Author Topic: Bill Cosby trial deadlocked  (Read 5534 times)

Hawkmoon

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Re: Bill Cosby trial deadlocked
« Reply #25 on: June 18, 2017, 10:07:24 PM »

2. This happened a very long time ago, we have statutes of limitations for a reason. It can be very difficult to have a fair trial on either side after such a long time passes. This gets back to number one. The accuser had a choice all those years ago to have a criminal charge filed or pursue a civil case. I don't believe you should do one and then convert to the other years and years later. Some states are trying to change the statute of limitations on these types of crimes or have already. I believe that is also an issue for some of the same reasons. Evidence may no longer be available and memories are not infallible. Also potential victims do have a responsibility to pursue changes within a reasonable period of time. It can create doubt purely on them waitingon whether there was a crime at that moment or they decided maybe they felt different years later.


The statute of limitations is why the other 59 women Cosby is accused of raping (under similar circumstances) aren't also co-complainants.

This accuser DID make her complaint a number of years ago, and the DA at the time chose not to prosecute. Then a judge unsealed the contents of Cosby's deposition and this DA read it and said "Holy mackerel!"
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RevDisk

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Re: Bill Cosby trial deadlocked
« Reply #26 on: June 19, 2017, 12:08:39 PM »
I have to disagree, Terry. Both sides are entitled to a verdict, and a hung jury does not produce a verdict. Your argument applies to the other side, as well: If the defense had a strong defense, they should be able to convince all 12 jurors to vote for Not Guilty. The standard for a criminal trial is "beyond reasonable doubt." If the jury is hung, that means the defense team couldn't even persuade all the jurors that there was reasonable doubt.

This would be reasonable. Except in the United States, folks are supposed to be innocent until proven guilty. Sadly we've long since moved away from that.
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T.O.M.

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Re: Bill Cosby trial deadlocked
« Reply #27 on: June 19, 2017, 12:42:05 PM »
Anyone seen a reference to the jury breakdown?  When I was prosecuting, the most important factor in determining retrial or not was that breakdown.  If it was close to conviction, you try again.  Half or less for conviction, call it done.  I had one hung jury in my career.  It was 11-1 for conviction.  A bunch of the 11 sought me out to tell me the one for acquittal made a point of saying she would never vote for conviction, as it was God's place to judge, not a human's.  Convicted the second time around rather quickly. 
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230RN

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Re: Bill Cosby trial deadlocked
« Reply #28 on: June 19, 2017, 01:18:23 PM »
Shouldn't something like that have come out in voyer dear?

Seems to me that was an outlier case anyhow where either the Prosecutor did not do his job in jury-selection or the prospective juror lied.

I reiterate:

Quote
All the defense has to do is present enough evidence to create reasonable doubt about guilt.

In the case of a hung jury, the defense obviously has done so.

I might add here as a throwaway concept, that the "statistics" of the jury split does not matter --reasonable doubt has been created.   Thus: Innocent.

(I'm breaking my self-imposed rule about being done with this one.)
« Last Edit: June 19, 2017, 01:58:56 PM by 230RN »
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dogmush

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Re: Bill Cosby trial deadlocked
« Reply #29 on: June 19, 2017, 02:11:16 PM »
I would argue that some people are unreasonable, and those people could be jurors.  So just because 1 person had a doubt, it doesn't follow that reasonable doubt exists.

See Chris's example.  Or Google Dave Chapelle's skit on the R. Kelly trial.

T.O.M.

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Re: Bill Cosby trial deadlocked
« Reply #30 on: June 19, 2017, 03:13:12 PM »
In my case, should I have done a better job in voire dire to dig the information out of the juror who would not vote guilty?  Maybe.  Don't know that I would have ever known to ask a potential juror if she believed that the job of rendering judgment was solely within God's province, or if we mere mortals were allowed to do such things... Frankly, I don't know that any judge I've been before would allow me to ask religious based questions out of respect for the rights (and privacy) or potential jurors.

Here's the thing with a hung jury.  When the judge gets wind of the jury being hung up, they will call the jury in and give them an instruction called the Allen charge.  Basically it's when a judge encourages a jury to reach a verdict.  It ranges from very mild encouragement, to the one's trial lawyers call a "dynamite charge" in which a judge will essentially order the jury to make a decision (not in so many words, but in tone of voice).  If after the Allen charge a jury is still hung, as a prosecutor I would absolutely want to know the number of jurors each way, and to talk to the jurors if possible.  It would let me know (as in my case) if it was one person holding up the verdict for illogical reasons, if it was close, or if it was not even close.  Just as in my case where it was 11-1 for conviction, I've also seen situations where it was 9-3 or 10-2 for acquittal.  If you're the prosecutor and hear that, you damn well better recognize that you're done.

An aside, the defendant in my case sued me from prison for $115,000,000 for wrongful prosecution.  I was able to get the case thrown out, but the filing of the suit cost my wife and I our first choice of houses because the bank withdrew approval for the mortgage when they learned about the lawsuit.  He refiled in federal court, alleging a civil rights violation based on racial discrimination.  He lost that one as well because the victim of the burglary was also an African American.
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MikeB

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Re: Bill Cosby trial deadlocked
« Reply #31 on: June 19, 2017, 07:45:01 PM »
The statute of limitations is why the other 59 women Cosby is accused of raping (under similar circumstances) aren't also co-complainants.

This accuser DID make her complaint a number of years ago, and the DA at the time chose not to prosecute. Then a judge unsealed the contents of Cosby's deposition and this DA read it and said "Holy mackerel!"

Yeah no. That isn't quite an accurate timeline of events. Here is one that is that more accurately depicts the events.

http://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/bill-cosby-trial-complete-timeline-happened-2004/story?id=47799458

I still think you can't keep trying to bring charges against someone decades after things happen without concrete evidence. DAs all the time decide not to press charges for various reasons. You will note it wasn't the same DA that declined to press charges as indicated in your reply and the new DA was using this as a political stunt to get elected; it was big news around here at the time, it was in his elect me statements and ads.

http://www.montgomerynews.com/thecolonial/news/election-steele-defeats-castor-in-montco-da-race/article_024fb6b1-caa5-5d06-87e2-d8633eeb2bde.html

If some of those 59 women had been more proactive in pressing charges then maybe we wouldn't have 59. I'm not blaming them, but at the same time we can't have a judicial system that suddenly allows decades old charges to be filed for which there can likely be no physical evidence and it comes down to he said she said. If we do people would be able to criminally charge people of things on a whim at most any time. While in the court of public opinion that 59 makes a difference under our justice system it doesn't. Whether it should or not I suppose is debatable, but that's why they couldn't all testify in this case.





T.O.M.

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Re: Bill Cosby trial deadlocked
« Reply #32 on: June 19, 2017, 08:40:20 PM »
Wanna know who to blame for old cases coming up mich later?  The legislature.  A lot of states took the statute of limitations in sex cases and changed it from 5-10 years to 20 years. Did the same for some other high level felonies.  Thats why you're seeing such old cases coming to court.
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230RN

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Re: Bill Cosby trial deadlocked
« Reply #33 on: June 20, 2017, 07:07:01 AM »
In my case, should I have done a better job in voire dire to dig the information out of the juror who would not vote guilty?  Maybe.  Don't know that I would have ever known to ask a potential juror if she believed that the job of rendering judgment was solely within God's province, or if we mere mortals were allowed to do such things... Frankly, I don't know that any judge I've been before would allow me to ask religious based questions out of respect for the rights (and privacy) or potential jurors.

Oh, boy, I wish  you'd IDed yourself as being the Prosecutor involved; I wouldn't have been so sharp-cornered about it.  I apologize.

However, yours still seems to be an outlying case.  I thought it was routine for someone, Judge or the attorneys, to ask if there was any reason the prospective juror could not render a fair opinion under the law --without delving into religious aspects.  In that case, I would put the shortfall on the juror.  

Simply, if she had been asked that, she would have been lying if she said no. If she had told the truth ("yes"), she would have been rejected.   I did offer this as a possibility in my previous post.  (I have a funny story about that if anyone's interested.)

Quote
Here's the thing with a hung jury.  When the judge gets wind of the jury being hung up, they will call the jury in and give them an instruction called the Allen charge.  Basically it's when a judge encourages a jury to reach a verdict.  It ranges from very mild encouragement, to the one's trial lawyers call a "dynamite charge" in which a judge will essentially order the jury to make a decision (not in so many words, but in tone of voice).  If after the Allen charge a jury is still hung, as a prosecutor I would absolutely want to know the number of jurors each way, and to talk to the jurors if possible.  It would let me know (as in my case) if it was one person holding up the verdict for illogical reasons, if it was close, or if it was not even close.  Just as in my case where it was 11-1 for conviction, I've also seen situations where it was 9-3 or 10-2 for acquittal.  If you're the prosecutor and hear that, you damn well better recognize that you're done.

I don't know what to say about that.  Under my theory of "a hung jury constitutes reasonable doubt on the face of it," I don't think juries should be polled at all.  After all, their deliberations are assumed to be secret, are they not?  If so, then no post-deliberation questions should be asked of any of them... nor should they be allowed to discuss their decision-making process after the fact...  "book deals" or no "book deals."

The case you iterated still seems to be an outlier to me, and under the notion that it's better for ten guilty to go free than one innocent to be punished, that should have been it, period, in the first trial, and "The defendant is free to go."

Yes, he can "do it again," if released, but the hope is that if he is a repeater, sooner or later he will be caught again and prosecuted again, hopefully with stronger "12 to 0" evidence.

Quote
An aside, the defendant in my case sued me from prison for $115,000,000 for wrongful prosecution.  I was able to get the case thrown out, but the filing of the suit cost my wife and I our first choice of houses because the bank withdrew approval for the mortgage when they learned about the lawsuit.  He refiled in federal court, alleging a civil rights violation based on racial discrimination.  He lost that one as well because the victim of the burglary was also an African American.

I'm really sorry to hear that, and I hate to be a prick about it, but that would not have happened if he had been released under the first (hung) jury's decision --however bad it would have been under some kind of omniscient "Cosmic Supervision."

I remain intransigent about my opinion that hung juries are automatically "not guilty" decisions.... again, since "reasonable doubt" has obviously been achieved by the defense.

Terry, 230RN
« Last Edit: June 20, 2017, 07:53:27 AM by 230RN »
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T.O.M.

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Re: Bill Cosby trial deadlocked
« Reply #34 on: June 20, 2017, 01:57:46 PM »
No problems.  I was a young prosecutor. Never thought to ask a question like that in voire dire.  Learned that lesson, and didn't make that mistake again.  Two mistakes I made that I still recall.  Learned from them both.

Anyways, to be clear, the only person who has a right to poll a jury is the defendant after a guilty verdict.  The defendant has the right to hear each juror say guilty after the verdict is announced.  Seen it happen, especially in capital cases.  Guess the hope is that someone will change their mind when they have to stand and say it.  Never seen that happen, but I guess that's the vote.

What I'm referring to is an informal polling.  After a verdict is announced, attorneys will routinely hang out by the jury room to see if any of the jurors will talk about the case.  First, it's the best source of feedback for how you did in the case.  Gotta see what works and what didn't work so you can improve.  With a hung jury, you can ask the jurors how close the vote was to see if you should try again.  I found jurors often wanted to talk.  Many had questions about the case, wanting to understand rulings on issues.  A lot of times, they'll have questions seeking the whole story, not just what the rules of evidence let them hear.  That is what I meant by polling.  And, in a high profile case like Cosby, I can guarantee that a few of the jurors will want to talk, and will also want to gain their fame and do TV interviews and such.  It will be interesting to hear what they say...
« Last Edit: June 20, 2017, 03:40:58 PM by Chris »
No, I'm not mtnbkr.  ;)

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Hawkmoon

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Re: Bill Cosby trial deadlocked
« Reply #35 on: June 20, 2017, 02:07:22 PM »
So far, one alternate has stated that he would have voted to convict.

I would like to know the basic breakdown of the jury votes. I doubt it will come out, but I'd also like to know the votes by color of juror. The jury included both Blacks and Whites, and it's quite possible that there was at least one Black juror who simply wasn't going to vote to convict a black man of anything in a white men's court.
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MechAg94

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Re: Bill Cosby trial deadlocked
« Reply #36 on: June 20, 2017, 03:06:58 PM »
No problems.  I was a young prosecutor. Never thought to ask a question like that in voire dire.  Learned that lesson, and didn't make that mistake again.  One mistakes I made that I still recall.  learned from them both.

Anyways, to be clear, the only person who has a right to poll a jury is the defendant after a guilty verdict.  The defendant has the right to hear each juror say guilty after the verdict is announced.  Seen it happen, especially in capital cases.  Guess the hope is that someone will change their mind when they have to stand and say it.  Never seen that happen, but I guess that's the vote.

What I'm referring to is an informal polling.  After a verdict is announced, attorneys will routinely hang out by the jury room to see if any of the jurors will talk about the case.  First, it's the best source of feedback for how you did in the case.  Gotta see what works and what didn't work so you can improve.  With a hung jury, you can ask the jurors how close the vote was to see if you should try again.  I found jurors often wanted to talk.  Many had questions about the case, wanting to understand rulings on issues.  A lot of times, they'll have questions seeking the whole story, not just what the rules of evidence let them hear.  That is what I meant by polling.  And, in a high profile case like Cosby, I can guarantee that a few of the jurors will want to talk, and will also want to gain their fame and do TV interviews and such.  It will be interesting to hear what they say...
The one murder case I sat on, the defense attorney made all jury members say they were for a guilty verdict.  I wasn't one of the final converts so it was no issue for me.  This was a case where the guy essentially gave a recorded confession to police.  Without that, there would have been no trial.  Only other thing pointing to him was a prostitute who fingered him. 

There was discussion with the prosecutor afterward.  Some of us stayed to hear the sentencing also and the defense attorney talked to us after that.  The defense attorney's line was just a big guilt trip so I didn't stick around long for that. 
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zxcvbob

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Re: Bill Cosby trial deadlocked
« Reply #37 on: June 20, 2017, 03:12:10 PM »
The one murder case I sat on, the defense attorney made all jury members say they were for a guilty verdict.  I wasn't one of the final converts so it was no issue for me.  This was a case where the guy essentially gave a recorded confession to police.  Without that, there would have been no trial.  Only other thing pointing to him was a prostitute who fingered him. 

There was discussion with the prosecutor afterward.  Some of us stayed to hear the sentencing also and the defense attorney talked to us after that.  The defense attorney's line was just a big guilt trip so I didn't stick around long for that. 

Phrasing!
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Fly320s

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Re: Bill Cosby trial deadlocked
« Reply #38 on: June 20, 2017, 03:21:23 PM »
Islamic sex dolls.  Do they blow themselves up?

230RN

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Re: Bill Cosby trial deadlocked
« Reply #39 on: June 20, 2017, 07:20:32 PM »
"Anyways, to be clear, the only person who has a right to poll a jury is the defendant after a guilty verdict."

Good point, I'll yield on that one.

The funny story I mentioned involved my getting rear-ended at a stop sign and the guy wanted to fight his ticket on the grounds that I had unexpectedly stopped twice at the sign for another oncoming vehicle, and he didn't see me stop the second time.

Short version is that when the group of potential jurors were asked if there was any reason they couldn't render a fair verdict, one guy stood up and said he was a dispatcher for Public Service Company (the local power company at the time) which always had a "million" trucks running around "everywhere."

He said, rather emphatically, even to pounding his fist into his other hand, that "we constantly drum it into the drivers'  heads that there is no excuse for a rear end accident."

A fist-pound for each word from "no" to "accident."

Even the Judge cracked a little grin.

Excused from duty for that trial.

The plaintiff (me*) won.

Terry, 230RN

*Actually, my insurance company lawyer won, since I had subordinated my legal rights in the matter to my insurance company.  I was just a witness for the plaintiff.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2017, 07:51:23 PM by 230RN »
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MechAg94

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Re: Bill Cosby trial deadlocked
« Reply #40 on: June 20, 2017, 08:05:36 PM »
Phrasing!
For once it wasn't me that was in the gutter.   :angel:  I thought I was borrowing from some gangster movie or something (and not a porn parody).

I will be back in there shortly I am sure.  
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MechAg94

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Re: Bill Cosby trial deadlocked
« Reply #41 on: June 20, 2017, 08:28:58 PM »
I find it interesting that people hearing about cases in the media tend to believe the accusers if there are multiple people making accusations no matter if they are credible or not.  They tend to automatically assume guilt.  I get the impression that all a lawyer really needs to do is dig up a couple dozen people prepared to lie and he can sue or convict anyone.  On the other side of that, I think a number of the death penalty cases I have heard about where DNA evidence is clearing people seem to have originally involved mistaken witness testimony.  Not quite the same thing, but it came to mind since he-said/she-said type cases with little or no physical evidence came up earlier.  There are many cases of people lying or who are just wrong in their recollection of events.  If there is no evidence or information backing up the claim, I think I would find it difficult to convict someone.  



A case I did NOT get picked for a few years ago apparently involved inappropriate touching of a minor.  The minor being a nearly adult teenager on a date with a 19 or 20 year old man.  After a quiet argument between the lawyers and judge up front, the embarrassed looking judge restated the law:  if the teenage girl grabs the hand of the man and puts it on her private areas, it is not illegal, but if she removes her hand and he does not immediately remove his hand, it becomes illegal.  I don't know anything more about the case, I was just glad I didn't get picked for the jury.  
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230RN

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Re: Bill Cosby trial deadlocked
« Reply #42 on: June 21, 2017, 11:48:18 AM »
^ "I find it interesting that people hearing about cases in the media tend to believe the accusers if there are multiple people making accusations no matter if they are credible or not.  They tend to automatically assume guilt. "

I've noticed that a lot with our radical groups.

Bullhorns matter.

Terry, 230RN
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MechAg94

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Re: Bill Cosby trial deadlocked
« Reply #43 on: June 21, 2017, 03:07:28 PM »
A while back I heard the lawyer for the woman accuser has a history of cases like this which is one of the reasons I have tried to avoid assuming anything about it. 
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Hawkmoon

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Re: Bill Cosby trial deadlocked
« Reply #44 on: June 21, 2017, 05:56:46 PM »
A while back I heard the lawyer for the woman accuser has a history of cases like this which is one of the reasons I have tried to avoid assuming anything about it. 

That's certainly a bad sign. I'm sure if I needed to file a lawsuit over something involving involuntary sexual abuse I would probably seek out an attorney with a history of lawsuits regarding copyright infringement. Wouldn't you?
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Scout26

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Re: Bill Cosby trial deadlocked
« Reply #45 on: June 21, 2017, 07:29:20 PM »
Yep, Gloria Allred.  Her specialty seems to be women with made-up stories of sexual assault (like some Trump accusers back during the campaign.  IIRC, all those suits have been dropped.)
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Re: Bill Cosby trial deadlocked
« Reply #46 on: June 22, 2017, 09:40:38 AM »
Heard this morning on the radio that the vote was 10-2 for conviction.  If I was prosecuting, that would likely be close enough for me to try again.
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Hawkmoon

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Re: Bill Cosby trial deadlocked
« Reply #47 on: June 22, 2017, 01:24:11 PM »
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