Author Topic: Without objective truth, the most powerful opinion wins.  (Read 8733 times)

BrokenPaw

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Re: Without objective truth, the most powerful opinion wins.
« Reply #25 on: February 11, 2009, 01:21:14 PM »
Yeah, I observe how the world became a wonderful, peachy place since we made objective truth unpopular.

How much more freedom we have... wait, we actually don't.

Here's an objective truth for you:

Objective truth is not an all-or-nothing proposition.

Some things are demonstrably objectively true.

Some things are matters either of opinion or of faith (sometimes both).

A person who rejects something that is demonstrably an objective truth is a fool.

A person who attempts to treat those things that are not demonstrable as objective truths as if they were (or, worse, attempts to require others to treat them as such) lies somewhere on the spectrum that leads from naive to boorish.

The mistake that people who insist that there are no objective truths make is to over-reach themselves; not all things are subjective.  Some things are objectively true or false.

The mistake people who insist that there is an objective truth make is to over-reach themselves; not all things are objectively true or false.  Some things are subjective.

Seek out wisdom in books, rare manuscripts, and cryptic poems if you will, but seek it also in simple stones and fragile herbs and in the cries of wild birds. Listen to the song of the wind and the roar of water if you would discover magic, for it is here that the old secrets are still preserved.

makattak

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Re: Without objective truth, the most powerful opinion wins.
« Reply #26 on: February 11, 2009, 01:28:29 PM »
Here's an objective truth for you:

Objective truth is not an all-or-nothing proposition.

Some things are demonstrably objectively true.

Some things are matters either of opinion or of faith (sometimes both).

A person who rejects something that is demonstrably an objective truth is a fool.

A person who attempts to treat those things that are not demonstrable as objective truths as if they were (or, worse, attempts to require others to treat them as such) lies somewhere on the spectrum that leads from naive to boorish.

The mistake that people who insist that there are no objective truths make is to over-reach themselves; not all things are subjective.  Some things are objectively true or false.

The mistake people who insist that there is an objective truth make is to over-reach themselves; not all things are objectively true or false.  Some things are subjective.



True, some things are subjective.

Unfortunately, we've expanded that subjectivity into areas that are not.

Also, simply because something is not "demonstrably" true does not make it false. It simply means we lack the ability to demonstrate it.

This is the problem: too many people believe that because something is not demonstrably (to their satisfaction) true, they may ignore it.

This is the problem of subjectivism- people now believe that they can do what they wish without consequence.

Also, unfortunately (for them), there are laws that are as true as gravity but not as obvious that people now ignore, to their own detriment.
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

Perd Hapley

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Re: Without objective truth, the most powerful opinion wins.
« Reply #27 on: February 11, 2009, 01:35:48 PM »
In my subjective judgement, I find little room for improvement on the last two posts. 
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BrokenPaw

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Re: Without objective truth, the most powerful opinion wins.
« Reply #28 on: February 11, 2009, 01:45:35 PM »
Quote
Unfortunately, we've expanded that subjectivity into areas that are not.

That's the "overreaching" part I was talking about.  :)

On the other paw, there are people who attempt to expand objectivity in to areas that are not.

It is true that just because something cannot be demonstrated to be objectively true, it does not make it false.  However, if it cannot be demonstrated, then how can it be called objectively true?  And if it is not objectively true, then why are others to be expected or required to accept it as true?

I assert that an objective truth can be demonstrated, and that until it can be, there is enough doubt as to its certainty that it qualifies as subjective.  I invite examples to prove this assertion false.

-BP
Seek out wisdom in books, rare manuscripts, and cryptic poems if you will, but seek it also in simple stones and fragile herbs and in the cries of wild birds. Listen to the song of the wind and the roar of water if you would discover magic, for it is here that the old secrets are still preserved.

makattak

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Re: Without objective truth, the most powerful opinion wins.
« Reply #29 on: February 11, 2009, 01:50:31 PM »
That's the "overreaching" part I was talking about.  :)

On the other paw, there are people who attempt to expand objectivity in to areas that are not.

It is true that just because something cannot be demonstrated to be objectively true, it does not make it false.  However, if it cannot be demonstrated, then how can it be called objectively true?  And if it is not objectively true, then why are others to be expected or required to accept it as true?

I assert that an objective truth can be demonstrated, and that until it can be, there is enough doubt as to its certainty that it qualifies as subjective.  I invite examples to prove this assertion false.

-BP

A woman's body is designed to give birth to a child.

A mother's mind is designed to love that child.

The first is demonstrable according to our capabilities. The second is not.

I hold that both are equally true. Both have exceptions, but those exceptions are evidence of a flaw in the specific mind or body, not that the statement is false.
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Without objective truth, the most powerful opinion wins.
« Reply #30 on: February 11, 2009, 02:01:03 PM »
The question then becomes one of certainty and proof.  Can you be certain of something without empirical proof?  Does there need to be proof in order for something to be true? 

Is the truth the truth all on its own?  Or does the truth only become true after someone has proven it?

In my experience, those who hold to the "no objective truths" mindset tend to do so because they don't want to be bound by limitations that exist in reality.  They don't want to have to tailor their beliefs according to the constraints of reality, they want reality to be mutable according to their beliefs.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2009, 02:04:43 PM by Headless Thompson Gunner »

MicroBalrog

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Re: Without objective truth, the most powerful opinion wins.
« Reply #31 on: February 11, 2009, 02:03:00 PM »
Can I prove that I have a moral right to remain alive, to not be murdered?

No. And yet it seems evident that murder is evil. There's a reason why they used the phrase 'we hold these truths self-evident'.
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Rudy Kohn

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Re: Without objective truth, the most powerful opinion wins.
« Reply #32 on: February 11, 2009, 02:43:24 PM »
Cool discussion  =)

What is the dividing line between statements we can call objectively true or false, and statements which are subjective?

I posit, as a start, that we might be able to draw a dividing line at statements which say something about intention.
Now, I haven't thought about this too intensely yet, but, at first glance, it seems like statements that say nothing about intentions can be provably true or false, based on the accepted definitions of terms used in the statement.

"The sky is blue" (define: sky, blue)
"Abraham Lincoln was the 16th President of the U.S."  (who am I referring to, what does 16th mean, what is the President of the U.S.)

On the other hand, "Abraham Lincoln wanted to free the slaves" is an unprovable statement--you can find evidence to support arguments, but--and here's the kicker--even if all the evidence points to Ol' Abe wanting to free the slaves, we can't get inside his head to know.

What other guidelines can be drawn?

As MicroBalrog pointed out, how do we classify statements as axiomatic?

I read somewhere that a good way to define an axiomatic statement is "a statement which cannot be opposed without implicitly relying on it."

e.g.  you need to be alive (and allowed to live) to assert that one has no right to life.

On the other hand, "A man has the right to the fruit of his labor" is not axiomatic, as I need not possess any material goods to posit that no one has a right to them.

Werewolf

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Re: Without objective truth, the most powerful opinion wins.
« Reply #33 on: February 11, 2009, 02:51:15 PM »
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Rudy Kohn

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Re: Without objective truth, the most powerful opinion wins.
« Reply #34 on: February 11, 2009, 03:12:30 PM »
I love Dawn of the Dead!  =D

BrokenPaw

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Re: Without objective truth, the most powerful opinion wins.
« Reply #35 on: February 11, 2009, 03:47:47 PM »
A woman's body is designed to give birth to a child.
A mother's mind is designed to love that child.

Both of those statements rely upon the premise that a woman's body or mind was designed, which premise is itself a position some put forward as objective truth and some do not accept as objective, because intelligent design is not something that has yet been objectively proven.

Not arguing what you've said; just pointing out how easy it is to let assumptions of objectivity creep in.

-BP
Seek out wisdom in books, rare manuscripts, and cryptic poems if you will, but seek it also in simple stones and fragile herbs and in the cries of wild birds. Listen to the song of the wind and the roar of water if you would discover magic, for it is here that the old secrets are still preserved.

Strings

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Re: Without objective truth, the most powerful opinion wins.
« Reply #36 on: February 11, 2009, 04:38:44 PM »
I object!!!
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makattak

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Re: Without objective truth, the most powerful opinion wins.
« Reply #37 on: February 11, 2009, 04:47:12 PM »
Both of those statements rely upon the premise that a woman's body or mind was designed, which premise is itself a position some put forward as objective truth and some do not accept as objective, because intelligent design is not something that has yet been objectively proven.

Not arguing what you've said; just pointing out how easy it is to let assumptions of objectivity creep in.

-BP

I was aware as I was typing that I used the word designed. I decided against waffling into the "designed, evolved, was created by the flying spaghetti monster" part to make as positive statement a possible.

However, as you guessed, my point was as to the nature of the female body and female mind, not necessarily as to its origin.
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Without objective truth, the most powerful opinion wins.
« Reply #38 on: February 11, 2009, 04:50:56 PM »
Both of those statements rely upon the premise that a woman's body or mind was designed, which premise is itself a position some put forward as objective truth and some do not accept as objective, because intelligent design is not something that has yet been objectively proven.

Not arguing what you've said; just pointing out how easy it is to let assumptions of objectivity creep in.

-BP
I suppose it depends on how you define "design", but I don't think there's anything that requires a design to be deliberate.  The design as it exists could have come about through no intentional or deliberate effort at all.  It still has a particular configuration and' manner of operation, and as such, it has a design.

I think mak was speaking more to the configuration and manner of operation of the female body when he spoke of its design, not the manner of its creation.

makattak

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Re: Without objective truth, the most powerful opinion wins.
« Reply #39 on: February 11, 2009, 04:56:44 PM »
I suppose it depends on how you define "design", but I don't think there's anything that requires a design to be deliberate.  The design as it exists could have come about through no intentional or deliberate effort at all.  It still has a particular configuration and' manner of operation, and as such, it has a design.

I think mak was speaking more to the configuration and manner of operation of the female body when he spoke of its design, not the manner of its creation.


About 3 minutes late, but my point exactly. ;)
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Without objective truth, the most powerful opinion wins.
« Reply #40 on: February 11, 2009, 04:57:31 PM »
I'm always late.  C'est la vie.

BrokenPaw

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Re: Without objective truth, the most powerful opinion wins.
« Reply #41 on: February 11, 2009, 04:58:11 PM »
I suppose it depends on how you define "design", but I don't think there's anything that requires a design to be deliberate.  The design as it exists could have come about through no intentional or deliberate effort at all.  It still has a particular configuration and' manner of operation, and as such, it has a design.

I think mak was speaking more to the configuration and manner of operation of the female body when he spoke of its design, not the manner of its creation.

Fair enough; mak's already clarified that he wasn't necessarily speaking about intelligent design.  

That's why I wasn't taking issue with the statements, as much as just pointing out how they could be interpreted to imply a certain presupposition.

I think he and I were heatedly agreeing with one another.  ;)

-BP
Seek out wisdom in books, rare manuscripts, and cryptic poems if you will, but seek it also in simple stones and fragile herbs and in the cries of wild birds. Listen to the song of the wind and the roar of water if you would discover magic, for it is here that the old secrets are still preserved.

De Selby

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Re: Without objective truth, the most powerful opinion wins.
« Reply #42 on: February 12, 2009, 06:50:15 AM »
The problem is the concept behind "objective truth" in the first place:  What exactly does it mean to say that something is "objectively true"? 

Certainly it does not mean that you've verified it by some means independent of your mind....if that were the case, you couldn't possibly "know" the verification of that truth, because to know something is by definition to have it within your mind.

That's the crux of the problem and the reason why the concept of "objective truth" has been widely recognised in philosophy as incoherent:  it's obviously impossible to know anything outside of well...what you know.  And everything you know is entirely (by definition-there is no such thing as knowing that is not subjective; if it weren't in your mind, it wouldn't make sense to say you know it) within your mind.  Included in that set of things in your mind is the supposed "objective truth", which is really just a label for yet another of those things that is, like all things known, entirely within the mind and therefore subjective by definition.

This was one of the great contributions that the mathematical types in philosophy made-being analytical, they weren't hung up on flowery ideas about "forms" and "truths", and they were able to simply read what Kant wrote and draw the obvious conclusions.

Micro has touched on where the American pragmatists went with this-they recognised that "objective truth" was nonsense, and given that, they decided that "truth" was roughly whatever got you the results you were looking for, leaving aside that sticky debate about just what "truth" actually is in substance.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Without objective truth, the most powerful opinion wins.
« Reply #43 on: February 12, 2009, 07:59:05 AM »
You do realize that I believe that the pragmatists were wrong, yes?
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Werewolf

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Re: Without objective truth, the most powerful opinion wins.
« Reply #44 on: February 12, 2009, 12:29:06 PM »
All this talk about objective truth and what it is...

Can you say?

YOU'RE ALL OVER THINKING THIS!

It is repeatedly demonstratable that anywhere you go on the planet at sea level (added the sea level qualifier just for you sea lawyers) that the air there will be made up of Oxygen, Nitrogen, Carbon Dioxide and a few other trace gases. On earth that is an objective truth.

If one takes 2 (a symbol used to represent a quantity) sticks and puts them on the ground and then take 3 sticks and puts them next to the two on the ground that one will now have 5 sticks in close proximity to each other. That is demonstrably true and will be each and every time one does it no matter who it is or where they do it. Objective truth.

It is demonstrably true from reading SS' posts here on APS that his political leanings are left of center. Objective truth.

Why is this concept of objective truth so hard for some to grasp? Stop over thinking this.

Damned Philosophers!

And to think that there are actually people who get paid to sit around and argue this kind of nonsense (good job if you can get it I suppose). What a waste of oxygen and bandwidth.
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Rudy Kohn

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Re: Without objective truth, the most powerful opinion wins.
« Reply #45 on: February 12, 2009, 02:13:49 PM »
I dunno, I think it's kinda fun to talk about and think about these kinds of things.  I guess I don't really believe there's such a thing as "over thinking."  That's why I was asking questions more along the lines of what kinds of things can we classify as objective--since one can easily make examples of objectively true things, objective truth must exist--however, making lists (never exhaustive) of objective truths doesn't tell us what kinds of things can or can't be objectively true.  It can help, but it doesn't provide an answer.

Not all philosophers get their kicks discussing nonsense, but sometimes it is necessary to deal with nonsense while looking for something that makes sense.

MicroBalrog

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Re: Without objective truth, the most powerful opinion wins.
« Reply #46 on: February 12, 2009, 02:30:26 PM »
Quote
It is demonstrably true from reading SS' posts here on APS that his political leanings are left of center. Objective truth.

Wrong, actually. SS is to the right win of most members here.
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Balog

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Re: Without objective truth, the most powerful opinion wins.
« Reply #47 on: February 12, 2009, 02:36:57 PM »
Wrong, actually. SS is to the right win of most members here.

What do you base that on? His defense of terrorists, or his love of socialized medicine? Never seen him post much political stuff other than that. I suppose socially he's kinda conservative, in a "where's your burkha, woman!" kind of way.....
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Without objective truth, the most powerful opinion wins.
« Reply #48 on: February 12, 2009, 02:38:36 PM »
What do you base that on? His defense of terrorists, or his love of socialized medicine? Never seen him post much political stuff other than that. I suppose socially he's kinda conservative, in a "where's your burkha, woman!" kind of way.....

SS doesn't defend terrorists, he defends (as I do) terrorist suspects.

As far as I know from talking to him, he holds libertarian political views on most issues. I don't really view The War on Terror as such a huge issue anyway.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

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