Author Topic: Looks like I can't build that mini-sub I wanted...  (Read 6604 times)

Gewehr98

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Looks like I can't build that mini-sub I wanted...
« on: January 14, 2009, 02:30:42 PM »
Quote
http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/01/14/drug.subs/index.html

I wonder how the Coast Guard differentiates between recreational mini-subs, and drug subs?

Drug sub:



Mini-sub:

"Bother", said Pooh, as he chambered another round...

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zahc

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Re: Looks like I can't build that mini-sub I wanted...
« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2009, 02:46:44 PM »
I always thought it would be a fun project to build a personal sub. Imagine how much fun it would be scouting out under lakes and stuff for fishing spots.
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Boomhauer

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Re: Looks like I can't build that mini-sub I wanted...
« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2009, 02:48:29 PM »
Eh, I want a hovercraft instead...

No sub for me...I'm claustrophobic...



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AJ Dual

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Re: Looks like I can't build that mini-sub I wanted...
« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2009, 03:06:03 PM »
I wonder how the Coast Guard differentiates between recreational mini-subs, and drug subs?


I would guess that operating in daylight and not having any drugs on board are the two key differentiators...
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Bogie

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Re: Looks like I can't build that mini-sub I wanted...
« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2009, 03:08:25 PM »
How about a man-portable propulsion system... Be heck waterproofing it, and you'd be limited in your charge, but it'd be fun to do about 15-20 knots...
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Gewehr98

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Re: Looks like I can't build that mini-sub I wanted...
« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2009, 03:09:04 PM »
I thought the same thing, too, AJ.

It appears though, that the recently enacted anti-smuggling legislation skips the subtlety entirely. If Uncle Sam thinks you're trying to avoid detection, you're toast.  No stealth mode allowed. 

Quote
0/13/2008--Public Law.
(This measure has not been amended since it was introduced. The expanded summary of the Senate passed version is repeated here.)
Drug Trafficking Vessel Interdiction Act of 2008 -
Title I - Criminal Prohibition
Amends the federal criminal code to impose a fine and/or prison term of up to 15 years for knowingly operating, attempting or conspiring to operate, or embarking in any submersible or semi-submersible vessel that is without nationality in, through, or from waters beyond the outer limit of the territorial sea of a single country or a lateral limit of that country's territorial sea with an adjacent country, with the intent to avoid detection. Grants extraterritorial federal jurisdiction over an offense under this Act.
Specifies that a claim of nationality or registry under this Act includes only: (1) possession on board the vessel and production of documents evidencing the vessel's nationality as provided in the 1958 Convention on the High Seas; (2) flying its nation's ensign or flag; or (3) a verbal claim of nationality or registry by the person in charge of the vessel.
Makes it an affirmative defense to a prosecution under this Act that a vessel operated at the time of a violation was: (1) a vessel of the Untied States or lawfully registered in a foreign nation; (2) classed by and designated in accordance with the rules of a classification society; (3) lawfully operated in a government regulated or licensed activity; or (4) equipped with and using an operable automatic identification system, vessel monitoring system, or a long range identification and tracking system. Specifies the documents required to conclusively prove an affirmative defense.
Directs the U.S. Sentencing Commission to promulgate or amend sentencing guidelines to provide adequate penalties for violating the criminal prohibition imposed by this Act.
Title II - Civil Prohibition
Imposes a civil penalty of up to $1 million for a violation of this Act. Allows the same defenses to a civil enforcement proceeding as for a criminal prosecution under this Act.
Defines a "semi-submersible vessel" as any manned or unmanned watercraft constructed or adapted to operate with most of its hull and bulk under the surface of the water. Defines a "submersible vessel" as a manned or unmanned vessel capable of operating completely below the surface of the water.

"Bother", said Pooh, as he chambered another round...

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Nick1911

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Re: Looks like I can't build that mini-sub I wanted...
« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2009, 03:12:25 PM »
So the drug lords pay 2 million a sub, huh?

Heck, I'll build them with a sticker price of 1.5 million!  =D

In all seriousness - that's quite an undertaking; but substantially easier in a world where $5 micro controllers, $15 solenoid valves, cheap pressure tanks and extremely cheap used machine tools are widely available, as well as the engineering knowledge to make use of them.


Boomhauer

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Re: Looks like I can't build that mini-sub I wanted...
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2009, 03:13:58 PM »
So the drug lords pay 2 million a sub, huh?

Heck, I'll build them with a sticker price of 1.5 million!  =D

In all seriousness - that's quite an undertaking; but substantially easier in a world where $5 micro controllers, $15 solenoid valves, cheap pressure tanks and extremely cheap used machine tools are widely available, as well as the engineering knowledge to make use of them.



Check out that European guy who built his own sub...a very nice one at that, too.

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Holy hell. It's like giving a loaded gun to a chimpanzee...

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the last thing you need is rabies. You're already angry enough as it is.

OTOH, there wouldn't be a tweeker left in Georgia...

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BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD! SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE! AND THROW SOME STEAK ON THE GRILL!

Gewehr98

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Re: Looks like I can't build that mini-sub I wanted...
« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2009, 03:14:14 PM »
I actually had plans to build one, using leftover outdoor residential LPG tanks for the hull.

I discovered I'm too claustrophobic, though.   =|
"Bother", said Pooh, as he chambered another round...

http://neuralmisfires.blogspot.com

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Nick1911

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Re: Looks like I can't build that mini-sub I wanted...
« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2009, 03:19:43 PM »
I actually had plans to build one, using leftover outdoor residential LPG tanks for the hull.

I discovered I'm too claustrophobic, though.   =|

That'd be pretty awesome.  What did you plan to use as a prime mover?  4 Cylinder Diesel?

K Frame

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Re: Looks like I can't build that mini-sub I wanted...
« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2009, 03:32:43 PM »
JAMIS!

Get your butt down to the marina and get Wifey McMoneybags ready to sail! We've got some depth charges to drop!
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AJ Dual

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Re: Looks like I can't build that mini-sub I wanted...
« Reply #11 on: January 14, 2009, 03:33:42 PM »
That'd be pretty awesome.  What did you plan to use as a prime mover?  4 Cylinder Diesel?

I'd be more interested just where in Wisconsin or the Great Lakes Gwher planned on taking his sub where he could see more than six feet in the water...  :laugh:

Most places around here, the water is either pea-soup, or if it's "clear", it's also brown as cola from tannins from submerged trees.
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JonnyB

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Re: Looks like I can't build that mini-sub I wanted...
« Reply #12 on: January 14, 2009, 04:12:53 PM »
Let me see if I can get my brain around this new bill...

We have criminals conducting illegal smuggling of illegal, controlled substances. When these products are sold, these criminals don't pay any sort of taxes - import, sales, income, whatever.

Yet, by making it even more illegal, it can be stopped.

Why didn't we think of this sooner? The guy's a genius!

jb
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Jimmy Dean

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Re: Looks like I can't build that mini-sub I wanted...
« Reply #13 on: January 14, 2009, 04:51:46 PM »
This bill is unconstitutional though.  It lays the burden of proof on the defense, vs. the prosecution.  Technically just because your are on a sub does not qualify as intent to stay hidden.  But it says that it is up to the captain of the 'sub' to prove that there were not drugs, were not intentions to stay concealed, and that the ship was operating under lawful activity.

This is COMPLETELY against how our justice system is supposed to be working.

I don't support drug trafficers, but I don't feel that we should let our own rights be infringed so that the feds can get them better.  (when those restrictions can also be used to tag lawful abiding citizens)

On another note, I want a personal sub though.

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Re: Looks like I can't build that mini-sub I wanted...
« Reply #14 on: January 14, 2009, 07:43:26 PM »
"or embarking in any submersible or semi-submersible vessel that is without nationality in..."

There's your way out.  Hang an American flag on it and you're good.
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Looks like I can't build that mini-sub I wanted...
« Reply #15 on: January 14, 2009, 08:21:46 PM »
with the intent to avoid detection.

Specifies that a claim of nationality or registry under this Act includes only: (1) possession on board the vessel and production of documents evidencing the vessel's nationality as provided in the 1958 Convention on the High Seas; (2) flying its nation's ensign or flag; or (3) a verbal claim of nationality or registry by the person in charge of the vessel.
Makes it an affirmative defense to a prosecution under this Act that a vessel operated at the time of a violation was: (1) a vessel of the Untied States or lawfully registered in a foreign nation; (2) classed by and designated in accordance with the rules of a classification society; (3) lawfully operated in a government regulated or licensed activity; or (4) equipped with and using an operable automatic identification system, vessel monitoring system, or a long range identification and tracking system. Specifies the documents required to conclusively prove an affirmative defense.


missed that folks?
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Gewehr98

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Re: Looks like I can't build that mini-sub I wanted...
« Reply #16 on: January 14, 2009, 08:26:37 PM »
That's pretty generic, considering that submerged, well, submarines are pretty hard to detect without using military ASW assetts, regardless. I suppose I could paint an American flag somewhere on the upper deck...

Nick, I was thinking Lake Superior, and some of my local lakes here in Wisconsin.  Last time I was up on the shores of the great lake, it was still crystal-clear.
"Bother", said Pooh, as he chambered another round...

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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Looks like I can't build that mini-sub I wanted...
« Reply #17 on: January 14, 2009, 08:28:18 PM »
i think if you register your boat your cool
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

Firethorn

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Re: Looks like I can't build that mini-sub I wanted...
« Reply #18 on: January 14, 2009, 08:55:02 PM »
i think if you register your boat your cool

Pretty much; the detection stuff means you stick a sonic/radio beacon on it.  The law doesn't say that you actually have to turn it on.  Heck, by my reading of it, you can be attempting to avoid detection all you want as long as the sub has a nationality. 

Register it(papers), paint a flag on it or have a flag on a extensible mast, and when the coast guard asks you what nation the ship's from, give them an answer.  ;)


Harold Tuttle

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Re: Looks like I can't build that mini-sub I wanted...
« Reply #19 on: January 14, 2009, 09:12:06 PM »
Bushnell Turtle sub:


A man hunkered inside a replica of a Revolutionary War submarine was arrested Friday, 3 August 2009after police found the strange-looking vessel partly submerged in a security zone near the docked Queen Mary 2.
The vessel and an inflatable boat were spotted by police near the luxury ocean liner docked at the cruise ship terminal in Red Hook, Brooklyn. Police arrested three men.
New York City Police Commissioner Ray Kelly said the submarine did not represent a terror threat, but was "the creative craft of three adventuresome individuals."
The brown, egg-shaped wooden vessel, known as a "turtle submarine," is a replica of a submarine American Turtle used during the American Revolution, said Coast Guard Petty Officer Angelia Rorison. It looks like a diving bell, with a hatch on top, and is about 8 feet long and 4 feet wide. It is propelled by a pedal-operated paddle.
The Coast Guard issued two citations to Philip Riley, 35, of Brooklyn, who was inside the vessel, Rorison said. "Basically, the vessel was not safe to sail. It had no lights, no flares. It was not registered," she said. "Instead of safety violations, this could have turned into a search and rescue."
The investigation began after a New York police detective noticed the sub and the raft and summoned the Harbor Unit. Rorison said all three men were taken in for questioning by the NYPD.
"While our ongoing investigation has so far yielded no suspicious devices or materials other than the vessel itself, NYPD detectives will extensively examine Queen Mary 2 to ensure its integrity," said Kelly. "The three individuals believed responsible are in custody and may face various charges. Meanwhile we can summarize today's incident as marine mischief."
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Re: Looks like I can't build that mini-sub I wanted...
« Reply #20 on: January 14, 2009, 09:15:10 PM »
So the drug lords pay 2 million a sub, huh?

Heck, I'll build them with a sticker price of 1.5 million!  =D

In all seriousness - that's quite an undertaking; but substantially easier in a world where $5 micro controllers, $15 solenoid valves, cheap pressure tanks and extremely cheap used machine tools are widely available, as well as the engineering knowledge to make use of them.


I'm the faculty advisor for a team of undergrads competing in a national underwater robotics competition in June.  We are designing and building a robot, but it could easily be made more large scale, into a sub.  You are very right about things getting cheaper. 
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Mike

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Re: Looks like I can't build that mini-sub I wanted...
« Reply #21 on: January 15, 2009, 09:54:15 AM »
If we get some torpedoes we could use them on pirates! =D