work on 2 or 3 at the same time, sometimes with an apprentice or helper. There is no downtime while waiting on parts or for something to drain.

I wish I had my old CJ7 or an IH scout or something. I personally knew every bolt and bearing on that old CJ7.

[Pb]

I called  local dealership because I was concerned about my car's computer (if it needed update or replacement).  They said it would take them two (paid) hours to pull the computer and look at it.

I looked it up on youtube in did it myself in about ten minutes.   

[K Frame]

I have a pretty good relationship with the service department where I purchased my Subaru. They don't seem to be as inclined to upsell me on every little thing when I'm in for service or to try to find stuff like Ben's bedplate leak (https://armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=47658.msg971717#msg971717)

I did, however, draw the line when they said the cabin air filter needed to be replaced... for the low, low price of $79 for labor, and another $40 for the filter. I just about *expletive deleted*it myself.

Got the filter from Amazon for $13 and changed it in, literally, less than 5 minutes.

I have a new filter coming from Amazon every 6 months.

[Ben]

I have a pretty good relationship with the service department where I purchased my Subaru. They don't seem to be as inclined to upsell me on every little thing when I'm in for service or to try to find stuff like Ben's bedplate leak (https://armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=47658.msg971717#msg971717)

I did, however, draw the line when they said the cabin air filter needed to be replaced... for the low, low price of $79 for labor, and another $40 for the filter. I just about *expletive deleted*it myself.

Got the filter from Amazon for $13 and changed it in, literally, less than 5 minutes.

I have a new filter coming from Amazon every 6 months.

Man, I forgot all about that bedplate leak. That truck was probably the worst car purchase I ever made in my life. Never buy the first production run of a car.

On the cabin air filter, that seems to be a universal ripoff charge. I will admit it's not always an easy swap. In my 4Runner, I can do it in literally two minutes, and half that is taking crap out of the glovebox and then replacing it. On my F150, it's kind of a pain of taking stuff apart to get to it. I actually put that one off for like three years before I finally said "screw it" and took care of it. I think it takes about 30 minutes on that one, including pulling out and pressing back in plastic retainer thingies, so I still only do it once a year because I'm afraid of breaking them. Very bad design. I see no reason why all manufacturers can't make filter access as easy as it is on my 4Runner.

[K Frame]

Doing it on my Subaru is pretty straight forward and easy. Often I don't even bother to empty the glove box, I'm just careful that I don't dump everything.

Pop off the piston soft opener, lift out the box, pull the old filter, put the new one in, and reassemble the glove box.

The biggest problem is that the filter is a VERY tight fit in the housing and I normally have to use two pair of pliars to grasp the tabs to pull it free.

[Kingcreek]

A glimmer of hope when I dropped it off this morning. The service desk was manned by a guy I’ve known for 40 years- went to school with his older brother. He was a real good mechanic and promoted up to service years ago. He had been off work for 10 days and when he looked at the schedule he looked a little confused and asked me what we were doing today. I told him about the leaks and my concern that no actual work might be done today.
He got a funny look on his face, said he’ll find out when the other guy gets in and call me. He seemed to think they should be doing the axle seals today and probably verify the radiator issue and order whatever parts are needed for another day. I can accept that if that’s the case.

The older I get, the more I value the personal relationships that include trust.

[BobR]

I have a pretty good relationship with the service department where I purchased my Subaru. They don't seem to be as inclined to upsell me on every little thing when I'm in for service or to try to find stuff like Ben's bedplate leak (https://armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=47658.msg971717#msg971717)

I did, however, draw the line when they said the cabin air filter needed to be replaced... for the low, low price of $79 for labor, and another $40 for the filter. I just about *expletive deleted*it myself.

Got the filter from Amazon for $13 and changed it in, literally, less than 5 minutes.

I have a new filter coming from Amazon every 6 months.

When the wife's Jeep was in one time I went ahead and told them to do the cabin filter. They said it didn't have one. I took it home, watched a utoob, ordered it and did it myself. I guess they will never see that particular cabin air filter change.

bob

[Bogie]

My first choice is a good indy shop.
 
Second is a good shadetree or mobile guy.
 
Last starter I had, on the van, the mobile guy knocked out for a benjy... But I have the industry discount...
 
I don't recommend dealers unless you have a newish vehicle, and it will need weird stuff/tools.

[Ben]

I took it home, watched a utoob, ordered it and did it myself.

bob

I gotta say, were it not for the youtubz, I never would have figured out the cabin filter on the F150.

[Kingcreek]

He called. They are doing the front axle seals and new diff fluid front and rear.
They don’t have a radiator, can’t get a radiator. I have a new OEM Mopar radiator ordered for $200 under dealers cost. I might just flush the coolant and change the radiator and thermostat myself.
I need the dealer for the more technical stuff. The dealer has diagnostics that nobody else has. They no longer use a local analyzer. They cable the vehicle to the Jeep/Chrysler head shed.

[K Frame]

My question on cabin air filters, something that no one I've talked with has ever really been able to answer.

Obviously the filter filters incoming air.

But, when you set the system to recirculate, does the air now trapped in the vehicle continue to pass through the filter, or does it bypass the filter?

[JTHunter]

It may depend on your make and/or model.
I have a 2011 Elantra and I think it does go through the filter as I have to access my cabin filter through the back of the glove box under the dash.

[Bogie]

Be careful if you have some cars - they'll void the warranty on some of the trendies if you try to work on it yourself. Like to change the oil...

[Boomhauer]

The issues that most have is with idiot management and clueless service writers. The problem is that instead of hiring experienced mechanics at a good rate as service writers they hire 20-25 y.o. airheads who don’t know a damn thing about wrenching and don’t do their job with any degree of competency. They don’t care that you need your car for work and can’t afford to drop it off one day for diag and then another day or three for the work, or that you can’t wait a month without a car while it gets fixed.

Be careful if you have some cars - they'll void the warranty on some of the trendies if you try to work on it yourself. Like to change the oil...

That’s illegal as *expletive deleted*ck

[K Frame]

Be careful if you have some cars - they'll void the warranty on some of the trendies if you try to work on it yourself. Like to change the oil...

That would be a direct violation of the Magnusson-Moss Act.

There was a dealership in Virginia in the 1990s that was renown for crap like that. Oh, you actually DROVE your car? Well that violated the warranty. Screw off.

Multiple lawsuits against them for that, and from what I remember, they lost most of them. Around the same time some of their salesmen and managers were accused of helping drug dealers launder money. https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1994/02/16/5-guilty-6-cleared-of-money-laundering-in-car-sales/df8c9a75-2a16-4225-a9d1-c65c306a0a79/

[Bogie]

Subaru awd trannies are so wonky that if you need to replace one tire, you need to replace all of them. And if you bolt on (or have U-Haul bolt on) a trailer hitch, even just for one of the little things that you will take to/from Home Depot, that voids...
 
The mfgrs are trying to "seal" the computers so that they cannot be programmed by independents... So forget about changing your shift points, etc., without paying a dealer...

[dogmush]

Subaru awd trannies are so wonky that if you need to replace one tire, you need to replace all of them. And if you bolt on (or have U-Haul bolt on) a trailer hitch, even just for one of the little things that you will take to/from Home Depot, that voids...
 ...

Not sure where you got that info.  The first thing is a function of all computer slipped AWD Power Distribution Units. The tires must be within a percentage of the same diameter or the computer reads the different wheel rpm as slipping and slips the diff clutches.

On the second Subaru offers trailer hitches for most of their vehicles as a factory option, and has for like 30 years.

My parents 89 GL wagon had a receiver, as does my mom's 18 Outback.

[Hawkmoon]

Be careful if you have some cars - they'll void the warranty on some of the trendies if you try to work on it yourself. Like to change the oil...

I'm pretty certain the federal .gov has ruled that the manufacturers CAN'T void the warranty if you change your own oil.