Author Topic: Electric motorcycles: when will they become practical?  (Read 4718 times)

Fitz

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Fitz

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Re: Electric motorcycles: when will they become practical?
« Reply #26 on: June 20, 2014, 10:34:41 PM »
im dying laughing at the dubbed in stuff on the second vid. I cant find the original. lol

EDIT: found it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7u9DTfE14M
Fitz

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White Horseradish

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Re: Electric motorcycles: when will they become practical?
« Reply #27 on: June 21, 2014, 06:21:05 PM »
All-electric vehicles will become something other than early adopter and hobbyist toys when the convenience matches the IC engine. This means charging times in minutes rather than hours.

I look at it this way:

Should I forget to get gas in my FJ, I can make a 5-minute stop on the way to work and still be on time.
Should I forget to plug in a Zero, I'm looking at taking a half-day off so that I can charge the thing.

Also, when I ran out of gas on the road, I walked to a station, got a bottle of gas, walked back, and was going again in a minute. An electric vehicle in this situation is at least a tow, at most an expensive battery replacement.

We need to radically improve either how we store energy, or how we convert it. Science ought to get it's stuff together and have a major breakthrough. Weren't we supposed to have a Mr. Fusion by now?

As far as the cost, electricity to charge them is only cheaper than gas until there is a large enough number of EVs for the gasoline tax revenue to start dropping.



WRT to noise and motorcycles, from where I sit, "loud pipes save lives" is 100% BS. From the rider perspective, I've been damn near run off the road multiple times on a bike that had shorty mufflers burnt out so as to be essentially straight pipes. From the driver perspective, sure, I can hear your oversized fart machine, but the sound is not directional, it reflects and seems to be coming from freaking everywhere, and if you insist on riding in the blind spot of my truck, I still have no idea where you are. Not being a dumbass and paying attention goes a far longer way towards not being run over than making noise.
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Hutch

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Re: Electric motorcycles: when will they become practical?
« Reply #28 on: June 21, 2014, 10:19:21 PM »
WRT to noise and motorcycles, from where I sit, "loud pipes save lives" is 100% BS. From the rider perspective, I've been damn near run off the road multiple times on a bike that had shorty mufflers burnt out so as to be essentially straight pipes. From the driver perspective, sure, I can hear your oversized fart machine, but the sound is not directional, it reflects and seems to be coming from freaking everywhere, and if you insist on riding in the blind spot of my truck, I still have no idea where you are. Not being a dumbass and paying attention goes a far longer way towards not being run over than making noise.
I'm a rider, and I hate Hate HATE unmuffled v-twin racket with the fire of a thousand blue-white suns.  I just do.  It's way beyond logical.
"My limited experience does not permit me to appreciate the unquestionable wisdom of your decision"

Seems like every day, I'm forced to add to the list of people who can just kiss my hairy ass.

birdman

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Re: Electric motorcycles: when will they become practical?
« Reply #29 on: June 21, 2014, 11:03:44 PM »
I'm a rider, and I hate Hate HATE unmuffled v-twin racket with the fire of a thousand blue-white suns.  I just do.  It's way beyond logical.

So you don't like the sound of a Ducati?  There is a difference between a low-rev 45deg twin and a high rev 90deg twin. 

White Horseradish

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Re: Electric motorcycles: when will they become practical?
« Reply #30 on: June 22, 2014, 01:02:20 AM »
So you don't like the sound of a Ducati?  There is a difference between a low-rev 45deg twin and a high rev 90deg twin. 
oddly, just about every Ducati rider I've ever met has been a *expletive deleted*bag... I have no idea why those bikes attract those people...
Political tags - such as royalist, communist, democrat, populist, fascist, liberal, conservative, and so forth - are never basic criteria. The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire.

Robert A Heinlein

Firethorn

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Re: Electric motorcycles: when will they become practical?
« Reply #31 on: June 22, 2014, 01:39:49 AM »
We need to radically improve either how we store energy, or how we convert it. Science ought to get it's stuff together and have a major breakthrough. Weren't we supposed to have a Mr. Fusion by now?

Switching to electric is a massive increase in conversion efficiency, from something like 20% to around 90%.  But the current battery systems are limited, despite massive research. 

As for range, one option is to go with an aluminum-air battery, but it's a non-rechargable primary cell.  But at 1300 Wh/kg(and a lot higher theoretically), compared to LiIon's 100-265 Wh/kg, it can provide range enough for anyone.

Quote
As far as the cost, electricity to charge them is only cheaper than gas until there is a large enough number of EVs for the gasoline tax revenue to start dropping.

road tax isn't that high.  It'll kill a good chunk of the difference though.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2014, 02:37:53 PM by Firethorn »

birdman

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Re: Electric motorcycles: when will they become practical?
« Reply #32 on: June 22, 2014, 08:27:58 AM »
Switching to electric is a massive increase in conversion efficiency, from something like 20% to around 90%.  But the current battery systems are limited, despite massive research.  

As far as the cost, electricity to charge them is only cheaper than gas until there is a large enough number of EVs for the gasoline tax revenue to start dropping.

One option is to go with an aluminum-air battery, but it's a non-rechargable primary cell.  But at 1300 Wh/kg(and a lot higher theoretically), compared to LiIon's 100-265 Wh/kg, it can provide range enough for anyone.

Actually conversion efficiency is closer to 70%
Round trip efficiency on a battery is 80-90% (depending, high performance lithium batterie far cars are actually closer to the 80% number due to internal resistance losses on peak discharge, also the faster you discharge or charge the lower the efficiency)
A motor is 90-95% or so

Also, that electricity came from somewhere, so let's say its the highest thermal efficiency type of power plant, a ICCGT (integrated combined cycle gas turbine), at about 45-50%

Total cycle is then about 30-35%
High performance gasoline engine is about 25%

So an electric is at most about 1.2-1.4x as efficient whole cycle as a gas engine, and about the same as a diesel.

The issue with aluminum/air is discharge rate, as surface effects with air cells tend to cause limitations in power performance

Also, on the cost issue, its not necessarily cheaper, its actually either a cost shift (increased vehicle cost vs identical specs at lower recurring cost) or due to apples and oranges--EVs tend to be more efficient in their utilization of energy (better aero, regenerative braking, lower parasitic loads), and a comparison of a hybrid vehicle (especially a diesel hybrid) with identical output specs and payload specs actually shows the hybrid being roughly the same in terms of total cycle efficiency as a pure EV, and with a lower carbon footprint, as diesel or gasoline is lower carbon per unit energy than the average electrical power source (50% coal, 30% NG, 20% nuclear and renewables)

A quote I used before:
If all I wanted was a 400+hp sedan, and all I cared about was carbon footprint, I wouldn't get a Tesla, I'd get a CTS-V, M5, or Merecedes.

oddly, just about every Ducati rider I've ever met has been a *expletive deleted*... I have no idea why those bikes attract those people...

Gee...didn't know you felt that way about me! (I've owned 3) :)
« Last Edit: June 22, 2014, 08:36:24 AM by birdman »

White Horseradish

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Re: Electric motorcycles: when will they become practical?
« Reply #33 on: June 22, 2014, 09:25:59 AM »
Gee...didn't know you felt that way about me! (I've owned 3) :)
Well, I haven't met you in person... ;)

Political tags - such as royalist, communist, democrat, populist, fascist, liberal, conservative, and so forth - are never basic criteria. The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire.

Robert A Heinlein

Hutch

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Re: Electric motorcycles: when will they become practical?
« Reply #34 on: June 22, 2014, 12:37:26 PM »
So you don't like the sound of a Ducati?  There is a difference between a low-rev 45deg twin and a high rev 90deg twin. 
Technically, my V-Strom is a v-twin.  It has no comparable audible signature.  As you probably know, it's the unmuffled Harley's and Wannabees that cause me such distress.
"My limited experience does not permit me to appreciate the unquestionable wisdom of your decision"

Seems like every day, I'm forced to add to the list of people who can just kiss my hairy ass.

Fitz

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Re: Electric motorcycles: when will they become practical?
« Reply #35 on: June 22, 2014, 01:56:32 PM »
Fitz

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I have reached a conclusion regarding every member of this forum.
I no longer respect any of you. I hope the following offends you as much as this thread has offended me:
You are all awful people. I mean this *expletive deleted*ing seriously.

-MicroBalrog

MillCreek

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Re: Electric motorcycles: when will they become practical?
« Reply #36 on: June 22, 2014, 02:15:51 PM »
My Harley-riding friends like to say that my V-Strom sounds like 'an angry sewing machine'.
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Fitz

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Re: Electric motorcycles: when will they become practical?
« Reply #37 on: June 22, 2014, 02:32:26 PM »
It opens up some with an aftermarket pipe :-d
Fitz

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You are all awful people. I mean this *expletive deleted*ing seriously.

-MicroBalrog

Firethorn

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Re: Electric motorcycles: when will they become practical?
« Reply #38 on: June 22, 2014, 02:36:46 PM »
My Harley-riding friends like to say that my V-Strom sounds like 'an angry sewing machine'.

Heh.  Having seen sewing machines, I certainly wouldn't want to be around an angry one.  It could stab me how many times per second?

Actually conversion efficiency is closer to 70%

By the time you add up all the extraction, shipping, refining, and more shipping costs there's actually lower average carbon footprint for a Tesla being powered by pure coal.  Less ancillary pollution as well.


BobR

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Re: Electric motorcycles: when will they become practical?
« Reply #39 on: June 22, 2014, 02:58:21 PM »
Quote
My Harley-riding friends like to say that my V-Strom sounds like 'an angry sewing machine'.

Does that mean the early VWs were content sewing machines?   ;)


bob

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Re: Electric motorcycles: when will they become practical?
« Reply #40 on: June 22, 2014, 08:40:19 PM »
I'd like to see a hybrid with shore power out connection; I live alone, so when I'm there, the car is there.  Basically, assuming it can automatically fire up its gas engine when the battery is low, it would become a small, relatively quiet generator and battery backup system.  Except for summer, my electric usage is at most five CFLs, a ceiling fan, a couple of small chargers, (shaver and phone) some small powered speakers, a laptop and the refrigerator.  The fridge will easily hold safe temps 12-24 hours when the doors are kept shut, and nothing else needs to be on unless I'm there.  I can't imagine the fuel cost of that being more than the electric bill with its extra charges for <1000kWh/mo, with the advantage that it would all be completely off when I'm gone.
Depending on the final numbers, the brief periods of AC needed in summer might still not sour the idea completely.  The advantage of being able to rig up a tent, cabin or small camper with the same type of setup makes it even more attractive for weekends at the lake or hunting camps.

Firethorn

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Re: Electric motorcycles: when will they become practical?
« Reply #41 on: June 22, 2014, 09:35:49 PM »
I'd like to see a hybrid with shore power out connection;

I think the hybrid F-150 had that feature, don't know if it reached production.

Northwoods

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Re: Electric motorcycles: when will they become practical?
« Reply #42 on: June 22, 2014, 09:41:52 PM »
Are there major improvements in battery technology out there on the horizon such that we might see a basic electric motorcycle with a 250 mile range for under $ 10,000 within the next several years?  

No.  Batteries do not follow Moore's Law.  They are constrained by the limits of chemistry.  

Back in the days of Edison batteries had charge densities of around 25W-hrs/kg.  Today the best commercially available batteries are around 150W-hrs/kg.  Some might be starting to push 200.  Even if you take the battery pimp's claim of 400W-hrs/kg you're only talking about a 16x improvement in over 125 years of, at times, massive R&D efforts (and realistically more like 7-8x).  Computers, following Moore's law saw that level of improvement (16x) every 6 years.

There are incremental improvements being made, but the sea change that is necessary is simply not on the horizon.

If we want electric vehicles to take over from ICE vehicles it will require something other than batteries to do so.  Maybe fuel cells.  Maybe super-capacitors.  Maybe some new generation of batteries.  But as they stand batteries are simply not cut out for the tasks that most people want from their cars.  As a niche they might be quite successful, but not as a widespread means of personal transportation.
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birdman

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Re: Electric motorcycles: when will they become practical?
« Reply #43 on: June 22, 2014, 10:22:11 PM »
I can see fuel cells making the difference, but that's about it, and then only methanol ones, or integrated reformer ones.  Hydrogen is simply not dense enough as a transport fuel.

KD5NRH

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Re: Electric motorcycles: when will they become practical?
« Reply #44 on: June 22, 2014, 11:25:21 PM »
But as they stand batteries are simply not cut out for the tasks that most people want from their cars.  As a niche they might be quite successful, but not as a widespread means of personal transportation.

Proper, roadworthy EVs will do pretty much everything that most people want from their daily commuter as it is: 50-75 mile range, (the average commute is 32mi round trip - no raw data handy to see if that includes train and other park-and-ride commutes) ability to quickly achieve 70mph for any freeway segments, (my old commute was 9 miles, with 7 of that on US75 - avoiding 75 would have added 4-5 miles and about 20 minutes, which eats power with constant loads like lights and AC) and normal car features like air conditioning.

The two main drawbacks to having an EV are pretty much the drawbacks of having multiple vehicles; parking and the extra cost to register and insure two cars when you're still only using the roads as much as you would be with one.  Unless you literally never go anywhere beyond your commute, (and never have long power outages in the evening that would keep you from getting a full charge) you're going to need a second car to handle longer trips, so you're stuck with the multiple car expenses which eliminate the advantage of having the EV.

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Re: Electric motorcycles: when will they become practical?
« Reply #45 on: June 23, 2014, 12:24:04 AM »
Interesting and relevant:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwFgDGEOmGo

Simplistic manufacturing process and initial power densities approaching current lithium.
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Hutch

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Re: Electric motorcycles: when will they become practical?
« Reply #46 on: June 23, 2014, 06:33:11 PM »
My Harley-riding friends like to say that my V-Strom sounds like 'an angry sewing machine'.
If they ride unmuffled Harleys, they should appreciate the fact that they can still hear a sewing machine.  That won't last long...
"My limited experience does not permit me to appreciate the unquestionable wisdom of your decision"

Seems like every day, I'm forced to add to the list of people who can just kiss my hairy ass.

onions!

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Re: Electric motorcycles: when will they become practical?
« Reply #47 on: June 23, 2014, 06:40:59 PM »
I think the hybrid F-150 had that feature, don't know if it reached production.
GM had that with their hybrid trucks and utilities.Sadly,they were dropped when they axed so many other things in 2009.
jeff w

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