Author Topic: from social justice and economic justice to...voting justice  (Read 10931 times)

tyme

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Re: from social justice and economic justice to...voting justice
« Reply #25 on: June 18, 2010, 08:47:01 PM »
Okay.  However, the article says close to 50% of the voters are Hispanic.  So the problem seems to be that Hispanic voters are not preferring Hispanic candidates, or at least they are splitting their vote among way too many Hispanic candidates to get any of them elected.  Either way I don't see how cumulative voting will help.
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longeyes

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Re: from social justice and economic justice to...voting justice
« Reply #26 on: June 18, 2010, 11:22:36 PM »
Vote system that elected NY Hispanic could expand

By JIM FITZGERALD
The Associated Press
Friday, June 18, 2010; 6:29 PM
PORT CHESTER, N.Y. -- The court-ordered election that allowed residents of one New York town to flip the lever six times for one candidate - and produced a Hispanic winner - could expand to other towns where minorities complain their voices aren't being heard.

But first, interested parties will want to take a look at the exit surveys.

The unusual election was imposed on Port Chester after a federal judge determined that Hispanics were being treated unfairly.

The 2010 Census is expected to show large increases in Latino populations and lawsuits alleging discrimination are likely to increase, said Rob Richie, executive director of FairVote, a nonprofit election research and reform group.

"The country's been changing in a lot of places, with minority growth in exurbs and commuter cities, and there will be a realization that those minorities can't elect candidates of choice," Richie said.

That will leave minority groups, federal prosecutors and municipalities looking for ways to keep elections from violating the federal Voting Rights Act, which protects minorities' constitutional right to equal protection under the law.

In Port Chester, trustees had been elected two at a time every two years, with conventional at-large voting. Most voters were white, and there were always six white trustees even though Hispanics made up half the population and nearly a quarter of the voters. Judge Stephen Robinson concluded the system violated U.S. law by diluting Hispanics' votes.



The standard remedy was to break a municipality into districts, with one district including many from the minority, thereby increasing the chances for a candidate backed by the minority group. The Justice Department proposed that solution for Port Chester.

But the village of about 30,000 objected to districts. It suggested instead a system called cumulative voting. All six trustees would be elected at once and the voters could apportion their six votes as they wished - all six to one candidate, one each to six candidates or any combination.

The system, which has been used in Alabama, Illinois, South Dakota and Texas, allows a political minority to gain representation if it organizes behind specific candidates. Judge Robinson went for it, and cumulative voting was used for the first time in a New York municipality.

Peruvian immigrant Luis Marino, 43, finished fourth, making him Port Chester's first Hispanic trustee.

"It helped me get elected," said Marino, a Democrat who works in maintenance at the Scarsdale schools. "I will be representing all the people of Port Chester, but I am aware that I can help Hispanics bring their concerns to the board."

Voters also elected a black trustee for the first time: Joseph Kenner, a Republican who was already on the board as an appointee.

The village said Friday that 3,278 residents voted, about 31 percent of those registered, a slightly higher turnout than usual. Hispanic turnout had not been analyzed, but Richie said about a quarter of all votes went to Hispanic candidates.

Marino's victory might prompt other judges to consider cumulative voting as a remedy.

"The way this election was implemented in Port Chester can be an example for other jurisdictions with similar problems," said Randolph McLaughlin, a lawyer who has represented plaintiffs in several voters' rights cases, including Port Chester's. He cautioned, however, that the success was not just due to the unusual election system, but "was the result of the work that went in before the election."

That work - an extensive voter education program - was the principal subject of exit surveys. The questions, in Spanish and English, weren't about whom they voted for but about how well they understood the system and what strategy they used in voting.

The survey also asked which of Port Chester's outreach programs - a website, radio and TV commercials, voter forums, handouts - were helpful.

Voter education was a requirement of the settlement, but Port Chester officials believe they went beyond their obligation.

"We put so much emphasis on education - we may have spent $100 a voter - because we knew it would be critical to success," said village spokesman Aldo Vitagliano. "We also know that the next community can point to Port Chester and say `That's how it's done.'"

Two political science professors - David Kimball of the University of Missouri-St. Louis and Martha Knopf of the University of North Carolina at Charlotte - were hired to analyze the Port Chester data. Kimball said their report would take a few weeks.

"There's a very important issue here: Were voters comfortable? Did they understand how it works?" Kimball said. "Did they plump (give more than one vote to a candidate)? Did they know they could plump?"

Until there's a separate analysis of the votes, including who did well in Hispanic neighborhoods, it won't be known for sure if Marino was actually the preferred candidate of Latino voters.

"The election of a Hispanic candidate does not necessarily mean that a Hispanic-supported candidate was chosen," McLaughlin said. "But it's definitely a step forward."
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MicroBalrog

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Re: from social justice and economic justice to...voting justice
« Reply #27 on: June 19, 2010, 12:34:52 AM »
Quote
But the village of about 30,000 objected to districts. It suggested instead a system called cumulative voting. All six trustees would be elected at once and the voters could apportion their six votes as they wished - all six to one candidate, one each to six candidates or any combination.

So it's not actually a solution a judge imposed out of the blue?
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Re: from social justice and economic justice to...voting justice
« Reply #28 on: June 19, 2010, 02:35:50 AM »
In Port Chester, trustees had been elected two at a time every two years, with conventional at-large voting.
Quote
All six trustees would be elected at once and the voters could apportion their six votes as they wished - all six to one candidate, one each to six candidates or any combination.

I wonder if they considered that there might have been a very good reason for staggering the terms before...or for nearly every elected body in the country to do the same.  Granted, I'm in favor of the occasional full housecleaning, but the system was designed that way so nobody can stack the board too easily; it takes two separate elections to seat a majority of new members, and half of them will be fully in the public eye in the intervening period.


makattak

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Re: from social justice and economic justice to...voting justice
« Reply #29 on: June 19, 2010, 11:55:12 AM »
When?  Where?  Most elections in this country are single-winner, and that seems to be a multi-winner method in its standard form; although it could be used for a single-winner election, I haven't found any real-world U.S. examples.

From the article I linked:

Quote
Cumulative voting is used frequently in corporate governance, where it is mandated by many U.S. states. It was used to elect the Illinois House of Representatives from 1870 until its repeal in 1980 and used in England in the late 19th century to elect some school boards. As of November 2009, more than fifty communities in the United States use cumulative voting, all resulting from cases brought under the federal Voting Rights Act. Among them are Peoria, Illinois for half of its city council, Chilton County, Alabama for its county council and school board, and Amarillo, Texas, for its school board and College Board of Regents [1]. Courts sometimes mandate its use when they deem it necessary to provide fair representation; an example of this occurred in 2009 in Port Chester, New York.[2][3][4]

I grew up an hour away from Peoria.

Further, this seems to be a common response to Voting Rights act "problems".

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longeyes

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Re: from social justice and economic justice to...voting justice
« Reply #30 on: June 19, 2010, 01:56:30 PM »
And "fair representation" amounts to what exactly?  Apportionment by race/ethnicity?  To me that is un-American, but then I am, I admit, "old school."
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MicroBalrog

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Re: from social justice and economic justice to...voting justice
« Reply #31 on: June 19, 2010, 02:01:56 PM »
And "fair representation" amounts to what exactly?  Apportionment by race/ethnicity?  To me that is un-American, but then I am, I admit, "old school."

How is six votes per person, equally, unfair?
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longeyes

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Re: from social justice and economic justice to...voting justice
« Reply #32 on: June 19, 2010, 05:45:57 PM »
You're right, but make it twenty.

Got to move more Latinos in there, man.
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longeyes

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Re: from social justice and economic justice to...voting justice
« Reply #33 on: June 19, 2010, 05:48:52 PM »
Again: the problem being solved...?
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Re: from social justice and economic justice to...voting justice
« Reply #34 on: June 19, 2010, 06:31:27 PM »
I can only see one point in this - marginalizing the undecided voters. They will, theoretically, negate their own votes (or most of them), thus reducing their power significantly - paving the way for true believers of either side to get elected.

MicroBalrog

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Re: from social justice and economic justice to...voting justice
« Reply #35 on: June 19, 2010, 07:47:27 PM »
Longeyes:

The  world is not ending. The town's own government wanted this. It does not violate any precepts of equality (after all everybody gets the same vote). I see no reason why I should be emoting over this.
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longeyes

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Re: from social justice and economic justice to...voting justice
« Reply #36 on: June 20, 2010, 02:19:20 PM »
The "world" is not ending.  Okay.

Can I take that to the bank?

But then I live here, not where you do.  To me it appears that slowly but surely the foundation of civilized society, as I know it, is being eaten away by "the termites."  They're slow eaters but they're determined.

I consider this judicial decision to be nothing more than a ploy to give one ethnic group power at the expense of others, and to me this is invidious. 
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MicroBalrog

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Re: from social justice and economic justice to...voting justice
« Reply #37 on: June 20, 2010, 07:48:31 PM »
Quote
I consider this judicial decision to be nothing more than a ploy to give one ethnic group power at the expense of others, and to me this is invidious. 

In what way does it actually do that?

Everybody has the same six votes, do they not?
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: from social justice and economic justice to...voting justice
« Reply #38 on: June 20, 2010, 07:51:23 PM »
you keep going back to that fact and ignoring the visceral/emotional aspects  it must be unfair somehow
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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GigaBuist

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Re: from social justice and economic justice to...voting justice
« Reply #39 on: June 21, 2010, 12:29:07 AM »
you keep going back to that fact and ignoring the visceral/emotional aspects

Heaven forbid we'd simply look at the facts!

There's six positions up for election and everybody gets six votes.  It's exactly how my local elections work for the township board here and I can assure you we don't do it that way to appease any minority group.  It's just a sensible way of doing things.

Is there anything discriminatory in this new election style?  No.  Not unless the town is populated by white people that can't count to six.  And I doubt that's the case.

AmbulanceDriver

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Re: from social justice and economic justice to...voting justice
« Reply #40 on: June 21, 2010, 12:43:20 AM »
My beef with this decision is not the what, but rather the why.  If it'd been established as GigaBuist described, as just a logical way of electing 6 positions, I'd be ok with it.  My beef is that this was done strictly for political correctness.  The "wrong" people kept getting elected, and heaven forbid we let the "wrong" people get elected....
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Re: from social justice and economic justice to...voting justice
« Reply #41 on: June 21, 2010, 01:29:40 AM »
   This sounds to me like trying to fix something that is not broken.
   They got a hispanic elected,,, maybe that is from the 100$ per voter they spent on educating them?
   EVERYONE gets six votes. (Maybe next year they will be allocated differently?)
   I do think this is something that should have been voted on, not decided by a judge.
   I see the smoke and mirrors, but I am not smart enough to see what is hidden there.
   My BS detector light is flashing, and this flunked my sniff test.

 

longeyes

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Re: from social justice and economic justice to...voting justice
« Reply #42 on: June 21, 2010, 11:29:20 AM »
AmbulanceDriver has reiterated my point.  What is the WHY here?  "NEH?"  Not Enought Hispanics?  Whose fault is it if Hispanics don't vote the way the elites think they should?  But why also should every "Hispanic" be expected to vote "for Hispanics?"  Do we expect white people to always vote for the interests of white people?  Is that the America we want?  It's sure as hell not mine.
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sanglant

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Re: from social justice and economic justice to...voting justice
« Reply #43 on: June 23, 2010, 08:44:22 AM »
just wait 'till some kkk idiot, is elected. after that, they will never admit they came up with this plan. [popcorn]

Ron

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Re: from social justice and economic justice to...voting justice
« Reply #44 on: June 23, 2010, 09:24:54 AM »
This way of voting makes it easier for the looters to vote in their strong man of choice. Seems pretty obvious to me.

Extrapolate this system to a presidential election with republican and democrat candidates having to run against a Chavista type reformer, one who is going to bring social justice to our inner cities and welfare dependents. The poor and the hard core progressives could easily swing an election and get a full blown communist elected.  
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MicroBalrog

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Re: from social justice and economic justice to...voting justice
« Reply #45 on: June 23, 2010, 10:18:24 AM »
AmbulanceDriver has reiterated my point.  What is the WHY here?  "NEH?"  Not Enought Hispanics?  Whose fault is it if Hispanics don't vote the way the elites think they should?  But why also should every "Hispanic" be expected to vote "for Hispanics?"  Do we expect white people to always vote for the interests of white people?  Is that the America we want?  It's sure as hell not mine.

The system, though, doesn't operate on WHY.

The system operates on HOW.

Have the rules been followed in passing this reform? The article say this option was promoted by the town's representatives themselves and that the court chose between several possible resolutions and chose the one favored locally.

Do the new rules violate anybody's rights? No. Everybody has an equal amount of votes.  The new voting method not discriminatory in any way, except against the stupid.
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longeyes

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Re: from social justice and economic justice to...voting justice
« Reply #46 on: June 23, 2010, 10:43:06 AM »
Of course "the system" operates on WHY.  There are motives behind everything.  In this case, clear political motives familiar to all of us.  Ignoring the Left's master plan for America, as we've been doing for decades, has brought us to this point.  Time to wake up.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: from social justice and economic justice to...voting justice
« Reply #47 on: June 23, 2010, 10:54:39 AM »
Of course "the system" operates on WHY.  There are motives behind everything.  In this case, clear political motives familiar to all of us.  Ignoring the Left's master plan for America, as we've been doing for decades, has brought us to this point.  Time to wake up.

What I mean to say is that political decisions are not made legitimate or illegitimate based on motive, but based on whether the rules are followed.
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Re: from social justice and economic justice to...voting justice
« Reply #48 on: June 23, 2010, 11:04:35 AM »
Girl that works for us is Black.  Has multiple college degrees, and has taken alot of sociology and black studies.  She told me that one thing she learned in those studies is that minorities often don't trust other minorities or even those of thier own race when it comes to business and government.
The thing being ignored by the powers that be here is that the Hispanics may very well be voting for someone who isn't hispanic.  It'll be interesting to see if the results in future elections change at all.
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Re: from social justice and economic justice to...voting justice
« Reply #49 on: June 23, 2010, 05:19:09 PM »
Micro: you're ignoring the fact that the reason and stated purpose behind this law is electing more Hispanics, because there were,kt enough being elected to please the feds.

That's not hyperventilating, that's not speculation. That is the stated purpose of this decision.
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