Post by: brimic on August 28, 2008, 06:37:07 AM
Since having the tires changes, I no longer fear an imminet blowout, so I've been pushing my limits every day. First was hitting corners faster/harder- I'm getting better and more confident every day. Next was speed. I rode around at 45-50 before having the tires changes, rode a few times at 55-60 after the change and am still getting used to it. However, I took it out on the interstate last night when there was very sparse traffic and this scared the daylights out of me. At over 60 mph it felt like I was walking a tightrope- real unstable, I had to make constant tiny corrections for air gusts and the tiny bit of wind we had.. I had had a white knuckle ride for about 6 miles and finally exited because I had enough.
Is this something that I just have to gut out and get accustomed to or is the bike telling me that something is wrong that might kill me?
Post by: cassandra and sara's daddy on August 28, 2008, 06:38:55 AM
Post by: mgdavis on August 28, 2008, 07:27:04 AM
Remember, try not to get frustrated. Every rider was a new rider at one point. Things will become easier and more comfortable as you rack up miles.
Post by: Werewolf on August 28, 2008, 07:41:21 AM
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At over 60 mph it felt like I was walking a tightrope- real unstable, I had to make constant tiny corrections for air gusts and the tiny bit of wind we had..
That's not normal! When you say corrections what exactly are you talking about?I've been riding for 35 years. Never experienced what you've described be it a small bike or a large one.
If you're getting a thumping vibration that occurs when you go over a set speed then your swing arm bearing may be bad.
If the instability means you're constantly having to lean one way or the other to just go straight you may have a problem with your front end. Worst case - bent fork. Maybe a really worn out front wheel bearing.
I'll say this again - what you describe isn't normal. You should be able to take your hands off the handlebars at just about any speed or 20 mph and go straight with no corrections. Any vibration that occurs at speed is dangerous and needs to be identified and repaired.
From what you've written I keep coming back to swing arm bearing or bent fork both of which can get you killed.
Have that bike inspected by a QUALIFIED mechanic.
Post by: coppertales on August 28, 2008, 07:44:29 AM
Post by: brimic on August 28, 2008, 08:12:24 AM
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That's not normal! When you say corrections what exactly are you talking about?....
There didn't seem to be a shimmy, wobble, or vibration, but it felt like more like a balancing act as if I were standing on one leg whereas the bike feels very solid at slower speeds. Not sure if this makes sense, but its the best way can relate it. I might try agian tonight if its not raining, if it still feels hinky I might get it checked out.
Another thing I thought about is that I might be a bit heavy for the current suspension settings? I weigh around 260, and there's a section of road in town that has expansion joints at certain intervals where it feels like I'm bottoming out the suspension over every crack because of the frequency of hitting of crack. I used to have the same problem with that particular stretch of road with a pickup bed full of gravel where the truck would bounce up and down. It doesn't feel that way on the interstate, but I wonder if my suspension is too soft right now for me?
Any knowledge on changing the preload on the suspension? My service manual doesn't say much other than there's a cam on each rear strut....
Post by: Werewolf on August 28, 2008, 09:08:40 AM
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That's not normal! When you say corrections what exactly are you talking about?....
There didn't seem to be a shimmy, wobble, or vibration, but it felt like more like a balancing act as if I were standing on one leg whereas the bike feels very solid at slower speeds. Not sure if this makes sense, but its the best way can relate it. I might try agian tonight if its not raining, if it still feels hinky I might get it checked out.
Another thing I thought about is that I might be a bit heavy for the current suspension settings? I weigh around 260, and there's a section of road in town that has expansion joints at certain intervals where it feels like I'm bottoming out the suspension over every crack because of the frequency of hitting of crack. I used to have the same problem with that particular stretch of road with a pickup bed full of gravel where the truck would bounce up and down. It doesn't feel that way on the interstate, but I wonder if my suspension is too soft right now for me?
Any knowledge on changing the preload on the suspension? My service manual doesn't say much other than there's a cam on each rear strut....
RE: No vibration, wobble or shimmy but feels like a balancing act. Is that kind'a like when you first rode a bicycle and you were conscious of the need to balance the thing and used the handle bars to get upright and over corrected?
RE: Suspension. If you've got the original toolkit that came with the bike there should be a spanner wrench in it to adjust the rear shocks or struts as the case may be. That cam is probably a stepped ratchet on the outer body of the shock. You'll need to use the spanner to turn it in a direction that compresses the spring to make the shock stiffer. You should be able to look at it and see how that's done with the spanner. But then you've got a Harley and all I've ever ridden is rice burners. Harley's may be different. If they are someone will chime in. In any event if the rear suspension is bottoming out that's a bad thing. You'll need to attend to that by either adjusting it or replacing the shocks if necessary.
Post by: Firethorn on August 28, 2008, 09:14:30 AM
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At over 60 mph it felt like I was walking a tightrope- real unstable, I had to make constant tiny corrections for air gusts and the tiny bit of wind we had..
That's not normal! When you say corrections what exactly are you talking about?I have to agree, though my experience is far less - I took the MSF beginners class, and my new bike is a Yamaha V-Star 650.
I got out on the highway pretty much immediately out of the lot to go home. Did about 55 all the way.
In my 1k miles of experience, 95% highway, it takes quite a gust to shove me over, and the faster I go the more stable I am.
Except for wind pressure on my legs, 75 is no problem.
As stated, when at speed I can pretty much take my hands off the bars, and other than slowing down from losing my throttle, I'm perfectly stable. Even more so than a bicycle because of the higher speeds.
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Have that bike inspected by a QUALIFIED mechanic.
A very good idea.
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Another thing I thought about is that I might be a bit heavy for the current suspension settings? I weigh around 260, and there's a section of road in town that has expansion joints at certain intervals where it feels like I'm bottoming out the suspension over every crack because of the frequency of hitting of crack. I used to have the same problem with that particular stretch of road with a pickup bed full of gravel where the truck would bounce up and down. It doesn't feel that way on the interstate, but I wonder if my suspension is too soft right now for me?
I'm not familiar with that bike, but I know that you'd be right around the weight limits for my 650, so it's possible.
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RE: No vibration, wobble or shimmy but feels like a balancing act. Is that kind'a like when you first rode a bicycle and you were conscious of the need to balance the thing and used the handle bars to get upright and over corrected?
Very odd. When I'm at highway speeds, I feel like I could hang off of one end of the motorcycle and still not fall down. Very stable at those speeds.
Post by: Nitrogen on August 28, 2008, 09:33:54 AM
I want a motorbike badly, but she's convinced I'll fall over at the slightest breeze.
Post by: Marnoot on August 28, 2008, 09:35:51 AM
Post by: Werewolf on August 28, 2008, 12:19:40 PM
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I think it's just due to the fact that any handlebar movement translates to exaggerated movement in the bike at higher speeds,
Except that a bike isn't a car. The faster you go on a bike the less the handle bars move. In fact if you want to kill yourself in a spectacular manner at any speed over about 30 mph or so just grab those handle bars and jerk 'em right or left but only do so if you're serious about ending your life.At speed on an MC you should not feel any movement in the handlebars at all - none - nada - ZERO. I'm not sure of the physics behind turning an MC even though I've been riding for 35 years (I know that supposedly the front wheel turns in the direction opposite of the turn) but I do know if you feel the bars moving in a turn at speed you've got a problem. If you feel 'em moving at speed while trying to track straight you've got a problem.
The faster you go on an MC the more stable it gets - up to a point and that point is no where near 60 or 70 mph.
You cannot turn an MC at speed by manhandling the handlebars. You lean into and let the bike do the rest. Try moving the handlebars by force in a turn at speed and - well - it'll suck to be you.
I'll say this one more time and then I'm done:
If you're feeling anything at speed that you think requires you to take corrective action, that doesn't feel right, that's a vibration or thump, if the bike won't track straight with your hands off the handlebars at 30 mph or so then GET THE THING INSPECTED BY SOMEONE WHO KNOWS WHAT THEY'RE DOING!
Ignore this advice at your peril. Better safe than sorry. MC's aren't a vehicle to mess with maintenance wise - they've got to work right, they ain't cars and there's very little give or tolerance in them safety wise.
EDITED to ADD: and if you haven't already done it run - don't walk - to the nearest MC safety course and take it. It'll be the best money you ever spent. It'll be more valuable to you than carrying a gun in big city ghetto, it'll be more valuable than... well you get the idea.
Post by: Marnoot on August 28, 2008, 12:26:40 PM
Post by: Monkeyleg on August 28, 2008, 12:44:57 PM
As for being able to take hands off the controls, that's something I can't do on my bike unless I'm on a very straight stretch where I can hike my butt off to the left side of the seat. The front wheel on a Springer is offset to the right of center. It's not on a Sportster, though.
Post by: Marnoot on August 28, 2008, 12:51:59 PM
What kind of bursts of wind are we talking about? Even the air turbulence from a semi will cause the bike to move a bit. You get used to things like that.
I think that's the case for me. Little bursts of turbulence from traffic that move me around. I am indeed getting used to it.
Post by: charby on August 28, 2008, 01:30:06 PM
Post by: MillCreek on August 28, 2008, 01:48:13 PM
Post by: brimic on August 28, 2008, 01:53:02 PM
Probably too much traffic on the interstate tonight anyhow with everyone travelling north for vacation + a gazillion Harley riders that are camping down the street from me.
If I get out, I'l try the hands off the handlebars at around 30 mph.
I have a feeling this won't be a problem as I've had to fiddle with my gloves or turn on the petcock on the street behind my house a few times which took 1 hand and my eyes off the road momentarily without the bike doing anything but go straight.... (the street is a long wide street between my subdivision and another subdivision that's starting to be built- no other cars, pets, kids on or near the road).
Post by: Racehorse on August 28, 2008, 01:59:01 PM
...because of the frequency of hitting of crack.
If you're hitting crack with a lot of frequency, I guarantee that will cause you problems on a motorcycle.
Post by: cassandra and sara's daddy on August 28, 2008, 03:04:35 PM
Post by: charby on August 28, 2008, 03:10:32 PM
are there rain groves in road? they can give a funny feeling. and there was this darn bridge near hassisburg pa that was that metal grid most of the way across that was extra special in the rain
We had two of those in my hometown, both built in the first decade of the 1900's. One spanned the Mississippi River for about 3/8 of a mile and other is 200 or so feet long. The one that crossed the river you had to drive about 15 mph and it made for a white knuckle drive. The bridge was replaced in 1994.
The other is still standing and when I was still living at home I used to hit the bridge on my bike doing the speed limit of 25 mph and when I left the bridge I'd be somewhere around 60mph. Seemed when you poured the coals on it smoothed out the ride across the bridge.
Post by: cassandra and sara's daddy on August 28, 2008, 03:12:25 PM
Post by: Firethorn on August 28, 2008, 03:44:26 PM
You cannot turn an MC at speed by manhandling the handlebars. You lean into and let the bike do the rest. Try moving the handlebars by force in a turn at speed and - well - it'll suck to be you.
In the MSF course I was taught to push the handlebar in the direction I want to turn when at speed. I want to turn right, I push a bit with my right hand, and vice versa.
Note: This is a gentle pressure.
edit: Oh yeah, and even at the highest pressure I dare, the wheel doesn't turn visibly. The bike leans in response.
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EDITED to ADD: and if you haven't already done it run - don't walk - to the nearest MC safety course and take it. It'll be the best money you ever spent. It'll be more valuable to you than carrying a gun in big city ghetto, it'll be more valuable than... well you get the idea.
I found the MSF course very good.
Post by: Monkeyleg on August 28, 2008, 05:55:32 PM
You need to know your limitations when it comes to leaning into a turn. Too little lean and you'll overshoot the curve. Too much lean and you'll find some part of your bike scraping the pavement. On mine, it's the sidestand on the left that hits pavement first, and the front muffler on the right side. I've gone through three sidestands and a couple of mufflers on my bike by grinding the metal off.
A guy I knew lent his bike to a brother in law who was learning how to ride. The BIL was a little too aggressive when trying to learn to counter steer, and wound up being impaled by a guard rail post.
The grooved pavement is something you'll get used to. Just don't try to fight it.
Post by: brimic on August 28, 2008, 06:07:32 PM
I started at 30 mph, let my hands hover above the handlebars- no problems. Repeated this excercise at 40 adn 50 mph- again no problems. Got on the on-ramp to the interstate, made a effort to relax, held the grips very lightly and kept my eyes far ahead. Took her up to 70, let go of the grips entirely, bike stayed straight as an arrow. I then tried clamping down tightly on the bars and found that the bike was tough to handle, relaxed and it was easy again. I also noticed that when I clamp down on the bars my whole body starts to tense up as well. Learned something new today. Cool.
Only problem I had was grooves cut across the road that I hit every 1/2 second or so where the pavement was slightly puckered up to the edges of the grooves, gave the bike a bucking bronco type of ride. I think the rear suspension is too mushy for my weight. Have to figure out the springs' preload adjustments I guess.
Post by: brimic on August 28, 2008, 06:23:30 PM
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Steering by pressing against the handgrip is called counter-steering. The more you press against a hand grip, the more your bike leans in the direction of the handgrip, causing the bike to turn. After reading the initial posts on this thread, I tried to turn the bike to the right or left by trying to turn the front wheel right or left; it couldn't be done.
I found out yesterday on a country road that I could wiggle the handlebars back and forth very slightly and make the bike wobble- not practical or something I want to do. I learned about countersteering awhile ago from a youtube video and practiced it on my mountain bike a lot before getting the motorcycle.
I found that if I do this unnatural act coupled with another unnatural act of keeping my head/shoulders on the inside of the headlight on a turn, turning is really easy and I find myself letting up on the handlebar pressure to stay on my side of the road.
Post by: brimic on August 28, 2008, 06:36:36 PM
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You sound like a virgin biker. Do yourself a favor and take the local motorcycle safety course. It will show you how to deal with wet pavement, gravel, left turning cagers, and how to pick up your bike when you drop it (which you will, sooner or later)
Yeppers. I'm planning on taking it next spring.
Post by: tokugawa on August 28, 2008, 07:02:16 PM
I highly recommend the book "Proficient Motorcycling" By Dave Hough", he is THE MAN when it comes to safe motorcycling.
Post by: The Annoyed Man on August 29, 2008, 05:11:11 AM
If it was me, I'd want to be sure of the bike first rather than blame myself and push it into a potentially dangerous situation. Bikes are awesome when right but very unforgiving when not. If there is something wrong with it, thinking there isn't just puts you deeper in potential danger. You trying someone elses bike is good, but I'd suggest you have someone else try yours. Perhaps a qualified mechanic.
I have fond memories of my bike riding days [wild and crazy youth] so don't get discouraged.
Post by: RichBaker on August 29, 2008, 06:51:04 PM
However, I took it out on the interstate last night when there was very sparse traffic and this scared the daylights out of me. At over 60 mph it felt like I was walking a tightrope- real unstable, I had to make constant tiny corrections for air gusts and the tiny bit of wind we had.. I had had a white knuckle ride for about 6 miles and finally exited because I had enough.
Is this something that I just have to gut out and get accustomed to or is the bike telling me that something is wrong that might kill me?
Is this something that I just have to gut out and get accustomed to or is the bike telling me that something is wrong that might kill me?
Have the steering head bearings checked...if they're too tight , it'll cause what you are describing...a slow weave requiring continual corrections.
Post by: bedlamite on August 29, 2008, 08:00:26 PM
I found out yesterday on a country road that I could wiggle the handlebars back and forth very slightly and make the bike wobble- not practical or something I want to do.
Yeah, don't do that. If it oscillates out of control, that's called a tankslapper. If you find yourself in a tankslapper, your only hope is to remain loose while opening the throttle to lighten the front end until it stops. Brakes will make it worse, and if you fight it you may just end up with a broken wrist/hand.
Countersteering works because of Gyroscopic Procession. Motion of the front wheel is 90 degrees from the applied force. Try to turn the wheel to the left by pushing the right bar forward, and the wheel tips to the right, turning the bike to the right.
Post by: Monkeyleg on August 30, 2008, 04:34:13 AM
Damn pagans......mumble mumble mumble
Post by: East Texas Clinger on September 01, 2008, 06:41:48 AM
I could no WAY recommend it as a beginner bike!
THAT said if it's mechanically sound it shouldn't try to kill you any more than any other bike.
Post by: Firethorn on September 01, 2008, 08:11:48 AM
My Boss owns an 883 Sportster and it's about the most irritating motorcycle I've ever ridden!
What's so bad about it? I'm saying this with the mind that I've actually only driven 3 styles of motorcycle - 2 of them in the MSF class, one 125cc, one 250.
Of course, the 250 didn't have double the power, as far as I could tell.
Post by: Monkeyleg on September 01, 2008, 06:23:44 PM
The American Motorcycle Association was lobbying against a certain type of asphalt patch that becomes very slippery when it heats up. I don't know if they're still lobbying on that.
Anywho, I found a community here that apparently is using that type of asphalt patch. I was pulling out of a driveway, leaned into the turn, my front wheel hit the patch, and the front wheel slid several inches before hitting dry pavement. It caught me by surprise, but I didn't drop the bike.
I ran into that stuff years ago in Utah and other western states, usually on tight curves. When I'd tell riders back here in WI about it, they didn't believe me. It's like riding on oil, which is literally what it is.
Post by: bedlamite on September 01, 2008, 09:01:50 PM
Post by: zahc on September 02, 2008, 05:27:31 AM
Post by: Intune on September 02, 2008, 05:42:14 AM
Post by: MillCreek on September 02, 2008, 07:16:10 AM
Post by: brimic on September 03, 2008, 01:37:17 PM
Monkeyleg- any advice on measuring primary chain deflection? I changed the primary/transmission lube last night and about the only think I could fit in the inspection hole that would come even close to taking a measurement was my finger which is between 3/8 and 1/2" thick- chain seems to meet specs for a cold measurement, but I measured it hot and it might be out of spec.
The inspection covers have a slot in them that looks roughly like a chevy bowtie. I went to the local dealership last night and they were out of the tool (along with everything else due the the 105th traffic). The service guy told me the tool costs around $35, but also hinted that a piece of 1/4" flat stock would fit it perfectly. A stop at Menards, $7 piece of 1/4" flat stock, and 5 minuted of hacksaw time made me the tool that I needed
Post by: Firethorn on September 04, 2008, 03:46:56 AM
My favorite is the newly paved lane running next to the 2" lower old lane. Not bad coming off of it but you had better have a serious angle on it when going back up.
Yuck. Had that recently - started out on the older, lower pavement following a pace car, then halfway through the car went up onto the new pavement. I ended up going as far to the right as I could(away from the new pavement), then essentially swerving towards the new pavement. Got about a 45 degree angle on it, bumped up, stabilized, swerved back. I wonder what the car behind me thought about that.
Post by: cassandra and sara's daddy on September 04, 2008, 11:52:20 AM
Post by: brimic on September 09, 2008, 03:57:57 AM
Post by: The Annoyed Man on September 09, 2008, 11:17:45 AM
I second or third the MSF BRC class and would plug the ERC or one of the many trackday courses to get a good grip on the mechanics of riding. A bike wants you to do things that are counter intuitive to behave itself at the limits. I would also recommend buying the stickiest rubber you can get, I am a big fan of traction over tire mileage. By the way would you be interested in some Buell cams and heads?