Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: T.O.M. on April 14, 2011, 01:30:23 PM
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I recently started a thread over at THR in the handgun section. Long story short, I asked members which gun of a list of three guns I already own - Glock 19, Glock 21, Smith 686 - they would recommend I choose to take on a five day backpacking trip in the Daniel Boone National Forest. I described the purpose of the handgun as being like the first-aid kit I carry...don't want to use it, but don't want to need it and not have it. I mentioned I just wanted one for SHTF situations. My reason for the debate was in my own mind, deciding if a revolver (no mags needed, just ammo) or an autoloader made more sense.
Some sample responses I got? "Taurus Public Defender aka the Judge in .410. Perfect for snakes and such without worry of 'zinging' rounds out."
"Buy a good serios caliber autoloader(not a 22) and keep a couple spare mags on hand, and buy one of thoose nagant revolvers as a back up, i dont think it is even possible to make a nagant revolver fail to fire."
"22 revolver. Take your pick of action, barrel length, etc."
Other than a few posts with some good advice, the rest was a heated debate about the durability of autos vs. revolvers, with one poster stating that you have to clean an auto several times a day in a dirty environment to keep it functioning.
Meanwhile, I'll just keep it in mind whenever I have a gun question...come here first.
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I recently started a thread over at THR in the handgun section. Long story short, I asked members which gun of a list of three guns I already own - Glock 19, Glock 21, Smith 686 - they would recommend I choose to take on a five day backpacking trip in the Daniel Boone National Forest. I described the purpose of the handgun as being like the first-aid kit I carry...don't want to use it, but don't want to need it and not have it. I mentioned I just wanted one for SHTF situations. My reason for the debate was in my own mind, deciding if a revolver (no mags needed, just ammo) or an autoloader made more sense.
Some sample responses I got? "Taurus Public Defender aka the Judge in .410. Perfect for snakes and such without worry of 'zinging' rounds out."
"Buy a good serios caliber autoloader(not a 22) and keep a couple spare mags on hand, and buy one of thoose nagant revolvers as a back up, i dont think it is even possible to make a nagant revolver fail to fire."
"22 revolver. Take your pick of action, barrel length, etc."
Other than a few posts with some good advice, the rest was a heated debate about the durability of autos vs. revolvers, with one poster stating that you have to clean an auto several times a day in a dirty environment to keep it functioning.
Meanwhile, I'll just keep it in mind whenever I have a gun question...come here first.
So, you bought the Judge with a Nagant back-up, right?
Cause that's my recommendation.
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I'd prefer a BFG9000, although a ZF-1 would do in a pinch.
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Should've bought a double rifle in .470 NE, since a handgun is only for fighting you way back to the rifle you shouldn't've laid down in the first place. And you should carry 2 double rifles, since two is one and one is none. And you should file down the front sight anyway so it won't hurt so much when the bear shoves it up your prostate.
There. I think that's most of the default responses. :lol:
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The bear would just eat your BFG9000 and break your Judge over your head.
Your a guntard unless you carry an AR in .50Beowolf when your hiking.
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I don't think you would offend Oleg in any way. You posted that on THR.org, which is no longer associated with him. His side changed to Gun Rights Media.
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I'd probably just take the Glock 19 but I'm not familiar with the type of critters in that area. If it's black bear country I'd probably opt for the 686.
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I like the responses where the poster skims through and only reads every third or fourth word. Kind of like:
"So if I buy the Nagant what other rounds can I fire besides 410?"
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You should also wear bells on your clothing and carry pepper spray. After you disappear searchers well be able to tell whether you got ate by a grizzly or a black bear. Black bear scat smells like berries. Grizzly scat smells like pepper and jingles when you kick it around. :P
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Chris, which one do you shoot best? Does it have a holster that secures the gun well and are you willing to wear it all day long?
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I'll never understand those kind of answers, either. I see it on car forums, too.
Question: I'm thinking about buying my neighbor's 2007 Mustang for $14,000. Are the 2007's reliable?
Answer: get a 2011 Lamborghini if you want a really fast car.
Just don't buy any Crimson Trace lasers from me and expect a free gun. Moccasins, maybe. ;)
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So we buy the Moccasins and get a free gun? Awesome!
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Have you considered a pole-arm?
You can use it as a walking stick and a bear sticker, it will never run out of ammo, you can use as a shelter pole in extremis and if someone sees you coming down the trail with a halberd or a glaive or a guisarme, or glaive-guisarme, they will get the F out of your way.
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So we buy the Moccasins and get a free gun? Awesome!
Yeah, but the moccasins cost anywhere from 500 to 2000+ dollars.
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Have you considered a pole-arm?
You can use it as a walking stick and a bear sticker, it will never run out of ammo, you can use as a shelter pole in extremis and if someone sees you coming down the trail with a halberd or a glaive or a guisarme, or glaive-guisarme, they will get the F out of your way.
Bears suffer a -2 dexterity when confronted with a Bohemian Ear Spoon, after the first hit.
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Those are some expensive moccasins.
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Bears suffer a -2 dexterity when confronted with a Bohemian Ear Spoon, after the first hit.
Cool. Then you can use the Battle Cry of The Tick! SPOOOOONNN!!!
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The 686 loaded with hot 158gr+ loads.
And a pole axe.
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What's the best polearm for polecat?
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Because this is where you go for the serious answers
=D
I assume that you are fully competent with all three weapons.
I don't know where that park is, but i'm guessing black bear is the biggest animal out there. And they have cubs right now, which means you don't want to piss mama off.
But thats worse case and your best tactic is to scare her off rather then kill, so a big noise with a clear escape route for her and children is best.
I'd go with your lightest option. autoloaders, you want two loaded mags or revolver with a couple autoloaders, with one of your extra mags or autoloaders tucked back in your pack in a ziplock.
And thats my two cent.
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It's between the G21 and the 686. Of the two, I'd just go with whichever you shoot better. Both being equal, I'd say the 686, if only because as a revolver it's a bit more PC looking should you somehow have any public, or LE/Ranger interactions over it.
Black bear/Mountain Lion is the largest critter you might have to dispatch, and .45 ACP would be adequate at any range you're justified in shooting it.
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Should've bought a double rifle in .470 NE,
Make that a bolt-action double barrel rifle. http://www.fuchs-fine-guns.com/
OK, so much for the kidding . . .
As to which pistol, assuming you're competent with all three . . . two-legged problems will be addressed with any of them, though if you encounter a biker gang tending their marijuana plantation when you get back in them thar woods, the extra rounds of the G19 might be welcome.
For dealing with four-legged problems, either the G21 or 686 will do, loaded with heavy bullets at maximum velocity.
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Take off and nuke it from orbit with detcord, Zardoz style.
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As to which pistol, assuming you're competent with all three . . . two-legged problems will be addressed with any of them, though if you encounter a biker gang tending their marijuana plantation when you get back in them thar woods, the extra rounds of the G19 might be welcome.
For dealing with four-legged problems, either the G21 or 686 will do, loaded with heavy bullets at maximum velocity.
I would consider the G21 to be the "happy medium" with a spare magazine. 27 rounds of .45acp gives you lots of ability to resolve any 2-legged problem a typical solo human should be capable of resolving without secretsquirrelninja training, and .45acp can stop 4-legged predators.
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Might I suggest the G21G(guisarme) then? All that firepower plus a hook for pulling riders off their mounts.
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I'm still holding to the position that, whatever gun you take, you should get a Bond Arms .410 derringer for pocket carry.
1. .410 shotshells are more effective than any pistol shotshells.
2. It's a good reason to buy another gun...always a good thing. =D
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I don't know if he's still a member...but for a while one f***tard member (i.e., worse than Judge loving mouthbreathing idiots) of THR.org was talking about how he was going to take his AK Draco pistol, paint the muzzle orange like an airsoft gun (so that nobody would shoot him), and take it hiking with him (open carry) in a TN state park. (his ass did get arrested).
This is the f***tard in question: http://www.thehighroad.org/member.php?u=68661
This is his epic thread of fail: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=492845
The Judge is an utterly useless piece of *expletive deleted*it.
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You know that Glocks kaboom, right? I'd sell those, and buy a good tactical wheelbarrow to carry your kit.
And bring the Nagant.
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I don't know if he's still a member...but for a while one f***tard member (i.e., worse than Judge loving mouthbreathing idiots) of THR.org was talking about how he was going to take his AK Draco pistol, paint the muzzle orange like an airsoft gun (so that nobody would shoot him), and take it hiking with him (open carry) in a TN state park. (his ass did get arrested).
This is the f***tard in question: http://www.thehighroad.org/member.php?u=68661
This is his epic thread of fail: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=492845
The Judge is an utterly useless piece of *expletive deleted*.
I'd like to read about that...
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You know that Glocks kaboom, right?
They also shoot DEA agents in the foot.
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I'd like to read about that...
Did a lookback and maybe I misspoke, he did get "detained" for a while. Either way, he's still a dumbass...
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This about the only site I visit these days...period. It's a good place and I appreciate Oleg's efforts in starting it up and maintaining it.
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I don't know if he's still a member...but for a while one f***tard member (i.e., worse than Judge loving mouthbreathing idiots) of THR.org was talking about how he was going to take his AK Draco pistol
The Judge is an utterly useless piece of *expletive deleted*.
AK pistols for me, rank, if anything, below a Judge. A buddy of mine has one, likes it, and almost put a hole through his foot with one.
, paint the muzzle orange like an airsoft gun (so that nobody would shoot him), and take it hiking with him (open carry) in a TN state park. (his ass did get arrested).
This is the f***tard in question: http://www.thehighroad.org/member.php?u=68661
Way higher member number than me. <shrug>.
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I'm still holding to the position that, whatever gun you take, you should get a Bond Arms .410 derringer for pocket carry.
1. .410 shotshells are more effective than any pistol shotshells.
So is a 3 bore but it doesn't make pistol shotshells useless.
I shot a 4' rattler from 4' away with a 38special shotshell out of a 4" GP100. It nearly took his head off and immediately put an end to his life. Can't get much more effective than that.
Chris
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Ah, the experts! Not always right, NEVER in doubt!
Even here, any post is like a question to a politician, just a pause to catch the breath before moving on to the next (non sequitor) talking point. My "favorite" is the "everyone knows" response from the guy who has never even come close to the experience I seek to benefit from, but has read every issue of every gun rag and knows for sure.
My own learning experience came with these:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=366162
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=295989
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I recently started a thread over at THR in the handgun section. Long story short, I asked members which gun of a list of three guns I already own - Glock 19, Glock 21, Smith 686
Of those, if it were me, and limited to the specified choices, G21 first, Smith loaded with .357 second. Forget the G19 if you're worried about bear.
I recollect a longish thread, on THR or TFL, by a guy who wanted to carry his Glock 19 for bear defense. [popcorn] :facepalm:
I mentioned I just wanted one for SHTF situations. My reason for the debate was in my own mind, deciding if a revolver (no mags needed, just ammo) or an autoloader made more sense.
Some sample responses I got? "Taurus Public Defender aka the Judge in .410. Perfect for snakes and such without worry of 'zinging' rounds out."
"Buy a good serios caliber autoloader(not a 22) and keep a couple spare mags on hand, and buy one of thoose nagant revolvers as a back up, i dont think it is even possible to make a nagant revolver fail to fire."
"22 revolver. Take your pick of action, barrel length, etc."
Other than a few posts with some good advice, the rest was a heated debate about the durability of autos vs. revolvers, with one poster stating that you have to clean an auto several times a day in a dirty environment to keep it functioning.
Meanwhile, I'll just keep it in mind whenever I have a gun question...come here first.
It's the nature of the Interwebz. A vast sewer of misinformation, inhabited by trolls.
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So is a 3 bore but it doesn't make pistol shotshells useless.
I shot a 4' rattler from 4' away with a 38special shotshell out of a 4" GP100. It nearly took his head off and immediately put an end to his life. Can't get much more effective than that.
Chris
Yeah....but can you argue with #2?..... :P
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Yeah....but can you argue with #2?..... :P
no, but you can at least make it a useful gun. :P
Chris
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no, but you can at least make it a useful gun. :P
Chris
Where's the fun in that?......besides, if you wanted useful guns, you wouldn't have bought two Glocks......
.....are we gettin' that THR vibe, yet?..... =D
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.....are we gettin' that THR vibe, yet?..... =D
LOL!
Chris
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AK pistols for me, rank, if anything, below a Judge. A buddy of mine has one, likes it, and almost put a hole through his foot with one.
The ONE redeeming quality of AK pistols is SBRing them. That's it.
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The ONE redeeming quality of AK pistols is SBRing them. That's it.
They make good loudenboomer range toys as-is. =D
A Draco AK pistol is probably one of the cheapest and easiest ways to get into NFA. $200 to the treasury, a 4-6 month wait, and $120 give or take for an ACE folder stock. Putting a Ruger Charger into a Butler Creek folder is probably the other.
And 7.62x39 loses a lot less from a short barrel than 5.56/.223 does.
I don't know if he's still a member...but for a while one f***tard member (i.e., worse than Judge loving mouthbreathing idiots) of THR.org was talking about how he was going to take his AK Draco pistol, paint the muzzle orange like an airsoft gun (so that nobody would shoot him), and take it hiking with him (open carry) in a TN state park. (his ass did get arrested).
This is the f***tard in question: http://www.thehighroad.org/member.php?u=68661
This is his epic thread of fail: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=492845
The Judge is an utterly useless piece of *expletive deleted*.
That guy was on GlockTalk and ar-15.com too. Same results. Banhammer.
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Tennessee has given him the B&HAMMER in real life, too :D
http://lonelymachines.org/tag/kwikrnu/
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Tennessee has given him the B&HAMMER in real life, too :D
http://lonelymachines.org/tag/kwikrnu/
I'll be the first person to decry oppressive government...but damn did that guy ever deserve it for being both A) Dumb as a bag of hammers and B) Crazy as a shithouse rat. I seriously question his mental stability and thought process.
I do not tolerate idiots lightly...
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=|
Dad enjoys his judge and his drako.
They're both pulled out as dog walking guns (he's on privet property, so he can open carry all he wants)
We do have copperhead issues around here so the judge will most likely actually come in handy.
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another vote for the G21, don't worry about DEA agents, they only have a problem with the "fortay"
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They also shoot DEA agents in the foot.
Well, I'd consider that a feature, not a bug.
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The ONE redeeming quality of AK pistols is SBRing them. That's it.
I'd feel a lot better about them if that were possible in this state.
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Folks, thanks for the laughs and the advice. Since you didn't all see this as an opportunity to advise me to buy a BlasTech 500.
I shoot both the 21 and the 686 equally well, maybe a bit of an edge to the 686, but I've always shot revolvers a bit better than autos. Just something about me and my hands. What it came down to for me was trying to decide which was a better choice for the hike as a SHTF/personal defense tool. This is the Daniel Boone National Forest in Kentucky. I'm not really wanting a gun in case a bear or snake wants to get me. I'm wanting a gun on teh hike for the same reason I keep one by the bed, and CCW during the day. The whole reason I'm debating this is (1) in my mind, I've always thought of the revolver as a better survival handgun, since you don't needs mags to make it work...just ammo, and (2) Glocks are ugly and indestructable, so I wouldn't worry in the least about banging it around in the woods for a week.
Either way, I'm seriously considering the Safepacker hoster system, which to me seems ideal for an outdoor adventure.
Thanks guys.
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i ran out of motivation for reading and posting about firearms in 2005
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ya know a 45/410 hiking stick would have merit
if you did find a rattlesnake you could use it like a bang stick and muffle the report into the ground
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I'd go with the revolver, but then that's all that I have =)
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Folks, thanks for the laughs and the advice. Since you didn't all see this as an opportunity to advise me to buy a BlasTech 500.
I shoot both the 21 and the 686 equally well, maybe a bit of an edge to the 686, but I've always shot revolvers a bit better than autos. Just something about me and my hands. What it came down to for me was trying to decide which was a better choice for the hike as a SHTF/personal defense tool. This is the Daniel Boone National Forest in Kentucky. I'm not really wanting a gun in case a bear or snake wants to get me. I'm wanting a gun on teh hike for the same reason I keep one by the bed, and CCW during the day. The whole reason I'm debating this is (1) in my mind, I've always thought of the revolver as a better survival handgun, since you don't needs mags to make it work...just ammo, and (2) Glocks are ugly and indestructable, so I wouldn't worry in the least about banging it around in the woods for a week.
Either way, I'm seriously considering the Safepacker hoster system, which to me seems ideal for an outdoor adventure.
Thanks guys.
I'd PERSONALLY take the Glock. I feel that it can be kept running in the woods easier than a revolver (especially if you get sand or dirt in the mechanism of a revolver, it can be locked up tight until it gets fully cleaned out). Keep a spare mag with the gun in the Safepacker and another on your body in a secure pocket, and you are good to go. And the Glock is very corriosion resistant and you won't feel bad at all by it getting beat up a bit.
But, at THR, besides the Judge insanity, for some reason they overwhelmingly think that revolvers are the only suitable guns for woods carry...
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I'm interested in any feedback regarding the SafePacker from any users. Thinking I'll get one. It seems like a good balance of security and accessibility.
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The only bad thing about a revolver is if the snake tries to stick its tale in front of the hammer to keep you from firing it. Of course, if he is that close, you got problems anyway.
When I was a kid, I used to carry a walking stick for snakes (and to whack stuff). We didn't have bears or other predators to worry about though.
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The only bad thing about a revolver is if the snake tries to stick its tale in front of the hammer to keep you from firing it. Of course, if he is that close, you got problems anyway.
When I was a kid, I used to carry a walking stick for snakes (and to whack stuff). We didn't have bears or other predators to worry about though.
Could be worse, if you're carrying a Baretta 92 of some sort, the snake could just whip it's tail around the slide and remove it right from the frame!
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I'm interested in any feedback regarding the SafePacker from any users. Thinking I'll get one. It seems like a good balance of security and accessibility.
I like my tanker (chest) rig for my 1911. It is my preferred rig when bike riding.
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Depends where you are hiking, but sometimes the best weapon against a snake is a big f'in rock. It worked for Cain, it will likely work for you.
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just remember. Have a spare mag or cylender worth of ammo tucked in a ziplock in your pack some where...
You know, just in case you fall in a creek or something =D
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The only gun worth carrying is a Garand.
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ya know a 45/410 hiking stick would have merit
if you did find a rattlesnake you could use it like a bang stick and muffle the report into the ground
Hmmmm.....now that's a great idea!...... =D
I like my tanker (chest) rig for my 1911. It is my preferred rig when bike riding.
Here's another option..... http://www.simplyrugged.com/chesty-puller-conversion-system/ (http://www.simplyrugged.com/chesty-puller-conversion-system/)
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(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.beco-products.com%2Fimages%2Fproduct%2FMVC-230X.JPG&hash=d1d9bf97c3abfd21d9661e50a2131e5f75e48253)
this would work
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The only gun worth carrying is a Garand.
That sounds nice, but if you get out there and the snakes are at 1600 yards, you're going to wish you'd brought your Barrett.
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The only gun worth carrying is a Garand.
The only people who say that are people who don't have to carry around a Garand....
That said.... http://dailygunpictures.blogspot.com/2008/12/magnum-research-lone-eagle-scoped.html (http://dailygunpictures.blogspot.com/2008/12/magnum-research-lone-eagle-scoped.html)
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You're going at this all wrong, what you really need is an OTs-62. It's dual purpose, anti-snake and anti-kodiak! >:D
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The only gun worth carrying is a Garand.
Being a smart ass I went looking for a picture of some bubba converting a garand into an abomination of a pistol and happily was not able to find such an animal [ar15]
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The only people who say that are people who don't have to carry around a Garand....
I was quoting Jeff Cooper. He's dead, though. Probably died from exhaustion from carrying a Garand.
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This is good for light backpacking.
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi776.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fyy50%2Fjdavis147%2Fminigun2.jpg&hash=2fc547c4d177e1edb5c8bb04be3e2e1c218e9e77)
If your going to a bad area, I'll look for something better.
jim
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It needs a pistol grip and a folding stock.
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This is good for light backpacking.
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi776.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fyy50%2Fjdavis147%2Fminigun2.jpg&hash=2fc547c4d177e1edb5c8bb04be3e2e1c218e9e77)
If your going to a bad area, I'll look for something better.
jim
Where do you put the battery for that motor?
Or is that thing lever action?
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Or is that thing lever action?
Lever action? We're talking Tactical here.
To be really tactical, it has to be gas-piston operated. Everybody knows that.
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Where do you put the battery for that motor?
Or is that thing lever action?
;/
havn't you been paying attention to hollywood?
it doesn't need a battery, just blood and magic. :P
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Are there any of those...plastic... parts on that? [barf]
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Are there any of those...plastic... parts on that? [barf]
Nope.....it's all MIM.... =D
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Lever action? We're talking Tactical here.
To be really tactical, it has to be gas-piston operated. Everybody knows that.
<channeling Jim March>
So? You tap the barrel, and run some fraction of the gasses through to actuate the lever through an external linkage. Put a piston somewhere in the chain to satisfy your rule. Perhaps the piston is the final step.
</channeling Jim March>
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As a regular backpacker myself, I'd recommend taking the smallest and lightest of the three.
If you are going to carry something around the wilderness you probably aren't going to use you might as well minimize the weight and space penalty.
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The only gun worth carrying is a Garand.
I was quoting Jeff Cooper. He's dead, though. Probably died from exhaustion from carrying a Garand.
??? Jeff Cooper was best known for advocating the large-caliber, single-action auto-pistol, and the bolt-action scout rifle. He was a Garand fan, but a lot of gun nuts are. What am I missing?
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I was quoting Jeff Cooper. He's dead, though. Probably died from exhaustion from carrying a Garand.
Epic. :lol:
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What am I missing?
A sarcasm meter? ;)
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A sarcasm meter? ;)
It may be his whole funny bone, but we'll have to get an xray to be sure...
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It may be his whole funny bone, but we'll have to get an xray to be sure...
X-rays may not be enough....prep for exploratory surgery....