Author Topic: EFF: Oops, We Did Not Think of That!  (Read 1772 times)

roo_ster

  • Kakistocracy--It's What's For Dinner.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 21,225
  • Hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats
EFF: Oops, We Did Not Think of That!
« on: February 26, 2015, 12:12:21 PM »
Dear FCC: Rethink The Vague "General Conduct" Rule

https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2015/02/dear-fcc-rethink-those-vague-general-conduct-rules


Quote
For many months, EFF has been working with a broad coalition of advocates to persuade the Federal Communications Commission to adopt new Open Internet rules that would survive legal scrutiny and actually help protect the Open Internet. Our message has been clear from the beginning: the FCC has a role to play, but its role must be firmly bounded.

Two weeks ago, we learned that we had likely managed the first goal—the FCC is going to do the right thing and reclassify broadband as a telecommunications service, giving it the ability to make new, meaningful Open Internet rules.  But we are deeply concerned that the FCC’s new rules will include a provision that sounds like a recipe for overreach and confusion: the so-called “general conduct rule.”

According to the FCC's own "Fact Sheet," the proposed rule will allow the FCC to review (and presumably punish) non-neutral practices that may “harm” consumers or edge providers.

Quote
it suggests that the FCC believes it has broad authority to pursue any number of practices—hardly the narrow, light-touch approach we need to protect the open Internet. Second, we worry that this rule will be extremely expensive in practice, because anyone wanting to bring a complaint will be hard-pressed to predict whether they will succeed. For example, how will the Commission determine “industry best standards and practices”? As a practical matter, it is likely that only companies that can afford years of litigation to answer these questions will be able to rely on the rule at all. Third, a multi-factor test gives the FCC an awful lot of discretion, potentially giving an unfair advantage to parties with insider influence.

I am generally in favor of treating net operators as common carriers (with all the privileges & responsibilities of CCs), but gov't looks like it has run riot in an orgy of self-aggrandizement.


Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton

brimic

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,270
Re: EFF: Oops, We Did Not Think of That!
« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2015, 02:00:40 PM »
There is only 2 ways the whole net neutrality thing is going to end:
1: Alternative blogs and political sites being shut down in a widespread manner, with dissidents being fined and arrested.
2: Massive ramp up of surveillance and data mining of internet users.

The FCC is already adopting Obama's ACA-esque net neutrality proposal- no one has read it, and no one knows what's in it, but this time they don't have to have a messy process where congress needs to vote on new laws. Laws that matter are now made by the Executive Branch and are put into place by unelected commissars.
"now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb" -Dark Helmet

"AK47's belong in the hands of soldiers mexican drug cartels"-
Barack Obama

RevDisk

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12,633
    • RevDisk.net
Re: EFF: Oops, We Did Not Think of That!
« Reply #2 on: February 26, 2015, 02:32:41 PM »

No, there were two ways of this ending:

1. "Free internet" wins, ISPs throttles anyone that doesn't pay them extra. Or that compete with their own services. And laugh at you when you complain, as they're immune from antitrust laws.
2. "Free internet" wins, government doesn't allow ISPs to selectively screw over customers for extra loot, but now regulate the internet, with all applicable horrors.

There was no flawless victory other than ISPs to STFU and let the status quo be. Not do deep packet inspection, or play games with network traffic. So that the FCC would continue to ignore the situation. The choice handed to the FCC, and America at large was a choice between two bad solutions. It's fun to pick on Comcast, as they're the worst of the worst generally, but all ISPs can and do pull bovine excrement where and when they can. Because why think of long term consequences instead of pushing for this quarter's numbers.

Anyone telling you that ISPs wouldn't use their positions for abuse and free market is perfect is drinking the Koolaid. Ditto anyone that thinks govt enforcement of "net neutrality" won't come with its own extremely high price tag.
"Rev, your picture is in my King James Bible, where Paul talks about "inventors of evil."  Yes, I know you'll take that as a compliment."  - Fistful, possibly highest compliment I've ever received.

brimic

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,270
Re: EFF: Oops, We Did Not Think of That!
« Reply #3 on: February 26, 2015, 02:49:46 PM »
Quote
No, there were two ways of this ending:

You missed my point- 'free' market reign for good or bad, is no longer going to be an option.
.Gov is going to control it, it would be pollyanna thinking that this is going to be for the better.
The FCC has adopted Obama's new rules, and we don't know what they are yet- its another "we have to pass it to see what's in it," except congress wasn't involved this time.
"now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb" -Dark Helmet

"AK47's belong in the hands of soldiers mexican drug cartels"-
Barack Obama

RevDisk

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12,633
    • RevDisk.net
Re: EFF: Oops, We Did Not Think of That!
« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2015, 03:05:59 PM »
You missed my point- 'free' market reign for good or bad, is no longer going to be an option.
.Gov is going to control it, it would be pollyanna thinking that this is going to be for the better.
The FCC has adopted Obama's new rules, and we don't know what they are yet- its another "we have to pass it to see what's in it," except congress wasn't involved this time.

Oh, I agree. Just saying neither was going to be a basket of roses. There'll be a good number of lawsuits until a law is passed that codifies things a bit. I suspect it'll be a generally bad, but we don't know how bad yet. I suspect not that bad at first. We'll see about five, ten years from now. Much like the Patriot Act, I suppose.

Anyone with half a brain could have told the ISPs that this was likely the end result when they started breaking the informal network neutrality that more or less existed for decades without significant problems. I hope the relevant VPs behind that decision are given a knife and some privacy.
"Rev, your picture is in my King James Bible, where Paul talks about "inventors of evil."  Yes, I know you'll take that as a compliment."  - Fistful, possibly highest compliment I've ever received.

lupinus

  • Southern Mod Trimutive Emeritus
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 9,178
Re:
« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2015, 03:15:19 PM »
Agree with Rev. But I doubt the knife part. They'll probably shake a lot of hands and get a nice bonus.
That is all. *expletive deleted*ck you all, eat *expletive deleted*it, and die in a fire. I have considered writing here a long parting section dedicated to each poster, but I have decided, at length, against it. *expletive deleted*ck you all and Hail Satan.

brimic

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,270
Re: EFF: Oops, We Did Not Think of That!
« Reply #6 on: February 26, 2015, 04:38:12 PM »
Q? Are the territories covered by ISPs already governed/and/or assigned by the FCC or other regulatory agency?

Where I used to live, the only viable options were AT&T and Charter, where I am now, its Time Warner and AT&T.
In fact, my current house did not formerly have Time Warner, and they had to send a tech out to my address to see if I could get their service. AFIAK, every house east of me on my street has time warner and every house west of the next house west of me has Charter. It seems that These companies have carefully defined boundaries where they can operate which pretty much makes them defacto monopolies.

If in fact, (I'm not entirely sure) these territorial monopolies are a result of government regulation, is more government regulation the correct answer?
"now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb" -Dark Helmet

"AK47's belong in the hands of soldiers mexican drug cartels"-
Barack Obama

RoadKingLarry

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 21,841
Re: EFF: Oops, We Did Not Think of That!
« Reply #7 on: February 26, 2015, 06:43:49 PM »
I for one, welcome our new digital overlords... [tinfoil]
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

Samuel Adams

MicroBalrog

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,505
Re: EFF: Oops, We Did Not Think of That!
« Reply #8 on: February 27, 2015, 01:01:34 AM »

If in fact, (I'm not entirely sure) these territorial monopolies are a result of government regulation, is more government regulation the correct answer?

I have access to two different telcos where I live, and more are expected to soon open.

But you forget that once people are accustomed to a given level of regulation it becomes transparent to them, and is soon referred to as a "free market in X".
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

RevDisk

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12,633
    • RevDisk.net
Re: EFF: Oops, We Did Not Think of That!
« Reply #9 on: February 27, 2015, 09:40:04 AM »
Q? Are the territories covered by ISPs already governed/and/or assigned by the FCC or other regulatory agency?

Where I used to live, the only viable options were AT&T and Charter, where I am now, its Time Warner and AT&T.
In fact, my current house did not formerly have Time Warner, and they had to send a tech out to my address to see if I could get their service. AFIAK, every house east of me on my street has time warner and every house west of the next house west of me has Charter. It seems that These companies have carefully defined boundaries where they can operate which pretty much makes them defacto monopolies.

If in fact, (I'm not entirely sure) these territorial monopolies are a result of government regulation, is more government regulation the correct answer?

Territories covered by ISP is controlled at the state and local level. Local governments demand things from the ISP (wife getting a no-work job, free service for the government buildings, etc), ISP provides the requests, ISP gets a monopoly. Biggest two issue is access to the utility poles and public right of ways. It is not possible to build a landline ISP without access to the poles and public right of ways. Control of the poles is what enforces the monopoly. They will always be willing to grant you access, at exorbitant rates after a brutal administrative process. Typical example would be that the poles would have to be surveyed. If a pole needs replacing, you'd need to pay for the entire replacement (not a portion of it, ISP and local govt pays nothing). Then your monthly rate is typically 5x-100x the actual cost of maintaining the pole, including all overhead. If there's something the ISP or local government wants but doesn't want to pay for, you pay for that too. New retaining wall nearby, drainage, erosion control, etc.

Wireless is assigned by FCC, and states have extremely little jurisdiction. There is also state level utility agency control. In general, they're in the pocket of the utilities, but sometimes you get results from them.

Telecommunication companies are given a mandate to provide telephone service to nearly every house. It's handled mainly via Universal Service Fund (USF). This only applies to telecommunications (ie POTS phone), it does not apply to internet service. Originally, “universality” of service was 'net neutrality' for telephones, not actual service to customers. Now it does mean universal service to customers. Telecommunication companies are granted preferential treatment, guaranteed profits, active suppression of competition and tax revenue from the USF. In return, they must provide universal telephone coverage (not broadband or internet), maintain the infrastructure and improve it. Telecomms aren't stupid, so they do the bare minimum in unprofitable areas.

This is primarily rural areas, not necessarily poor ones. Actually poor people can be extremely profitable to certain providers. Customer density is a huge factor of profitability of utility service. Servicing a single town of middle or low class customers is insanely more profitable than say a hundred billionaires that live a couple miles apart from each other.


There is disagreement of how burdensome the universal telephone service is to telecommunication companies. There's less disagreement that over time, it's becoming less burdensome as the infrastructure is built and needs only to be maintained. Though maintenance isn't cheap. Telecomms also claim that competition would defray the compensation from the Service Fund and make the system unsustainable.

You cannot separate utilities from government, because utilities rely on government or public property. Aside from extremely narrow circumstances, it would not be economical to provide any utility without access to public right of ways. That's why "these territorial monopolies" are classified as utilities. If they were economical or even possible without government property, then they wouldn't be utilities.

Internet and cellular services are sort of but not entirely considered utilities. They receive some of the benefits of being a utility, but also escape some of the downsides of being a utility. Again, landline telephone service is "net neutral". AT&T can't charge you extra for calling Papa Johns, or flat out refuse to connect the call, because Dominos paid off AT&T. Certain internet providers want the best of both worlds, with none of the downsides of either world. They want government protection and money, and they want the ability to pick and choose. It's perfectly understandable, as they want maximum profits and minimum liability.


There's no magic answer. Treating internet providers as utilities then puts them into the utility category. While they are forbidden from certain business practices (primarily selective service), they also become functionally immune from any meaningful competition. And government utility oversight often is very preferential to the utilities, as they tend to be compromised of former or future utility personnel. Think Treasury Department and Goldman Sachs. On the other hand, letting them conduct destructive practices against a captive consumer base isn't great either. I'm more partial to a solution that ensures universal minimum service with profitability for the providers, but also makes it easy to allow further competition. But widespread reform not possible when you're talking about thousands of municipalities.

Anyone screaming that one side is pure as new fallen snow doesn't understand the situation. It's a complex situation without a single best case because there's too many parties with conflicting interests and incentives.

« Last Edit: February 27, 2015, 09:47:34 AM by RevDisk »
"Rev, your picture is in my King James Bible, where Paul talks about "inventors of evil."  Yes, I know you'll take that as a compliment."  - Fistful, possibly highest compliment I've ever received.

brimic

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,270
Re: EFF: Oops, We Did Not Think of That!
« Reply #10 on: February 27, 2015, 10:19:48 AM »
Rev- thanks for the exvellent response. :cool:
"now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb" -Dark Helmet

"AK47's belong in the hands of soldiers mexican drug cartels"-
Barack Obama

KD5NRH

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 10,926
  • I'm too sexy for you people.
Re: EFF: Oops, We Did Not Think of That!
« Reply #11 on: February 27, 2015, 04:35:15 PM »
Wireless is assigned by FCC, and states have extremely little jurisdiction.

And wireless is what breaks the monopoly in many cases; even here, where we had rotary dial phones on a party line until 1992, we still have options for internet.

While you don't have a choice of the delivery provider of your electricity unless you put in a generator and make your own, you can get three different options for internet by three different methods in town; CenturyLink DSL, Northland Cable, or Our-Town (Totelcom) Wireless.  (And Hughes Net, if you don't mind the latency. And if you want to get really picky, a cellular modem is always an expensive option too.)  Out of town, you've still got CenturyLink in nearly all areas, and Wireless just depends on how high you can put the antenna. 

Monkeyleg

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,589
  • Tattaglia is a pimp.
    • http://www.gunshopfinder.com
Re: EFF: Oops, We Did Not Think of That!
« Reply #12 on: February 27, 2015, 07:59:41 PM »

Balog

  • Unrepentant race traitor
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 17,774
  • What if we tried more?
Re: EFF: Oops, We Did Not Think of That!
« Reply #13 on: February 27, 2015, 08:11:41 PM »
So, what's in it for Google? https://takeaction.withgoogle.com/page/content/thank-you-fcc/

NN would, in theory anyway, prevent a competitor like Bing from giving service providers a few billion to throttle all traffic through google but not their own site.
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

MicroBalrog

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,505
Re: EFF: Oops, We Did Not Think of That!
« Reply #14 on: February 27, 2015, 10:40:07 PM »
Internet doesn't have to use phone cables. Anywhere you have a phone company and a cable company as separate entities you can have competition between the two.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

RoadKingLarry

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 21,841
Re: EFF: Oops, We Did Not Think of That!
« Reply #15 on: February 28, 2015, 05:24:17 AM »
Even out here in the sticks I have more or less 4 options for internet. Telco, cable, satellite over Dish, and Hughes net, and I'm pretty sure at least the cable provider also has a home phone option. Being that one of them gives me a substantial employee discount the choice was pretty easy to make.

If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

Samuel Adams

MechAg94

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 33,787
Re: EFF: Oops, We Did Not Think of That!
« Reply #16 on: March 01, 2015, 06:57:22 PM »
Internet doesn't have to use phone cables. Anywhere you have a phone company and a cable company as separate entities you can have competition between the two.
That still isn't a free and open market by any means.  I think everyone forgets the free and open competition side of the Free Market deal.

Electricity here is supposedly deregulated.  Centerpoint owns all the power lines in the area.  Reliant Energy used to have the lines and supplied power.  Now they just supply power.  Centerpoint has the lines, but anyone can send you power over those lines.  I am sure there is more to it than that, but it seems to me that same thing needs to happen with phone and cable lines.  
« Last Edit: March 02, 2015, 09:52:54 AM by MechAg94 »
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

Hawkmoon

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 27,299
Re: EFF: Oops, We Did Not Think of That!
« Reply #17 on: March 01, 2015, 09:04:05 PM »
Dear EFF,

Be careful what you ask for ... you might get it.
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
100% Politically Incorrect by Design

RevDisk

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12,633
    • RevDisk.net
Re: EFF: Oops, We Did Not Think of That!
« Reply #18 on: March 02, 2015, 12:38:18 PM »

Another FCC decision was handed out, striking down some state laws that banned or heavily restricted municipal ISPs. As I previously mentioned, charters are generally handled at the local level. Usually a municipality does the easy thing, and takes the money from whoever wants the monopoly for that municipality. Once in a while, you get a municipality that gives the finger to the local telecomm companies and builds its own network.

So you get something like the city of Monticello, Minnesota. They offer 100Mbps up/down for $45/month. Which makes me want to start weeping.

http://www.monticellofiber.com/ResidentialServices.cfm?ID=91

Naturally, they were sued.

http://arstechnica.com/uncategorized/2008/09/telco-to-town-were-suing-you-because-we-care/
http://www.publicintegrity.org/2014/08/28/15404/how-big-telecom-smothers-city-run-broadband

Again, falls into the category of while the decision is overall good, but the overreaching of the FCC is worrisome. The FCC has pulled some excrement in the past, and likely will in the future. OTOH, the telecomm business model is entirely based on using public resources for private gain. This isn't a bad thing, far from it. But it gets a bit worrisome when their business model is essentially bribing politicians to screw over consumers, and sue anyone who tries to build a better mousetrap.
"Rev, your picture is in my King James Bible, where Paul talks about "inventors of evil."  Yes, I know you'll take that as a compliment."  - Fistful, possibly highest compliment I've ever received.