Author Topic: Electric motorcycles: when will they become practical?  (Read 4716 times)

MillCreek

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Electric motorcycles: when will they become practical?
« on: June 20, 2014, 10:30:33 AM »
The news of Harley coming out with an electric motorcycle has gotten a fair amount of media attention.  Are there major improvements in battery technology out there on the horizon such that we might see a basic electric motorcycle with a 250 mile range for under $ 10,000 within the next several years?  I have been reading up on the Zero DS, and it currently has a 120 mile range.
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Ben

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Re: Electric motorcycles: when will they become practical?
« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2014, 10:45:06 AM »
I'm not a motorcycle rider, but I think it will be directly tied to electric car development, at least outside of normal work, shopping, etc. commuting range.

When you're driving around town, it's no big deal on range because you just come home and plug it in at your house. I have a friend who recently bought a Leaf, and he has taken it on some longer trips, but said it has been somewhat of a hassle regarding charging. He ends up having to plan his route around Nissan dealerships where he stops to plug it in for free charging, and he of course has to wait around till he's charged up. So I'm thinking it's sort of a chicken and egg thing. You'll see more when there are more, and more convenient, charging stations available. Of course you won't see more charging stations until there are enough electric vehicles on the road to make investing in charging stations viable.
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MillCreek

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Re: Electric motorcycles: when will they become practical?
« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2014, 10:52:12 AM »
I see a lot of charging stations popping up in the Seattle area, and I continue to be amazed by one thing: (as far as I know) there is not a single uniform charging plug or cable for all electric vehicles. There should be something similar to the standard for a gas pump nozzle: the physical object fits into all cars.  The electric vehicle may have different on-board electronics/tranformers, but you should be able to use the same plug or cable at all charging stations.  I would think this is a barrier to widespread use.

Do let me know if I am wrong, and there is indeed a common standard for this.
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onions!

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Re: Electric motorcycles: when will they become practical?
« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2014, 10:53:32 AM »
I confess.I don't care about the technology behind the batteries.

I'm really looking forward to hopping on a quiet bike and enjoying a nice long summers evening ride.A quiet one.

One thing I haven't seen mentioned anywhere has to do with tires.Tires make a heck of a noise.I live about a mile from US131 and there is a constant whoooosh from the donuts.I have a neighbor with a Prius.Quiet car-except for the tires.I hope that tire material formulas change to offer a quieter ride.
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Re: Electric motorcycles: when will they become practical?
« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2014, 11:12:32 AM »
I'm really looking forward to hopping on a quiet bike and enjoying a nice long summers evening ride.A quiet one.

I tend to think most people would be served just fine by a 100mi range; a couple hours of pleasure riding, or an easy commute without having to charge at work would take care of the vast majority of the transit needs.  The problem is then having another vehicle (with insurance, registration etc.) for the trips that go farther.  Offer a sensible solution (insure the driver instead of the vehicle, since one driver can only drive one at any given time anyway, and move the registration tax to the DL as well) and keep the prices reasonable and I think you'd see stuff like this take off a lot more.

MillCreek

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Re: Electric motorcycles: when will they become practical?
« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2014, 11:24:39 AM »
From what I read, the range really goes down once you hit freeway speeds.  The 100 mile range may be for driving around town at surface-street speeds, but I wonder what it would drop to on the freeway.  For me, my office is a 16 mile round trip from my home on surface streets, so the electric bike would be perfect for that.  But if I have to go visit one of my outlying clinics, that is a 60 mile round trip from the office and longer from home, most of it on the freeway.  Could I make it there and back, or would I have to cool my heels for several hours charging from a 110 volt wall socket?
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onions!

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Re: Electric motorcycles: when will they become practical?
« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2014, 11:34:46 AM »
From what I read, the range really goes down once you hit freeway speeds.  The 100 mile range may be for driving around town at surface-street speeds, but I wonder what it would drop to on the freeway.  For me, my office is a 16 mile round trip from my home on surface streets, so the electric bike would be perfect for that.  But if I have to go visit one of my outlying clinics, that is a 60 mile round trip from the office and longer from home, most of it on the freeway.  Could I make it there and back, or would I have to cool my heels for several hours charging from a 110 volt wall socket?

My first thought,the smart aleck one, was to tow a little trailer with a (plugged in)gas generator. :laugh:

A better one though might be to tow a small trailer that contains a battery(ies) and the required cables for extended range.Depending on how big they are I could also see saddlebags utilized as battery carriers.A few options that aren't that inconvenient that could extend the range when required and could help the tech get over the hump?
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Ben

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Re: Electric motorcycles: when will they become practical?
« Reply #7 on: June 20, 2014, 11:35:13 AM »
Could I make it there and back, or would I have to cool my heels for several hours charging from a 110 volt wall socket?

There are some pretty fast charge stations, like the one below from AeroVironment (think drones) being developed and deployed. Ten minute charge time.

http://evsolutions.avinc.com/products/public_charging/public_charging_b
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MillCreek

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Re: Electric motorcycles: when will they become practical?
« Reply #8 on: June 20, 2014, 11:46:28 AM »
^^^ So can you plug that into a Volt, a Prius, a Leaf and a C-Max?  Or do charging stations like that only fit one or two types of vehicles, I wonder.
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onions!

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Re: Electric motorcycles: when will they become practical?
« Reply #9 on: June 20, 2014, 12:16:41 PM »
"Honey,we need to do laundry,the powers out,and it's hot in here.Whatever shall we do?"

"Hmmm."..."I know,let's plug the washing machine into the motorcycle!And the A/C into the car!"

Yeah!Problem solved!

Until you need to go somewhere.
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Re: Electric motorcycles: when will they become practical?
« Reply #10 on: June 20, 2014, 12:20:57 PM »
^^^ So can you plug that into a Volt, a Prius, a Leaf and a C-Max?  Or do charging stations like that only fit one or two types of vehicles, I wonder.

I wonder at the toll such rapid charging would take on the batteries?  

FTR, when I charge the lipos for my RC aircraft, I place the lipo inside a fireproof bag and that bag inside an ammo can with the lid popped.  Leads come out and go to charger.  Preferably, all done in the garage on the concrete floor.  If not in the garage, on a big slab of stoneware in the kitchen.  I have seriously considered buying a small smoke detector to place on top the whole mess.
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Re: Electric motorcycles: when will they become practical?
« Reply #11 on: June 20, 2014, 12:33:52 PM »
I wonder at the toll such rapid charging would take on the batteries?  

At the moment, I believe it does shorten the battery life.
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Re: Electric motorcycles: when will they become practical?
« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2014, 02:01:18 PM »
If you only have to do 37.73 miles, you can go fast and have fun.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GceET7MAwww

A little expensive though.


bob

MillCreek

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Re: Electric motorcycles: when will they become practical?
« Reply #13 on: June 20, 2014, 02:29:00 PM »
I wonder at the toll such rapid charging would take on the batteries?  

FTR, when I charge the lipos for my RC aircraft, I place the lipo inside a fireproof bag and that bag inside an ammo can with the lid popped.  Leads come out and go to charger.  Preferably, all done in the garage on the concrete floor.  If not in the garage, on a big slab of stoneware in the kitchen.  I have seriously considered buying a small smoke detector to place on top the whole mess.

Do you think I should be doing something similar for the LiPo batteries for my new Ryobi 18 volt cordless tool set?  I have just been charging them on the workbench out in the garage.
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birdman

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Re: Electric motorcycles: when will they become practical?
« Reply #14 on: June 20, 2014, 04:35:31 PM »
The news of Harley coming out with an electric motorcycle has gotten a fair amount of media attention.  Are there major improvements in battery technology out there on the horizon such that we might see a basic electric motorcycle with a 250 mile range for under $ 10,000 within the next several years?  I have been reading up on the Zero DS, and it currently has a 120 mile range.

That cost/range target is tough, but everything else?

How about now?  A Mission R gets 105-140 miles on a charge, charges in 30 min direct DC, is 160hp, does 140-150mph, and costs 33-43k.

A 250 mile range bike is -hard-.  Motor cycles have comparatively high drag/mass than a car, so packaging sufficient battery is hard. 
A typical sportbike needs about 10-15kW to do 60mph (compared to about 20kW for a low drag car) meanings go 250 miles, you would need a 40-60kWh battery.  Considering that size battery would weight about 500-800lbs minimum, you start getting diminishing returns.

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Re: Electric motorcycles: when will they become practical?
« Reply #15 on: June 20, 2014, 05:10:37 PM »
I am somewhat amazed that nobody else has yet addressed the absense-of-noise issue.

A major and growing complaint about electric cars, especially the in-town runabouts, is that folks do not hear them coming.  Yes, they should stop before entering the crosswalk and look both way, but we all know most folks depend more on hearing an oncoming vehicle than they do on actually seeing it.

Add to that the frequently-posited argument of motorcyclists that they need to have loud exhaust systems so that cagers with the windows up and the ridio at full blast will still be able to become aware the bike is there.

And HD will be bringing another stealth-quiet bike onto the streets/highways.  I wonder if they will be supplying cards that will rub against the spokes, or will they sell them only as accessories?  (Oh, did I forget that spokes on motorcycle wheels is pretty much a thing of my childhood?  :facepalm: )

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Re: Electric motorcycles: when will they become practical?
« Reply #16 on: June 20, 2014, 05:16:45 PM »
Do you think I should be doing something similar for the LiPo batteries for my new Ryobi 18 volt cordless tool set?  I have just been charging them on the workbench out in the garage.

The charge controller should ideally be pretty lawyer proof. And the cell phones in everyone's pockets right next to their sensitive junk are almost all LiPo's these days too. And the battery in a quality commercial product should have a thermistor in the circuit somewhere as an additional line of defense. So in actual practice they don't go bad to the point of swelling or fire all that often. A quality charge controller will monitor resistance, impedance, temperature, and voltage and shut off if any of them are wonky.

However rare, accidents do happen, and putting LiPo's somewhere completely safe away from anything flammable won't hurt.  [tinfoil]

The RC stuff is often much more basic, and don't have as many protections because the drain is so high they don't last as long as integrated consumer devices which are run much more conservatively, the LiPo's are getting hot anyway because they're run so hard for high RPM DC motors in propellers, quadcopters etc.



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Re: Electric motorcycles: when will they become practical?
« Reply #17 on: June 20, 2014, 05:17:23 PM »
Add to that the frequently-posited argument of motorcyclists that they need to have loud exhaust systems so that cagers with the windows up and the ridio at full blast will still be able to become aware the bike is there.

One of these days, I'd like to see some stats on actual "didn't see him" wrecks specifying whether the bike in question had a normal exhaust or straight pipes.  Put a decent horn on the damn thing and let the rest of your neighborhood sleep.

Firethorn

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Re: Electric motorcycles: when will they become practical?
« Reply #18 on: June 20, 2014, 06:07:04 PM »
I see a lot of charging stations popping up in the Seattle area, and I continue to be amazed by one thing: (as far as I know) there is not a single uniform charging plug or cable for all electric vehicles.

There's also not a single standard plug for high power appliances either.  Your dryer takes a different plug than your range, and there's a couple choices for each, water heaters are typically hard wired, etc...

There are actually only 3 major connectors
Tesla - Propitiatory/Open sourced - While it was developed by Tesla only, they recently released all the specifications and requirements; anybody can built a tesla type charging station now.  Capable of 120kW, with plans to increase to 160kW, they're currently the 'king' in fast charging.  Also has the 'nicest' connector at the moment.
SAE J1772 - US & European manufacturers.  19kW at the moment, a 90kW standard is 'coming soon'.
CHAdeMO - Japanese standard; 62.5kW max

Tesla also gives it's owners a J1772 adapter cable along with a pile of other cables ranging from standard outlet 15A110V all the way to 50A240V RV connections.  So if a Tesla owner visits you overnight and can reach your dryer outlet, they can use it.  A maximum of 12 hours later and they have a full charge.  They charge a hefty fee for a CHAdeMO cord though, so I wonder what's up with that.

Quote
There should be something similar to the standard for a gas pump nozzle: the physical object fits into all cars.  The electric vehicle may have different on-board electronics/tranformers, but you should be able to use the same plug or cable at all charging stations.  I would think this is a barrier to widespread use.

Pretty much all of them have the capability to use 110V outlets, but things get interesting because over a certain amperage it's better to have the transformer outside of the car, so that's where the special connectors come in because you're doing something like feeding 400V@80A DC over the wires.

that is a 60 mile round trip from the office and longer from home, most of it on the freeway.  Could I make it there and back, or would I have to cool my heels for several hours charging from a 110 volt wall socket?

From what I understand you'd be best off spending at least a couple hours there with it plugged in.  One benefit of an electric motorcycle is that the battery is so much smaller that charging from a 110V socket is practical.  I don't think any of them are even capable of using standard EV chargers.

^^^ So can you plug that into a Volt, a Prius, a Leaf and a C-Max?  Or do charging stations like that only fit one or two types of vehicles, I wonder.

It's a CHAdeMO charger, thus:
Volt No(J1772)
Prius plug-in J1772?
Leaf Yes(but modern ones also have J1772)
C-Max plug-in hybrid : J1772

On the other hand, you're covered if you installed a J1772 charger instead.  Still, 3 of the 4 are hybrids and not EVs, so shouldn't even really NEED a fast-charger.  Or be capable of benefiting all that much, most of these have a battery around 6 kWh, so from empty to full is only 5 hours on a bottom barrel socket. 
« Last Edit: June 20, 2014, 06:11:20 PM by Firethorn »

tokugawa

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Re: Electric motorcycles: when will they become practical?
« Reply #19 on: June 20, 2014, 06:41:31 PM »
They need to standardize the battery types - so when one runs low you stop in at the "fuel" station and merely pop out the old one and pop in the charged pack.

 Anybody that thinks average Americans are going to sit around twiddling for an hour or more to charge up their car is nuts. People get pissed off when their dang computer is 2 seconds slow to load a page.......

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Re: Electric motorcycles: when will they become practical?
« Reply #20 on: June 20, 2014, 07:40:52 PM »
Quote
Quote from: vaskidmark on Today at 01:10:37 PM
Add to that the frequently-posited argument of motorcyclists that they need to have loud exhaust systems so that cagers with the windows up and the ridio at full blast will still be able to become aware the bike is there
.

One of these days, I'd like to see some stats on actual "didn't see him" wrecks specifying whether the bike in question had a normal exhaust or straight pipes.  Put a decent horn on the damn thing and let the rest of your neighborhood sleep.

I have never understood the I need the noise so they see me thinking. I have been riding on the street since I was 12 years old, and I am nearly old enough to draw social security at this point.

First of all, the noise is essentially being directed behind you, how does that help in the most common of MC vs 4 wheel accidents, the left turn in front of bike because "I didn't see him"?

Secondly, noise is dependent on engine output, if someone pulls out in front of you, I really don't think you will give it gas to increase noise, will you? I hope you are braking and avoiding as best you can.

My strategy is wear bright colors, run with bright beams on all the time and pay attention to every one who is trying to kill me. I also installed a Stebel Nautilus horn, nearly 130dB of noise. This winter will be the installation of a strip of forward facing LEDs on each fork, if I can figure it out, they will be set up to strobe fairly fast. I an also going to add a strip of red LEDs to the back of my panniers.

I really want to make it to Social Security, after all, I want to be a triple dipper!!!!  =D


OK, now back to the inefficiency of electric vehicles for the masses due to poor battery technology.   ;)

bob   

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Re: Electric motorcycles: when will they become practical?
« Reply #21 on: June 20, 2014, 07:50:36 PM »
Do you think I should be doing something similar for the LiPo batteries for my new Ryobi 18 volt cordless tool set?  I have just been charging them on the workbench out in the garage.

Mostly what AJD wrote.  If you packaged the hobby lipos in thick plastic and produced 100,000 of them you'd probably get quality control similar to what we see in tool batts.

OTOH, plenty of handy RC hobbyists have replaced their tool batteries with hobby lipos and reported zip <snaps fingers> for management circuitry in the batts (which is where the heat will accumulate).  I suspect a tiny but pretty sensitive fuse/thermistor that fails pretty easy so that instead of discharging all the stored energy PDQ, the thermistor fails and you got yourself a dead tool batt.  But since smarter guys than I dissected the old tool batts and found zip, I am not so sanguine.

Here is a deliberate closed circuit lipo fire.  Looks like 4 cells or ~14V.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdfBd92nEcQ
That was from a whipped/worn out lipo.

Utah Flyers put out some good skinny on lipos:
http://utahflyers.org/video-mainmenu-28/16-lipo-safety/21-lipo-fires-1
Haven't seen these and learned more just reading and watching, despite having read and watching other videos years back.  UFO was more deliberate and sought to find ways to ameliorate a lipo fire.  Matter of fact, I am changing my charging regimen to a cinderblock bunker with a ziplock bag full of sand as a lid (simple, elegant).  In the garage.

As for the tool batts:
1. Charge on non-flammable surface and use a cover that won't pop off.  You still might get noxious smoke in the house, but less likely you'll lose the house.
2. Charge when you are nearby to keep an eye on them.
3. Take them off the charger when done.
4. Store in ammo can with vent hole.

I might be getting chicken as I get older, but things like gas cans and high-capacity batteries give me more worry than in years past.  My gas cans are now in the shed, not the garage.



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roo_ster

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Firethorn

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Re: Electric motorcycles: when will they become practical?
« Reply #22 on: June 20, 2014, 09:49:20 PM »
They need to standardize the battery types - so when one runs low you stop in at the "fuel" station and merely pop out the old one and pop in the charged pack.

 Anybody that thinks average Americans are going to sit around twiddling for an hour or more to charge up their car is nuts. People get pissed off when their dang computer is 2 seconds slow to load a page.......

A Tesla supercharger can give you 80% charge in 20 minutes.

As for a standardized battery pack, again Tesla seems to be doing this in that the X uses the same fittings as the S.  They even have fast swap capability, but at over a thousand pounds for the battery pack you're looking at a system that's built like what they use to load bombs onto planes.

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Re: Electric motorcycles: when will they become practical?
« Reply #23 on: June 20, 2014, 09:56:59 PM »
I am somewhat amazed that nobody else has yet addressed the absense-of-noise issue.

A major and growing complaint about electric cars, especially the in-town runabouts, is that folks do not hear them coming.  Yes, they should stop before entering the crosswalk and look both way, but we all know most folks depend more on hearing an oncoming vehicle than they do on actually seeing it.

Add to that the frequently-posited argument of motorcyclists that they need to have loud exhaust systems so that cagers with the windows up and the ridio at full blast will still be able to become aware the bike is there.

And HD will be bringing another stealth-quiet bike onto the streets/highways.  I wonder if they will be supplying cards that will rub against the spokes, or will they sell them only as accessories?  (Oh, did I forget that spokes on motorcycle wheels is pretty much a thing of my childhood?  :facepalm: )

stay safe.

Check the vid. It aint silent. Its not loud like a twin, but they did something to make it noisy.


I like the idea of electric bikes. Once they're economicaly viable, an electric dual sport is in my future
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BobR

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Re: Electric motorcycles: when will they become practical?
« Reply #24 on: June 20, 2014, 10:22:40 PM »
Quote
Its not loud like a twin, but they did something to make it noisy.

Playing cards in the spokes???   =D

bob