Joe "The Gaffe" Biden come on down

[Tallpine]

Well, as long as you're going to have an electric car that makes fake noises, might as well make it sound like an F-16 on takeoff.   


I wonder, will the "Santa Maria" model be an SUV

[sanglant]

I wonder, will the "Santa Maria" model be an SUV

i'm hoping for a 15 passenger van

[Angel Eyes]

Well, as long as you're going to have an electric car that makes fake noises, might as well make it sound like an F-16 on takeoff.   

Have programmable chips and an array of downloadable files so you can customize it to whatever you want.

On the other hand, some wise-acre would program his/hers to emit rude noises, so . . . never mind.

[Tallpine]

Have programmable chips and an array of downloadable files so you can customize it to whatever you want.

On the other hand, some wise-acre would program his/hers to emit rude noises, so . . . never mind.

WOOOO-WOOOOOO!

Chug-chug-chug-chug chug-chug-chug-chug

WOOOO-WOOOOOO!

Chug-chug-chug-chug chug-chug-chug-chug

WOOOO-WOOOOOO!

Chug-chug-chug-chug chug-chug-chug-chug

 

[MicroBalrog]

Have programmable chips and an array of downloadable files so you can customize it to whatever you want.

On the other hand, some wise-acre would program his/hers to emit rude noises, so . . . never mind.

Like So?

[BReilley]

WOOOO-WOOOOOO!

Chug-chug-chug-chug chug-chug-chug-chug

WOOOO-WOOOOOO!

Chug-chug-chug-chug chug-chug-chug-chug

WOOOO-WOOOOOO!

Chug-chug-chug-chug chug-chug-chug-chug

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nnzw_i4YmKk

[Sergeant Bob]

This story from WSJ Online tells me all I need to know...

Gore-Backed Car Firm Gets Large U.S. Loan

   
By JOSH MITCHELL and STEPHEN POWER

(See Corrections & Amplifications below.)

WASHINGTON -- A tiny car company backed by former Vice President Al Gore has just gotten a $529 million U.S. government loan to help build a hybrid sports car in Finland that will sell for about $89,000.

The award this week to California startup Fisker Automotive Inc. follows a $465 million government loan to Tesla Motors Inc., purveyors of a $109,000 British-built electric Roadster. Tesla is a California startup focusing on all-electric vehicles, with a number of celebrity endorsements that is backed by investors that have contributed to Democratic campaigns.

The awards to Fisker and Tesla have prompted concern from companies that have had their bids for loans rejected, and criticism from groups that question why vehicles aimed at the wealthiest customers are getting loans subsidized by taxpayers.

"This is not for average Americans," said Leslie Paige, a spokeswoman for Citizens Against Government Waste, an anti-tax group in Washington. "This is for people to put something in their driveway that is a conversation piece. It's status symbol thing."

DOE officials spent months working with Fisker on its application, touring its Irvine, Calif., and Pontiac, Mich., facilities and test-driving prototypes.

Matt Rogers, who oversees the department's loan programs as a senior adviser to Energy Secretary Steven Chu, said Fisker was awarded the loan after a "detailed technical review" that concluded the company could eventually deliver a highly fuel-efficient hybrid car to a mass audience. Fisker said most of its DOE loan will be used to finance U.S. production of a $40,000 family sedan that has yet to be designed.

"It's the ability to drive significant change in fuel economy across a large market segment" that swayed the department to approve the Fisker loan, Mr. Rogers said. "We got quite excited."

Henrik Fisker, who designed cars for BMW, Aston Martin and Tesla before starting his Fisker Automotive in 2007, said his goal is to build the first plug-in electric hybrids that won't sacrifice the luxury, performance and looks of traditional gas-powered luxury cars.

The Karma will target an exclusive audience -- Gore was one of the first to sign up for one. Mr. Fisker says all new technology starts out being expensive. He pointed to flat-screen televisions that once started at $25,000 but are now affordable to the mass market.

[Angel Eyes]

WOOOO-WOOOOOO!

Chug-chug-chug-chug chug-chug-chug-chug

That's not rude.  That's downright melodious.   

But the inventor of the whistle-tip exhaust should be shot.

[Tallpine]

He pointed to flat-screen televisions that once started at $25,000 but are now affordable to the mass market.

But the goobermint didn't subsidize that 

(well, maybe ... through Welfare  )

[Monkeyleg]

So Obama helps Gore get even richer by taking US taxpayer dollars that we've been promised would stimulate our economy and produce more jobs, gives that money to a Finnish company that in which Gore has an interest, to produce a car that only the most die-hard and well-off environmentalists will buy.

Sounds like an Obama plan to me. The only thing missing is the destruction of existing property of some type. Maybe we could firebomb the former Saturn plants in Spring Hill, TN.

[Gewehr98]

I'd consider buying one, Dick.   

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

Can you afford one?

[Monkeyleg]

I didn't know you were a tree-hugger, GW.

[Gewehr98]

Never mind.  Not worth it.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

I see cars like the Tesla and now this new Fisker.  I wonder who might buy them.  They don't appear to offer anything substantive over a conventional sports car.  I wonder who has the money to be able to drop $90k on something like a Tesla or a Fisker, given that their only differentiating feature is primarily symbolic.

It's one thing to drop $20k on a fun car.  It's another thing entirely to drop $90k on a fun car, 'specially when it's no better than average.  I can understand the former, I don't understand the latter.  

I didn't realize it'd be a problem to ask about it.  Sorry.

[dogmush]

I see cars like the Tesla and now this new Fisker.  I wonder who might buy them.  They don't appear to offer anything substantive over a conventional sports car.  I wonder who has the money to be able to drop $90k on something like a Tesla or a Fisker, given that their only differentiating feature is primarily symbolic.

It's one thing to drop $20k on a fun car.  It's another thing entirely to drop $90k on a fun car, 'specially when it's no better than average.  I can understand the former, I don't understand the latter.  

I didn't realize it'd be a problem to ask about it.  Sorry.

Well, a couple things.

Electric cars tend to be lighter then their gas counterparts, also since the driveline isin't mechanicly connected it allows designers to move the heavy parts to optimize weight distribution.  So lighter, and more nimble cars.  Also electric motors provide peak torque from 0RPM gives you really good acceleration numbers. So from a pure sportscar point of veiw they probably drive really well.  Batt life is an issue, but one that seems to be being overcome.

And yes $90k is a little steep, both Tesla and Fisker are aiming at the $40k-$50k for their second gen cars.  As I pointed out in my last post the market for $50k sport-sedans seems to be pretty strong.  Lots of them are selling.

Why all the hate for EV's? If they can get the tech to work it seems like a neat alternitive.  If it's too "green" for you remember that there's a good chance the electricity was produced by coal, so it's nice and dirty.

The government has subsidised all kinds of cool and usefull tech over the years. I'm not a huge fan of .gov spending in most forms, and I'd rather this was funded privately if I through out everything in my house that took .gov money in the research phase my house would be pretty empty.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

The problem with electric cars is that the drive systems cost so much more than the equivalent gasoline counterpart.  At any given price point, an electric car will have to skimp on other areas of the vehicle in order to support those pricey electrical systems, making it a crummier car overall than the gas version would be.  Either that, or the electric version will cost a lot more for the same level of quality.

Maybe someday they'll get the electric cars to price parity with gas.  Maybe.  The Prius has had, what, a decade so far of development and full-scale production?  It's still priced a third higher than other Toyotas of similar size and quality.  

[Monkeyleg]

HTG, as with just about every other new consumer technology, prices on electric cars will come down as more people buy them. As the prices come down, the number of additional features and amenities will go up as well.

The difficulty with the transition is that fossil-fueled vehicles are one of the foundations of our society, and a complete change can't come quickly. It's not like flat-screen TV's or computers or other devices that can simply be plugged in without change to a person's lifestyle or job.

We're going to have years of overlap of gasoline and electric cars. Those in DC who are pushing alternative fuels and rejecting more drilling, refining, shale, and nuclear seem to be in denial of that inevitable overlap.

If it's too "green" for you remember that there's a good chance the electricity was produced by coal, so it's nice and dirty.

Nothing that several dozen more nuclear reactors wouldn't solve.

[Tallpine]

The problem with electric cars is that the drive systems cost so much more than the equivalent gasoline counterpart.  At any given price point, an electric car will have to skimp on other areas of the vehicle in order to support those pricey electrical systems, making it a crummier car overall than the gas version would be.  Either that, or the electric version will cost a lot more for the same level of quality.

Maybe someday they'll get the electric cars to price parity with gas.  Maybe.  The Prius has had, what, a decade so far of development and full-scale production?  It's still priced a third higher than other Toyotas of similar size and quality.  

Other than the problematic batteries, electric motors probably have a 10-1 or more lifespan over IC engines.  So now you have a crummy car that never wears out...  :|

If electric vehicles were comparable in price and all other ways, I'd buy one in a heartbeat - well, a heartbeat plus 10-15 years since I usually buy used vehicles 

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

Everybody seems to think it's just a matter of time before this electric car stuff gets as cheap as the old gasoline stuff.  I don't buy it.  Power semiconductors don't scale well to large volume production.  Neither do batteries.  I don't think it's realistic to expect this type of technology to economize as well or as quickly as flat screen TVs or computers.  The electric car technology doesn't lend itself to the same kind of exponential growth model that some other electronics do.

We shall see.

[dogmush]

The problem with electric cars is that the drive systems cost so much more than the equivalent gasoline counterpart.  At any given price point, an electric car will have to skimp on other areas of the vehicle in order to support those pricey electrical systems, making it a crummier car overall than the gas version would be.  

Define "so much more".

A Tesla roadster is bulit on a Lotus chasis.  It costs $100,000 and is from all reports a comfy car to drive.  Quiet, good seats, good stereo, climate control, all that stuff.  It also corners like a race car and does 0-60 in 3.7 sec.  To get a Lotus to close to that performance level, you need to buy an Exige X250.  You'll be about .3 sec down in the 0-60 (which is a lot on a track) and a tic behind in the corners.  Now I've driven a Lotus.  It feels like you're driving a race car (you are actually)  Loud, bumpy, not very comfy.  Magazine folks that have driven both say the Tesla is nicer.  The Lotus tricked out is about $85,000.  There's a decent market for right around $100,000 track cars (just go to a SCCA event near a big town), and Tesla has slid right into it.  They've got a waiting list to buy right now, so someone's buying them.

The Tesla Model S is a 7 passenger sedan, with full leather, climate control, 17" touchscreen nav, and under 6 sec 0-60.  It's pretty obviously aiming at a 5-seris BMW crowd, for $49,900 (supposedly.  Fisker's sedan is aiming at the same price point and options point.  A BMW 535i MSRP's for $51,100.

Now that assumes that they get these cars to market at the intended price point, but Tesal at least has managed to market and sell cars so far.  IF they make those goals, (price and optionwise) EV's will be a lot closer to the aforementioned overlap phase.  A heck of a lot closer then the Volt anyway.  Some folks have relized that just electric isin't enough.  It has to be a cool car before folks will buy it.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

Huh?  

The comparable Lotus Exige 260 costs $75k, which puts it at about $45k cheaper than the Tesla's $110k price tag.  Assuming the manufacturers respective acceleration specs are honest, the Tesla would be an insignificant hair quicker in a straight line, 0-6 in 3.9s vs 4.0s for the Lotus.  But since the Tesla weighs some 35% more than the Lotus (2700 lbs vs 2000 lbs), the Lotus is likely to be the clear winner in the twisties.

The on-paper specs come out to a wash, more or less.  I'd give a slight edge to the Lotus for being so much lighter.  And the Lotus is clearly a much cheaper car.

[dogmush]

Huh?  

The comparable Lotus Exige 260 costs $75k, which puts it at about $45k cheaper than the Tesla's $110k price tag.  Assuming the manufacturers respective acceleration specs are honest, the Tesla would be an insignificant hair quicker in a straight line, 0-6 in 3.9s vs 4.0s for the Lotus.  But since the Tesla weighs some 35% more than the Lotus (2700 lbs vs 2000 lbs), the Lotus is likely to be the clear winner in the twisties.

The on-paper specs come out to a wash, more or less.  I'd give a slight edge to the Lotus for being so much lighter.  And the Lotus is clearly a much cheaper car.

I was going by an 85K window sticker on an optioned out Exige I saw at the Tampa Autoshow last week.  It seemed from talking to the dealer that that was what it was going to take to get one, I didn't even go to their site.  You're correct that a 260's MSRP is 75K, while the Tesla's is 105K. So $30k MSRP to MSRP.  I could find another roadster in the same class for more $ without too much trouble.  I'm not trying to turn this into an EV love fest.

My point is, this type of car (EV/plug-in hybred) has come a long way in the last 10 or so years, and seems poised to make another huge leap in the next 5 or so years.  There's obvioulsy a market for Prii as I seem to trip over them these days.  If these two (or another) manufacturers can deliver a sport sedan, to compete in the $40-$50 range, as they both seem to think they can, I think it'll sell like hotcakes.  The only real tech hurdles are cost, and range, and both Tesla and Fisker seem to think they have those licked.  If they do, why all the EV hate?

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

My point is, this type of car (EV/plug-in hybred) has come a long way in the last 10 or so years, and seems poised to make another huge leap in the next 5 or so years.  

Based on what, exactly?  Everyone seems to assume that those wily electrical engineers will figure out how to cut that extra 30% out of the cost of hybrids to make them cost competitive with similar gasoline cars.  As an electrical engineer myself, I have to ask, what on earth gives anyone that idea?  Electric car technology isn't particularly compatible with Moore's Law, ya know.

The only real tech hurdles are cost, and range, and both Tesla and Fisker seem to think they have those licked.  If they do, why all the EV hate?

Because A) those aren't the only hurdles, and B) we have nothing except their own PR to indicate that they have these problems licked.

I think a bit more skepticism is indicated here.

[White Horseradish]

Well, a couple things.

Electric cars tend to be lighter then their gas counterparts,

Right. Until you put the batteries in. At which point they get quite a bit heavier. Seriously, where do you get this idea? An electric motor is lighter than a gasoline one, but there is no battery that can be the size and weight of a tank of gas and power a car.

Why all the hate for EV's? If they can get the tech to work it seems like a neat alternitive.  If it's too "green" for you remember that there's a good chance the electricity was produced by coal, so it's nice and dirty.

My #1 problem with EV is that they all are conceived and built someplace warm, like California. All the specs are for that climate. Down here, in flyover country, we have snow and regular temps around -20F in winter.  Nobody ever mentions what effect low temp has on batteries, how much serious use of heaters lowers the range, or how these heavy cars handle on ice. Plus, there is a lack of a charging infrastructure, charge times that far exceed the time needed to fill a gas tank, uncertain battery replacement (and potentially high cost).