Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => Politics => Topic started by: Ben on February 25, 2015, 11:24:24 PM
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Is how Obama started this sentence via the White House Twitter account:
"We’re a nation of laws, but we’re also respecting the fact that we’re a nation of immigrants." —Obama
Spoken at the "Town Hall" hosted by MSNBC and Telemundo. "Town Hall" is in quotes because though the White House called it that, it wasn't open to the public - only the guests of MSNBC and Telmundo were allowed in. Rumor has it that the entire audience was composed of illegals.
My response to the quote is twofold: 1) What does one have to do with the other? and 2) So I guess we're not actually a nation of laws.
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1) What does one have to do with the other?
When the left says "immigrants," they're generally not talking about immigrants; they're talking about illegal aliens.
I think his overall point was that we're a nation of laws, but since he's not an American,* he's not the least bit interested in governing lawfully.
*He's a European socialist with an American birth certificate.
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Whenever the word "but" is used in a sentence, it invalidates everything said/written prior to it.
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The politicians, and especially liberals truly believe that laws do not apply to them or their allies...but they damn well apply to us normal folk.
They reguarly break the laws but instead of calling them on it or stopping them no one is willing to stand up to them.
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When the left says "immigrants," they're generally not talking about immigrants; they're talking about illegal aliens.
This is true. When they talk about "immigrants", you never seem to see any Canadian immigrants, Japanese immigrants, Swedish immigrants (Hi Viking!), etc. in the room.
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We've reached the point where our government does whatever it wants without fear from the people, and the people are afraid to do anything out of fear of the government.
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He could have saved time and said "We're not a nation of laws, and sod immigration laws."
I don't quite get why folks want support illegal immigration. I can understand employers wanting cheap near slave labor that don't pay taxes, can't sue and can't speak up about illegal conduct. That makes sense, as evil as it is. Construction bosses who can dump an employee at the ER entrance if the guy saws off his foot or housewife sick of doing the dishes or vacuuming but not wanting to pay legal wages.
Thing is, legal immigration cuts off most of those benefits. Unless they got the H1B visa route, to keep the near slave status.
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~10-20 million new Democrat voters, that's why. Republicans will be the permanent minority party, never controlling either house of Congress or the White House.
Not that it seems to make a damn bit of difference.
http://blogs.rollcall.com/wgdb/mark-kirk-wants-gop-to-wave-the-white-flag-on-dhs-funding/
:facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: [ar15] [ar15] [ar15] [ar15]
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~10-20 million new Democrat voters, that's why.
If the GOP cannot package its ideas in a package that can appeal to Latin-American immigrants, then the GOP deserves to be a permanent minority part.
If socialism, oppression, and the welfare state can be marketed, in some way, to any population on the globe, then so can truth, justice, and the American Way.
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Tell me which path in life is going to be WAY more popular- a lifetime of welfare gravy where you have to do little or no work, and all you gotta do is vote for the politicians who steal for you, or the other path- a lifetime of hard work and dedication, only to watch what SHOULD be your just rewards taken from you and given to the leeches?
You can't sell "doing the right thing" to people who sure as hell do not want to hear it...not after they've tasted the government cheese and seen that doing the right thing is a lot harder than pushing the easy button.
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Tell me which path in life is going to be WAY more popular- a lifetime of welfare gravy where you have to do little or no work, and all you gotta do is vote for the politicians who steal for you, or the other path- a lifetime of hard work and dedication, only to watch what SHOULD be your just rewards taken from you and given to the leeches?
You can't sell "doing the right thing" to people who sure as hell do not want to hear it...not after they've tasted the government cheese and seen that doing the right thing is a lot harder than pushing the easy button.
And yet most working-age people in the world have jobs of some kind.
There are any number of examples of welfare states being reduced in scope and markets being deregulated, to various degrees of success (Israel is one of them), it's simply untrue that you can't persuade people to cut welfare and taxes. I can count any number of examples where these policies have had electoral success.
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If the GOP cannot package its ideas in a package that can appeal to Latin-American immigrants, then the GOP deserves to be a permanent minority part.
If socialism, oppression, and the welfare state can be marketed, in some way, to any population on the globe, then so can truth, justice, and the American Way.
Determine all this from your extensive interaction with Mexican border hoppers, eh?
Here are a few observations:
1. Mean border hopper has lower than mean (100) IQ, somewhere around 90.
2. Mean border hopper has a short time horizon. Partly due to #1, but also a cultural artifact. Sacrifice now for a better tomorrow does not compute.
3. Mean border jumper comes from a culture fine with a Big Man and his cronies ruling the roost and doling out favors to buddies and paying off the masses. The usual "top & bottom against the middle" setup. This means the Mexican middle class is tiny relative to the size of America's middle class over most its history.
4. No matter their religious or social conservatism, almost all vote for the party that promises the biggest bag of "gimme."
For the GOP to appeal to the majority of latin americans in the USA, it would have to stop being the GOP and become the Democrat Party.
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Hispanic voters are usually hard left, despising free-market capitalism and gun rights. As roo_ster said, Hispanic culture is very tolerant of political corruption, as long as it is "their" party that is corrupt. The GOP is committing suicide as a national power... the reason they don't seem to mind is that big business is salivating on using immigrant labor to drive down our wages.
The Democratic Party is very envious of the PRI party in mexico and hopes to emulate it... so they can be as rich, and power mad as they want and the voters won't care:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institutional_Revolutionary_Party
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Determine all this from your extensive interaction with Mexican border hoppers, eh?
If only there was some way to learn about the nature of man that doesn't revolve around personal interaction with every group of humans that exists.
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If only there was some way to learn about the nature of man that doesn't revolve around personal interaction with every group of humans that exists.
I suspected you had zero actual interaction. I would rate your experience with with our hispanic population on par with the experience my neighbors in Minnesota had with black Americans. Wait, that is not fair. They had seen actual, live black men & women at a distance, once, when they went to Minneapolis. So--obviously--they were experts on race relations and more than willing to pontificate on the proper policing of inner cities.
Do not make the mistake in assuming that members of an ethnic or racial group you have never met are like you. They have motivations dissimilar to yours and they may not react as you would to incentives.
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Either liberty and individual rights are a universally applicable concept, or liberty and individual rights are totally worthless.
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Either liberty and individual rights are a universally applicable concept, or liberty and individual rights are totally worthless.
Horse hockey. They are worth something to those who value them. It is pretty obvious rather large groups who do not.
Liberty and individual sovereignty are concepts that evolved from particluar ethnicities and cultures. They are no more universal than blue eyes or female genital mutilation.
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Liberty and individual sovereignty are concepts that evolved from particluar ethnicities and cultures. They are no more universal than blue eyes or female genital mutilation.
Moral truths are either universal - and then can be taught to anyone - or there are no moral truths.
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Ever try to teach something to someone who doesn't want to learn? Or, worse yet someone who has been indoctrinated against what you want them to learn? And while attempting to teach them the truth the pupil is simultaneously being "taught" the opposite of your lessen with reinforcing government handouts?
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So, is roo_ster really arguing against moral absolutes, and Microbalrog in favor of them?
'Cause my mind just ran out into the snow, screaming and removing its clothing.
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Either liberty and individual rights are a universally applicable concept, or liberty and individual rights are totally worthless.
Moral truths are either universal - and then can be taught to anyone - or there are no moral truths.
Universally applied or worthless, says who?
Liberty, rights and moral truth may be universal truths but so is human free will to dismiss, ignore or work against them.
Thousands of years of educated and Christian culture worked out a world view of reality that developed the western world with its liberty and prosperity. The western world is a bubble and folks who didn't grow up in that bubble do not see things like we do nor do they even define the terms (liberty, moral etc.) the same.
Allowing large numbers of folks to migrate into our nation who not only didn't grow up steeped in our understanding of things but hold views antagonistic to our founding principles is cultural suicide.
Are you in favor of unfettered immigration and the granting of rights of citizenship from your all neighbors into Israel?
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Micro, you don't live here, you've never even BEEN here. Hell, you aren't even grasping this conversation. You are talking theoretical, and we are talking practical and the real world.
It's nice and all to talk about universal truths and teaching it, and it is indeed a very good thing to spread the word about freedom and liberty and all the great *expletive deleted*it. But there are plenty who will actively reject it when the short term rewards are greater- yes there are people who will voluntarily put themselves into bondage in exchange for seemingly great rewards. That is the crux of the issue that you should be talking about here- HOW do you educate people to reject the vast government cheese instead? Because I've tried to convince people and most do not want to hear it- the siren call of welfare is pretty damn strong.
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Are you in favor of unfettered immigration and the granting of rights of citizenship from your all neighbors into Israel?
I would certainly prefer it to the current situation with immigrants in Israel.
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So, is roo_ster really arguing against moral absolutes, and Microbalrog in favor of them?
'Cause my mind just ran out into the snow, screaming and removing its clothing.
I have never been opposed to the idea of moral absolutes. We just disagree on what the moral absolutes are.
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Moral truths are either universal - and then can be taught to anyone - or there are no moral truths.
Perhaps "universal" doesn't mean what you think it means?
Moral Truth: Liberty
Liberty, the idea that folk can do as they will. Universal? Not so much. Pretty much every society has limited the liberty of children or the immature. Also, they limit the liberty of folk to act against children, even if the children consent. Children do not have what it takes in their brains to have much chance of using their volition responsibly. Children can cause damage from ignorance & inexperience. Adults who take advantage of children can horrifically damage those children because children again do not have what it takes upstairs to deny those taking advantage of them.
So, two examples of the non-universality of liberty already. Age/cognitive insufficiency and evil.
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Perhaps I do not imply by 'universal' what you think i do'.
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Perhaps I do not imply by 'universal' what you think i do'.
Oblique allusions to the counter-argument do not really illuminate your point or advance the discussion.
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Perhaps I do not imply by 'universal' what you think i do'.
And perhaps I can whistle "Dixie" out of my fourth point of contact.
Meanwhile, here in non-Humpty-Dumpty(1) Land, we do our best to stick with plain meaning and general understanding.
Note (1):
"I don't know what you mean by 'glory,' " Alice said.
Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. "Of course you don't—till I tell you. I meant 'there's a nice knock-down argument for you!' "
"But 'glory' doesn't mean 'a nice knock-down argument'," Alice objected.
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less."
"The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."
"The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master—that's all."
Alice was too much puzzled to say anything, so after a minute Humpty Dumpty began again. "They've a temper, some of them—particularly verbs, they're the proudest—adjectives you can do anything with, but not verbs—however, I can manage the whole lot! Impenetrability! That's what I say!"
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As a young man, recently discovered of the true principles of laissez faire capitalism and self determination. I assumed that the appreciation for these principles were inherent in all people, and that the only reason that we didn't all live in rich, pluralistic societies was that far to many we're trapped in a polity that was misruled by bad leaders and their henchman. I assumed that there burned a desire within the hearts of all people trapped in these unfortunate circumstances to breathe free, to respect the law and each other, to strive and earn and prosper.
I was full of *expletive deleted*it.
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And perhaps I can whistle "Dixie" out of my fourth point of contact.
Meanwhile, here in non-Humpty-Dumpty(1) Land, we do our best to stick with plain meaning and general understanding.
Note (1):
A universal moral truth is one that is always true, regardless of one's cultural belonging.
Truth: Torturing babies is evil.
Even if some countries torture babies, that merely means that their culture is evil.
The fact that there exist cultures that believe baby-torture is okay doesn't mean it is.
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MicroBalrog, the left wing promises illegal immigrants:
Free food
Free/cheap housing
Free phones
Free/cheap child care
Free healthcare
Free money
And all they have to do is sit on their butts and have illegitimate children... and vote for Democrats.
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A universal moral truth is one that is always true, regardless of one's cultural belonging.
Truth: Torturing babies is evil.
Even if some countries torture babies, that merely means that their culture is evil.
The fact that there exist cultures that believe baby-torture is okay doesn't mean it is.
But in making that statement, you have to define "torture" and "babies". That same issue was brought up with regard to circumcision. I am sure you could find some wack job who thinks it was torture to allow the toddler to touch the hot pot of boiling water even after being told not to touch it. Maybe find some hellicopter parent who defines their 12 year old hoodlum as a "baby".
We live in a legalistic era. There can be no assumption of common sense or common decency. Reasonable or rational thought certainly cannot be assumed. I am playing devil's advocate, but that is needed when people talk about absolutes.
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Back to the OP issue, I also heard Obama was speculating about raising taxes without a new law passing. They are already working on screwing up the internet without any congressional approval.
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Back to the OP issue, I also heard Obama was speculating about raising taxes without a new law passing. They are already working on screwing up the internet without any congressional approval.
On corporate taxes, I believe. Because already having the highest corporate tax rate in the world just isn't good enough.
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You know what??? They keep doing this shinola (both parties, btw) and pretty soon, the people who follow the laws because they're overall good, decent people who *want* to be law abiding are gonna look around, realize they're getting royally boned, and say, "F*** this, I'm not gonna keep getting hosed while everyone else gets away with breaking the law."
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"We’re a nation of laws, but we’re also respecting the fact that we’re a nation of immigrants." —Obama
Yeah, well you know what? "We're a nation of laws, but I don't feel like paying taxes anymore."
"We're a nation of laws, but I don't think I should have to follow ANY DAMN LAW I DON'T WANT TO!" And I'll just point to the Teleprompter-in-Chief and say hey, he said it, not me....
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Yeah, well you know what? "We're a nation of laws, but I don't feel like paying taxes anymore."
"We're a nation of laws, but I don't think I should have to follow ANY DAMN LAW I DON'T WANT TO!" And I'll just point to the Teleprompter-in-Chief and say hey, he said it, not me....
You aren't a member of a protected class so that won't work for you.
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We'll become more like Russia or 3rd world shitholes where there is a thriving black market in everyday/essential items.
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Venezuela/Argentina/Zimbabwe, here we come !!!!
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You aren't a member of a protected class so that won't work for you.
Doesn't matter. Taxes and most other criminal systems work because most people follow them.
Massive disobedience would collapse the system, protected class or not.
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Massive disobedience would collapse the system, protected class or not.
You say it like a bad thing.
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I don't want the USA to collapse. :mad:
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I don't want the USA to collapse. :mad:
It's going to happen, sooner or later. Probably sooner. I don't believe there will be any stopping it.
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It's going to happen, sooner or later. Probably sooner. I don't believe there will be any stopping it.
I've held that opinion for quite a while now.
The US is in a death spiral, there is no stopping it at this point.
It's a done deal, the only thing we don't know is how soon and how deep the crater will be.
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I've held that opinion for quite a while now.
The US is in a death spiral, there is no stopping it at this point.
It's a done deal, the only thing we don't know is how soon and how deep the crater will be.
On the bright side we could break out in balkans like civl war in a great sorting and blood letting. Brighter than some other options we have seen the last 100 years at least.
I suspect us.gov would as effective rooting out domestic opposition as they have been in iraq and astan. With the added excitement of having fed.gov employees and their families living in the war zone.
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I suspect us.gov would as effective rooting out domestic opposition as they have been in iraq and astan. With the added excitement of having fed.gov employees and their families living in the war zone.
For some reason I have the feeling that in such an eventuality, our benevolent dear leaders would have fewer qualms about collateral damage when making hellfire missile strikes on US Citizens Anti-government domestic terrorists than what we see in the middle east.
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For some reason I have the feeling that in such an eventuality, our benevolent dear leaders would have fewer qualms about collateral damage when making hellfire missile strikes on US Citizens Anti-government domestic terrorists than what we see in the middle east.
OTOH, a substantial part (certainly not all) of the population WILL have qualms about supporting such acts here at home.
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For some reason I have the feeling that in such an eventuality, our benevolent dear leaders would have fewer qualms about collateral damage when making hellfire missile strikes on US Citizens Anti-government domestic terrorists than what we see in the middle east.
Well, the question is, how do the people who will actually be firing those missiles feel about it -- those guys who swore an allegiance to the Constitution and to protect from all enemies foreign and domestic?
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Well, the question is, how do the people who will actually be firing those missiles feel about it -- those guys who swore an allegiance to the Constitution and to protect from all enemies foreign and domestic?
Irrelevant.
Authoritarian regimes never lack for hired help when they are perceived as strong and/or on top. Of those currently serving, some will toe the ruling class's line, some will not. Replacements will be found for the latter after they have been purged. Only way to prevent this is to show the regime as weak or impose personal costs on the hired help.
It is not like this sort of thing never happened before. Expect the ruling class to increasingly rely on those ethnically alien to its enemies. It is the way of multiethnic empires to use one alien group to slaughter the other in turn.
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I don't want the USA to collapse. :mad:
If the modern political system of the US is immoral and unconstitutional, doesn't it deserve it though?
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Irrelevant.
Authoritarian regimes never lack for hired help when they are perceived as strong and/or on top. Of those currently serving, some will toe the ruling class's line, some will not. Replacements will be found for the latter after they have been purged. Only way to prevent this is to show the regime as weak or impose personal costs on the hired help.
It is not like this sort of thing never happened before. Expect the ruling class to increasingly rely on those ethnically alien to its enemies. It is the way of multiethnic empires to use one alien group to slaughter the other in turn.
*SIGH!* Yea. I was pretty much afraid it'd be something like that........
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If the modern political system of the US is immoral and unconstitutional, doesn't it deserve it though?
Which government in history has not been immoral in practice?
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Military service as a path to citizenship should provide enough manpower to keep the legacy Americans in line.
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Military service as a path to citizenship should provide enough manpower to keep the legacy Americans in line.
Ayup.
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Which government in history has not been immoral in practice?
The US government is one where most of society shares moral responsibility for its acts of immorality.
If one argues, say, that the prison-industrial complex, and things like marijuana prohibition, are morally wrong, then the people who vote for the politicians and judges and sheriffs who make and enforce the laws are morally responsible. Therefore these people deserve to suffer from a degree of economic hardship that is partly the result of this immoral system they voted for.
If one argues, say, that the government's wealth-transfer schemes are a form of theft from the productive to the unproductive, and are morally wrong, then the people who voted for the new taxes and regulations etc. deserve to suffer from the economic hardships.
If one believes America's moral fiber is decrepit, and Americans continue voting for immoral policies on both left and right, then to what extent this is true Americans deserve to suffer the consequences.
I of course believe that Americans are good people, that America is overall good and that overall the American people are good, decent, and patriotic, and that despite their differences both Liberal, Conservative, and libertarian voters and politicians are decent people who love their country. THey all have moral flaws (thus allowing for nonsense like the Patriot Act or, say, Chicago PD black sites to exist), but overall I believe America is decent and good.
This is why I don't believe the American Republic will collapse. I believe in America. All my predictions on this forum and elsewhere are based on my belief in:
1. Humanity.
2. America.
3. Freedom.
America will not collapse, the Republic will continue, the people predicting doom and gloom will be wrong again. People who bet against America are always wrong.
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Microbalog ....I wish I could believe that.
With the debt at 18 trillion and growing, and nothing being done about it, and more and more entitlements being given out, I don't see how America (as we know it) continues ad infinititum.
It can't. It just can't. Pretty platitudes notwithstanding, it can't. :'(
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America may well, likely will, survive. Just not in a form we're likely to recognize, much less approve of. We survived the War between the States. Japan survived utter destruction. Germany survived utter ruin and partition. We will survive. Some of us, anyway.
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We will survive. Some of us, anyway.
The country boys?
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The US government is one where most of society shares moral responsibility for its acts of immorality.
If one argues, say, that the prison-industrial complex, and things like marijuana prohibition, are morally wrong, then the people who vote for the politicians and judges and sheriffs who make and enforce the laws are morally responsible. Therefore these people deserve to suffer from a degree of economic hardship that is partly the result of this immoral system they voted for.
If one argues, say, that the government's wealth-transfer schemes are a form of theft from the productive to the unproductive, and are morally wrong, then the people who voted for the new taxes and regulations etc. deserve to suffer from the economic hardships.
If one believes America's moral fiber is decrepit, and Americans continue voting for immoral policies on both left and right, then to what extent this is true Americans deserve to suffer the consequences.
I of course believe that Americans are good people, that America is overall good and that overall the American people are good, decent, and patriotic, and that despite their differences both Liberal, Conservative, and libertarian voters and politicians are decent people who love their country. THey all have moral flaws (thus allowing for nonsense like the Patriot Act or, say, Chicago PD black sites to exist), but overall I believe America is decent and good.
This is why I don't believe the American Republic will collapse. I believe in America. All my predictions on this forum and elsewhere are based on my belief in:
1. Humanity.
2. America.
3. Freedom.
America will not collapse, the Republic will continue, the people predicting doom and gloom will be wrong again. People who bet against America are always wrong.
I believe in the ideals that lead to the American founding. (Which makes saying freedom redundant.)
I have no faith in Humanity, though. History provides more than enough evidence that humanity is ultimately selfish and short-sighted. People will happily vote for a despot.
I expect there will have to be the equivalent of a Monastery on a mountain to preserve the records of civilization for some time once we are plunged into the next dark age.
I hope it's not 1000 years before we get running water again, though.
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The country boys?
They'll likely be over represented, but "time and chance happeneth to them all".