Isreal-Hamas truce starts today....

[taurusowner]

Pretty much anyone who uses terms like "Zionist" needs to be removed from the planet before the rest of the population can move on.

[De Selby]

Pretty much anyone who uses terms like "Zionist" needs to be removed from the planet before the rest of the population can move on.

Wow-so you want to eliminate Benjamin Netanyahu, Ehud Olmert, Tzipi Livni, and most of the Israeli government!???~~~

Check out all these Israeli agencies that use the name Zionist:

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive/2000_2009/2004/7/Herzl+and+Zionism.htm

The Department of Jewish Zionist Education in Israel might have a problem with this too:

http://www.jafi.org.il/education/100/concepts/aliyah3.html

I guess you want to "eliminate" the Prime Minister too, since he gave a speech to Zionist Congress:

http://www.pmo.gov.il/PMOEng/Archive/Speeches/2006/06/speechkong200606.htm

Seriously....how can you comment on the doings of the Israelis and the Palestinians when you have no idea that Zionist is what the Israeli government calls itself???

[De Selby]

Yeah. I figured it'd be about that short.

Until the Palis start knocking over the rocket launchers and beating down the Hamas people, until they stop tacitly approving, nothing will change.

I suppose you were just as upset about the settler who launched a rocket at the Palestinians a week ago?

[Manedwolf]

Yeah. I figured it'd be about that short.

Until the Palis start knocking over the rocket launchers and beating down the Hamas people, until they stop tacitly approving, nothing will change.

I suppose you were just as upset about the settler who launched a rocket at the Palestinians a week ago?

Is that a daily occurrence? No? I didn't think so.

And he should have been shot, too. Just like anyone firing a rocket at civilians should be shot.

[Nitrogen]

Yeah. I figured it'd be about that short.

Until the Palis start knocking over the rocket launchers and beating down the Hamas people, until they stop tacitly approving, nothing will change.

I suppose you were just as upset about the settler who launched a rocket at the Palestinians a week ago?

If the investigation takes longer than a month, and no arrests are made, yes.

[De Selby]

Yeah. I figured it'd be about that short.

Until the Palis start knocking over the rocket launchers and beating down the Hamas people, until they stop tacitly approving, nothing will change.

I suppose you were just as upset about the settler who launched a rocket at the Palestinians a week ago?

Is that a daily occurrence? No? I didn't think so.

And he should have been shot, too. Just like anyone firing a rocket at civilians should be shot.

Palestinian civilians being killed is certainly daily-check out the numbers.

Like I said, anyone who reduces this to "IDF angels/Palestinians devils" is simply out of touch with reality.  Hamas blows up old ladies at malls, the IDF blows up families on the beach and occassionaly shoots a 8-10 year old girl.  There are innocent victims on every side of the war.

[De Selby]

Yeah. I figured it'd be about that short.

Until the Palis start knocking over the rocket launchers and beating down the Hamas people, until they stop tacitly approving, nothing will change.

I suppose you were just as upset about the settler who launched a rocket at the Palestinians a week ago?

If the investigation takes longer than a month, and no arrests are made, yes.

Protestors are regularly shot without resulting investigations or arrests too. 

[Manedwolf]

Yeah. I figured it'd be about that short.

Until the Palis start knocking over the rocket launchers and beating down the Hamas people, until they stop tacitly approving, nothing will change.

I suppose you were just as upset about the settler who launched a rocket at the Palestinians a week ago?

Is that a daily occurrence? No? I didn't think so.

And he should have been shot, too. Just like anyone firing a rocket at civilians should be shot.

Palestinian civilians being killed is certainly daily-check out the numbers.

Like I said, anyone who reduces this to "IDF angels/Palestinians devils" is simply out of touch with reality.  Hamas blows up old ladies at malls, the IDF blows up families on the beach and occassionaly shoots a 8-10 year old girl.  There are innocent victims on every side of the war.

They're being killed because:

1. Hamas uses human shields and is proud of it.
2. Hamas' own firing in the air kills them.

I am beyond sick of you making excuses for the Hamas animals. Really sick of it. You enthusiastically excuse the inexcusable, and that makes you part of it.

[De Selby]

Yeah. I figured it'd be about that short.

Until the Palis start knocking over the rocket launchers and beating down the Hamas people, until they stop tacitly approving, nothing will change.

I suppose you were just as upset about the settler who launched a rocket at the Palestinians a week ago?

Is that a daily occurrence? No? I didn't think so.

And he should have been shot, too. Just like anyone firing a rocket at civilians should be shot.

Palestinian civilians being killed is certainly daily-check out the numbers.

Like I said, anyone who reduces this to "IDF angels/Palestinians devils" is simply out of touch with reality.  Hamas blows up old ladies at malls, the IDF blows up families on the beach and occassionaly shoots a 8-10 year old girl.  There are innocent victims on every side of the war.

They're being killed because:

1. Hamas uses human shields and is proud of it.
2. Hamas' own firing in the air kills them.

I am beyond sick of you making excuses for the Hamas animals. Really sick of it. You enthusiastically excuse the inexcusable, and that makes you part of it.

Again, sometimes 1 and 2 are the case, but not always.  Sometimes the IDF shoots little kids intentionally, for whatever reason, and other times it bombs recklessly. 

That doesn't mean that every killing is as such, but certainly some killings are.  Just like not every Hamas attack is aimed at civilians-they do attack uniformed soldiers too.

I'm not making excuses for Hamas-I'm responding to your claims that Israel is totally blameless for this state of affairs. 

I think your problem is that you let your ideology substitute for truth-whatever you believe should be leads you to propagandize on behalf of the parties you view as supporting your ideology.  They never do wrong.  And the other side is always evil.  Personally, I think an ideology driven worldview that takes no account of the facts is dangerous to civil society.

[Bigjake]

Again, sometimes 1 and 2 are the case, but not always. Sometimes the IDF shoots little kids intentionally, for whatever reason, and other times it bombs recklessly.

Documented Proof??  Thats what I thought....

That doesn't mean that every killing is as such, but certainly some killings are.  Just like not every Hamas attack is aimed at civilians-they do attack uniformed soldiers too.

I'm sure you're right.  Hamas has definitely attacked uniformed soldiers, by accident while mortaring civies.

I'm not making excuses for Hamas

Thats rich...

I think your problem is that you let your ideology substitute for truth-whatever you believe should be leads you to propagandize on behalf of the parties you view as supporting your ideology.  They never do wrong.  And the other side is always evil.  Personally, I think an ideology driven worldview that takes no account of the facts is dangerous to civil society.

And I think given the knee jerk response you have to defending obvious evil every time it rears its head should get you a scholarship to the Correy school on palestinian culture

[De Selby]

Bigjake,

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A16886-2004Nov27.html

"It's a little girl," a soldier watching from a nearby Israeli observation post cautioned over the military radio. "She's running defensively eastward. . . . A girl of about 10, she's behind the embankment, scared to death."

Four minutes later, Israeli troops opened fire on the girl with machine guns and rifles, the radio transmissions indicated.

There's one of the little girls that has been shot. There are others if you'd like proof of those too.

Here's an attack on uniformed troops:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/06/25/AR2007062500233.html

[AmbulanceDriver]

I really try to avoid posting in threads like this, but I just had to on this one.

SS, tell me, do the terrorist acts Hamas commits occur on a regular basis, or are they a rare event?

Because the things you are accusing the IDF of committing seem to be very rare.  Isolated acts by nutjobs, as the case you posted shows (this is the whole paragraph that you started to quote):

Four minutes later, Israeli troops opened fire on the girl with machine guns and rifles, the radio transmissions indicated. The captain walked to the spot where the girl "was lying down" and fired two bullets from his M-16 assault rifle into her head, according to an indictment against the officer. He started to walk away, but pivoted, set his rifle on automatic and emptied his magazine into the girl's prone body, the indictment alleged

And *gasp*!!  the Israeli's have INDICTED this individual for his crime.  Does the palestinian gov't indict the terrorists that kill Israeli civilians?

As a result, the company commander -- identified by the army only as Capt. R -- was indicted this past week on charges of misuse of a firearm, ordering subordinates to lie about the shooting and violation of military regulations. In addition, the military moved to reexamine the investigation, which Yaalon conceded had been "a grave failure" and which the indictment alleged was the subject of an attempted coverup.

The shooting of the schoolgirl added to a growing number of incidents that have spurred Israeli soldiers to speak out about abuses of Palestinians, despite pressure from superiors in the field and statements by senior military officials playing down such cases. Last week, after troops provided photographic evidence to an Israeli newspaper, the military opened an investigation into allegations that soldiers desecrated the bodies of Palestinians killed during army operations.

[Phyphor]

I give it 30-48 hours TOPS

[De Selby]

SS, tell me, do the terrorist acts Hamas commits occur on a regular basis, or are they a rare event?

Regular basis.

Because the things you are accusing the IDF of committing seem to be very rare.  Isolated acts by nutjobs, as the case you posted shows (this is the whole paragraph that you started to quote):

They're actually not that rare-the vast majority of casualties in their bombings are not combatants.

The case against the killer of iman hams was eventually dropped, as are most terror/torture prosecutions against uniformed soldiers.  Of course that's because some of them are innocent, but as with everything else in this conflict, that isn't always true.  The Israelis are not as hard on political murderers as we are here in the states-there's even a big push to release the nut who shot Yitzak Rabin.

[Biker]

Pretty much anyone who uses terms like "Zionist" needs to be removed from the planet before the rest of the population can move on.

That's a harsh statement. Why do you feel this way?

Biker

[Nitrogen]

Pretty much anyone who uses terms like "Zionist" needs to be removed from the planet before the rest of the population can move on.

That's a harsh statement. Why do you feel this way?

Biker

Zionist is a term that has been stolen from its critics.
What Zionist really means, is a supporter of zionism.

Zionism is an international political movement that regards the Jews as a national entity and seeks to preserve that entity.

Now that's not bad, is it?

[Manedwolf]

Pretty much anyone who uses terms like "Zionist" needs to be removed from the planet before the rest of the population can move on.

That's a harsh statement. Why do you feel this way?

Biker

Zionist is a term that has been stolen from its critics.
What Zionist really means, is a supporter of zionism.

Zionism is an international political movement that regards the Jews as a national entity and seeks to preserve that entity.

Now that's not bad, is it?

We would also have to blow up Mormons.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

Because the things you are accusing the IDF of committing seem to be very rare.  Isolated acts by nutjobs, as the case you posted shows (this is the whole paragraph that you started to quote):

They're actually not that rare-the vast majority of casualties in their bombings are not combatants.

That's a natural consequence of Palestinian terrorist groups systematically using human shields and choosing to operate in heavily populated areas so as to increase the bloodshed.

Have the Israelis ever tried to kill innocent civilians?  It happens sometimes, due to accident or negligence or bad fortune, but is it ever intended?

How often do the various Palestinian terrorist groups deliberately try to kill innocent civilians?  They target innocents as a matter of routine, right?

It seems to me that there is a clear difference between the two.  Deliberately seeking to kill innocents is utterly indefensible.  It amazes me that anyone could try to equate deliberate, premeditated murder with legitimate military operations that try to avoid innocent deaths wherever possible.

[De Selby]

Because the things you are accusing the IDF of committing seem to be very rare.  Isolated acts by nutjobs, as the case you posted shows (this is the whole paragraph that you started to quote):

They're actually not that rare-the vast majority of casualties in their bombings are not combatants.

That's a natural consequence of Palestinian terrorist groups systematically using human shields and choosing to operate in heavily populated areas so as to increase the bloodshed.

Have the Israelis ever tried to kill innocent civilians?  It happens sometimes, due to accident or negligence or bad fortune, but is it ever intended?

How often do the various Palestinian terrorist groups deliberately try to kill innocent civilians?  They target innocents as a matter of routine, right?

It seems to me that there is a clear difference between the two.  Deliberately seeking to kill innocents is utterly indefensible.  It amazes me that anyone could try to equate deliberate, premeditated murder with legitimate military operations that try to avoid innocent deaths wherever possible.

Certainly there have been instances of intentional killing of civilians on the part of the Israelis-that is well documented.  I would recommend reading Benny Morris's "Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem" for the historical use of violence against Palestinian civilians by the IDF and its precursors.

The war in Lebanon was the most recent example: Dan Halutz specifically said that he would target civilians.  "No where is safe", "he said, and then ordered millions of cluster bombs launched all over the south of the country.  So it does happen-although not in the same proportion as the Palestinian groups do it.

I think it's true to say that a bigger percentage of Israeli attacks are aimed at military targets, but that both the Israelis and the Palestinians target civilians.  And certainly in impact the Israelis are winning the contest-they've killed nearly 10 times more civilians than the Palestinians have.  In my book, the results count as well as the intentions.

[MicroBalrog]

Zionism is an international political movement that regards the Jews as a national entity and seeks to preserve that entity.

Classical Zionism, such as that espoused by Ben-Gurion and his buddies, also revolves around the importance of "Mamlachtiut" (statism) and socialism.

It is NOT a good thing.

Further, Zionism seeks to preserve the Jews by a particular method - by the creation of a nation-state for tem in what Christians and religious Jews call the Holy Land.