DHS Ammo Purchase of 1.6 billion rounds, and FLETC quote

[AZRedhawk44]

http://www.forbes.com/sites/ralphbenko/2013/03/11/1-6-billion-rounds-of-ammo-for-homeland-security-its-time-for-a-national-conversation/

The 1.6 billion rounds of ammo number is old news.

But these quotes from the above article is worthy of attention:  They are the first actual pieces of numerical consumption rate data I've seen correlated to this issue.

Also reported elsewhere, at the height of the Iraq War the Army was expending less than 6 million rounds a month.  1.6 billion rounds, therefore, would be enough to sustain a hot war for 20+ years.  In America.

Followed by this:

Spending money this way is beyond absurd well into perverse.  According to the AP story a DHS spokesperson justifies this acquisition to “help the government get a low price for a big purchase.” Peggy Dixon, spokeswoman for the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center:  “The training center and others like it run by the Homeland Security Department use as many as 15 million rounds every year, mostly on shooting ranges and in training exercises.”

At 15 million rounds (which, in itself, is pretty extraordinary and sounds more like fun target-shooting-at-taxpayer-expense than a sensible training exercise) … that’s a stockpile that would last DHS over a century.  To claim that it’s to “get a low price” for a ridiculously wasteful amount is an argument that could only fool a career civil servant.

1.6 billion rounds will serve FLETC and all affiliated training programs for over a century.

So, the two uses that DHS has for these rounds are training... and... live fire?

A live fire war with matching round expenditures to the Iraq war would have a live conflict between DHS and "someone" for 20 years, and they wouldn't run out of ammo.



Finally, even if DHS really does want 100 years worth of ammo on hand... they won't be using Sig 226's, Glock 22's and Colt M4's for the next 100 years.  Or 9mm/.40S&W/.223 chamberings.

Srsly, what frigging government WANTS to use 20 year old, 50 year old, or older ammo?  They all sell off their ammo after a certain age.

[RevDisk]

FLETC, DHS itself, all of its sub-agencies, and other agencies are likely in on the deal.

It's bulk purchasing, and it will save the government a fair amount of loot. The 1.6 billion rounds are not made in one shipment. And also, I haven't read the contract, but it could be a purchase contract to buy UP TO the specified amount. Or phased purchase. Say 1/20th the total amount for 20 years. If FLETC is burning 15 million rounds a year, that's 300 million rounds over 20 years.

Some folks have their tin foil on too tight.

[S. Williamson]

I'm just curious as to exactly who they're buying it all from. 

[dm1333]

Yeah, I'm gonna buy stock in that company!   

[Balog]

Does anyone have an actual copy of this contract? I see a lot of speculation about what it might be but no real evidence either way.

[MicroBalrog]

Finally, even if DHS really does want 100 years worth of ammo on hand... they won't be using Sig 226's, Glock 22's and Colt M4's for the next 100 years.  Or 9mm/.40S&W/.223 chamberings.

9mm has been issued with the German military and various branches thereof for over 100 years already.

[geronimotwo]

I'm just curious as to exactly who they're buying it all from. 

must be walmart, they've been out of it for a while.  

[Fitz]

I haven't seen the contract but I've seen similar contracts, and the total amount purchased never comes close to the upper limit on the contract

[SADShooter]

Without knowing the particulars of this case, in general the amount of effort that goes into a Fed procurement or service contract is such that a high potential ceiling makes sense. Having to requote/bid, extend or start the process over can be much more hassle.

[kgbsquirrel]

Even if they did make that full purchase, that's roughly 6,500 rounds per DHS employee (quarter million employees). At a modest pace of training, even if it was only to supply half those employees, that would be about 20 years worth of training ammo.

I did a poll here a while back, I seem to recall the math working out that on a per capita basis we, as private citizens, far out-stripped DHS in ammo purchases.

*dig*

Here it is: http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=35719.0

[AZRedhawk44]

9mm has been issued with the German military and various branches thereof for over 100 years already.

The 9x19 cartridge in general, yes.

But... the bullet construction technology?  The powder formulation and degree of smoke versus flash?  Reliability of the primer as it ages?

That portion of the ammo industry seems to come up with something new every 10 years or so. 

[Jamisjockey]

FLETC, DHS itself, all of its sub-agencies, and other agencies are likely in on the deal.

It's bulk purchasing, and it will save the government a fair amount of loot. The 1.6 billion rounds are not made in one shipment. And also, I haven't read the contract, but it could be a purchase contract to buy UP TO the specified amount. Or phased purchase. Say 1/20th the total amount for 20 years. If FLETC is burning 15 million rounds a year, that's 300 million rounds over 20 years.

Some folks have their tin foil on too tight.

Not just this.

Imagine you have someone else's checkbook, a nearly bottomless credit limit, and the ability to store as much ammo as you possibly can.
And a need for practice ammo, as well as supplying various angencies with ammo for a number of situations.
And there has been numerous shortages in the last decade.  The current one has affected both civilians and LEO agencies.
Wouldn't you buy as much ammo as possible?

My only   to the ammo purchase is I stronly question whether the intent was to also help cause a shortage in the civilian market.  We know there are those in this administration and in this government that would like to disarm us.  I lean towards it being simple nannystatisim, tempered with a bit of the old government through "crisis" mentality.

[AJ Dual]

I haven't seen the contract but I've seen similar contracts, and the total amount purchased never comes close to the upper limit on the contract

Yeah. Folks with little or no experience with .gov procurement don't understand the huge amount of padding and boiler plate that goes into these contracts.

Including a pie-in-the-sky upper limit on the quantity of "whatever" gets them a slightly better deal from the vendor on the .001% chance the .gov may order the full amount, even though both sides know they won't. Or that really high number greases the rails for other aspects of the RFP and the contract. Like scaring away smaller vendors who might just manage to handle the actual number the .gov might order in X years, but it's iffy, with a significant chance of failure to deliver at some point. So it also serves as a way to reserve the bids and RFP's to tier 1 manufacturers and providers, and they don't have to deal with the headache of finding other creative ways to reject other bids.

If DHS made the RFP/bid reqs. for the actual amount they're likely to use over the next 5 years, and it was some number in the millions, Joe-Bob's Ammo, running out of his garage might figure he can just squeak that order out, so he'll bid on it, despite the fact on year two, lighting hits his house, his dog dies, and his wife gets cancer or something... stuff .gov understandably does not want to deal with. Joe-Bob obviously won't see it that way, so he whines to his Congressman, who then sends a bunch of nasty letters to folks in DHS who have to spend yet more time smoothing things over...

So DHS makes the RFP in the billions so only ATK/Federal, and Olin Winchester will bite, even though the actual number delivered might just be 1/10th, 1/20th, or even 1/100th of that.

It's not really any evidence of a vast conspiracy, it's just a symptom of how unbelievably farked up .gov procurement and accounting is, cost-plus contracting, baseline-budgeting etc. as compared to the private sector.

My only   to the ammo purchase is I stronly question whether the intent was to also help cause a shortage in the civilian market.  We know there are those in this administration and in this government that would like to disarm us.  I lean towards it being simple nannystatisim, tempered with a bit of the old government through "crisis" mentality.

From what I've been finding out from "big ammo" and how they run things at places like Lake City, it won't affect things that much. It might even help drop the cost of US made .40 a bit, or if not that, at least up the .40 supply some. From what I've been told, it would take WWIII to make them actually yank the dies of other calibers off of the machines to make some other caliber. Or actually order the dies, or make them or whatever in the first place.

My only  - thought on this is it could indicate someone at DHS is projecting fiscal trouble to the point they may not be able to procure the ammo later due to monetary instability, and trying to lock ATK in on the contract now while the USD/FRN is still worth "X". However, I'd have to see other large purchases of shelf-stable consumables by other .gov entities before I'd believe even that.

[Monkeyleg]

It's not really any evidence of a vast conspiracy, it's just a symptom of how unbelievably farked up .gov procurement and accounting is, cost-plus contracting, baseline-budgeting etc. as compared to the private sector.

Very true. Most private sector companies buy on an on-time, as-needed basis, rather than tying up money in parts and supplies. I thought my crazy sister-in-law was nuts for buying 800 pounds of dog food all at once, but the government makes her look sane.

[T.O.M.]

Yeah, I know a lot of people saw this as a sign of impending martial law and such, but I saw it as another crappy .gov contract.

As for the age of ammo, when I was in back in the 80's and 90's, some of the ammo we were using was WWII surplus, especially some of the .50.

[kgbsquirrel]

Yeah, I know a lot of people saw this as a sign of impending martial law and such, but I saw it as another crappy .gov contract.

As for the age of ammo, when I was in back in the 80's and 90's, some of the ammo we were using was WWII surplus, especially some of the .50.

And it's really not an issue either. Properly stored lead azide/styphnate primed smokeless cartridges have a shelf-life up into centuries.

[Tallpine]

It's not really any evidence of a vast conspiracy, it's just a symptom of how unbelievably farked up .gov procurement and accounting is, cost-plus contracting, baseline-budgeting etc. as compared to the private sector.

Well I guess it's all okay then.

[T.O.M.]

Not okay, Tallpine...just another symptom of our .gov acting like an irresponsible teen with a first credt card.  Spend,, spend, spend.

[longeyes]

Since when does the Federal government have the right to corner the market on materiel "just in case?"  They are saving costs by drying up the private market?  The Feds are not supposed to be first in line for everything in a Republic.

[kgbsquirrel]

Since when does the Federal government have the right to corner the market on materiel "just in case?"  They are saving costs by drying up the private market?  The Feds are not supposed to be first in line for everything in a Republic.

That presumes we are still living in a Republic. To me it has looked more like a Socialist Oligarchy with a dash of Fascist Dictatorship and a pinch of Nepotism for a while now. But you shouldn't listen to me, I'm just a crazed paranoid right-wing fringe veteran, the talking heads in the magic picture box said so.

[Fitz]

Since when does the Federal government have the right to corner the market on materiel "just in case?"  They are saving costs by drying up the private market?  The Feds are not supposed to be first in line for everything in a Republic.

Again, that's not how these contracts work. They're basically options. DHS did not, nor will it any time soon, actually take possession of the ammo, nor has the contract affected production for commercial sale.

[MechAg94]

Again, that's not how these contracts work. They're basically options. DHS did not, nor will it any time soon, actually take possession of the ammo, nor has the contract affected production for commercial sale.

If they did stockpile that much ammo and civilian sales were actually curtailed a bit, I can also see a lot of that ammo diappearing from the warehouse.

[RevDisk]

Just can't explain the details of federal procurement regulations to some folks, I suppose.

[TechMan]

Just can't explain the details of federal procurement regulations to some folks, I suppose.

It works the same way at the state and local level.  What you have described is reasonable, I guess some people have their  to tight.

[seeker_two]

From what I've been finding out from "big ammo" and how they run things at places like Lake City, it won't affect things that much. It might even help drop the cost of US made .40 a bit, or if not that, at least up the .40 supply some. From what I've been told, it would take WWIII to make them actually yank the dies of other calibers off of the machines to make some other caliber. Or actually order the dies, or make them or whatever in the first place.

Why does Fate keep trying to make me buy a  .40 cal?......