Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: T.O.M. on April 09, 2021, 05:19:04 PM
-
Forget the politics for a minute, and ignore the likely doom to the industry the the Federal protections are eliminated. Say they put a 10 round limit back on magazines. What do you think will happen in terms of the handgun industry. Last time, we saw smaller handguns based around 10 round magazines (Glock 26/27), and there was more focus on the .40 and .45 in larger handguns.
My thoughts: with the improvement in 9mm ammo, we can expect more handguns comparable to the SIG P365 and Smith Shield, designed around the 10 round magazines. MID sized and full sized pistols in .40 and .45 built around 10 round mags will be built, and perhaps increased interest in the 1911, especially with rails, optics, etc. Also, maybe a renewed interest in revolvers, especially th 7-8 round .357 magnum models.
Thoughts?
-
Plus probably even more tiny .380 pistols.
-
I'll say some renewed interest in 1911s, but also people still buying full-sized pistols, but living with the reduced capacity. Seems to me the mid-sized and micro market has been pretty saturated, even in the time of 19 round full-sized pistols.
I have mid and micro guns. I like them ands shoot them. For carry though, I only use them when I really need to conceal, or for shorts and tshirt weather. Otherwise, I still prefer a full, or at least Commander sized gun for carry. My P365 holds more rounds than my 1911 Commander, but I still carry the 1911 more.
I will say that if Idaho doesn't tell the feds to F off and I have to carry 10 rounds or less in state, I probably wouldn't carry my FNX45 as much. One of the big draws of that one is the 15 rounds of .45ACP. If I'm down to ten, I might as well carry the 1911 with an 8 round Wilson and one in the pipe.
-
Forget the politics for a minute, and ignore the likely doom to the industry the the Federal protections are eliminated. Say they put a 10 round limit back on magazines. What do you think will happen in terms of the handgun industry. Last time, we saw smaller handguns based around 10 round magazines (Glock 26/27), and there was more focus on the .40 and .45 in larger handguns.
My thoughts: with the improvement in 9mm ammo, we can expect more handguns comparable to the SIG P365 and Smith Shield, designed around the 10 round magazines. MID sized and full sized pistols in .40 and .45 built around 10 round mags will be built, and perhaps increased interest in the 1911, especially with rails, optics, etc. Also, maybe a renewed interest in revolvers, especially th 7-8 round .357 magnum models.
Thoughts?
Depends on what we get in the way of possible future restrictions. 10 was the mag limit last time. Suppose it's less. 8? 7? 6? I might end up carrying my XDS in .45, with its 5 round short mags. Is the old stuff going to be grandfathered in, or not? Fixed mags OK, but detachable not? Military issue cartridges restricted, like in some other countries?
FWIW, and maybe it's just the silo of stuff I pay attention to, but I am seeing more interest in revolvers lately. "AFT" manufacturing and sales stats would tell the tale on that.
Shooters will try to optimize the package. We learned to live with and work around a lot of annoyances, last time around.
-
Jim Crow laws on steroids.
The first NFA was a Jim Crow law. No reason for the demicrats to stop.
-
Citizens have a duty to violate unconstitutional laws.
-
Citizens have a duty to violate unconstitutional laws.
They love to violate the hell out of whatever laws they want with no consequences. Sanctuary cities for illegals, throwing criminals out on the streets, riot, burn loot and murder for months on end...time for us to do the same.
-
Didn't the folks up in Canada just flat out ignore some over the top restrictive gun law (registration?) and the law just quietly went away some years later?
-
So much for setting aside the politics/revolt aspects. I was curious as to what the firearms industry might do if a 10 round cap on firearms was again put in place.
Ben, kind of like you, I'll likely leave my existing high cap handguns at home, and stick with my single stack guns for edc. I honestly prefer my single stacks for carry. Thinner pistols, thinner reloads, etc. I'm not a fan of the sub compact handguns. I appreciate the engineering, but just don't shoot them well. And I might go retro, meaning pull out my revolvers for EDC.
-
So much for setting aside the politics/revolt aspects. I was curious as to what the firearms industry might do if a 10 round cap on firearms was again put in place.
Ben, kind of like you, I'll likely leave my existing high cap handguns at home, and stick with my single stack guns for edc. I honestly prefer my single stacks for carry. Thinner pistols, thinner reloads, etc. I'm not a fan of the sub compact handguns. I appreciate the engineering, but just don't shoot them well. And I might go retro, meaning pull out my revolvers for EDC.
I like a nice medium frame revolver or something like a midsize to large pistol even if it is lower capacity like a 1911.
The tiny single stacks are great for concealment but for proficient shooting I like something that fits my larger hands well like a 1911 or a GP100 or an L frame Smith. I carried a Ruger Security Six for a long time and it was a handgun I shot very well and was still concealable for me.
-
I try to stay ahead of the curve. I bought a DB380 two years ago for daily carry. 6 + 1 is all I need. I sold all my EBR's 8 years ago to avoid that trap and headache. This is the only forum I post on and make sure I don't post anything inflammatory. The pendulum always swings.
-
and perhaps increased interest in the 1911, especially with rails, optics, etc. Also, maybe a renewed interest in revolvers, especially th 7-8 round .357 magnum models.
Thoughts?
Said for years the AWB in essence brought 1911s back from the grave. Seemed like the variety of 1911 models for sale exploded after 1994.
-
So much for setting aside the politics/revolt aspects. I was curious as to what the firearms industry might do if a 10 round cap on firearms was again put in place.
Ben, kind of like you, I'll likely leave my existing high cap handguns at home, and stick with my single stack guns for edc. I honestly prefer my single stacks for carry. Thinner pistols, thinner reloads, etc. I'm not a fan of the sub compact handguns. I appreciate the engineering, but just don't shoot them well. And I might go retro, meaning pull out my revolvers for EDC.
Your question is an irrelevancy* whose only purpose practical effect on reality is to put people into a frame of mind where they have already accepted the infringement on their absolute right to self defense. This is fundamentally self defeating and should be avoided as a psychological/cognitive hazard.
*speculation on industry moves based on speculation of political moves based on propagandized agenda statements. Seems irrelevant.
-
Your question is an irrelevancy whose only purpose is to put people into a frame of mind where they have already accepted the infringement on their absolute right to self defense.
Okay. Never mind. Wrote a smart ass response, but I'm not wanting a fight.
-
Okay. Never mind. Wrote a smart ass response, but I'm not wanting a fight.
No, you're right, that was way more caustic than the concept I was trying to convey. I edited it to bring it back in line. :-[
-
I just rolled with the thread drift without thinking about the OP :P
-
No, you're right, that was way more caustic than the concept I was trying to convey. I edited it to bring it back in line. :-[
Thanks. To be honest, I started the thread after a few drinks just sitting thing "what if" and so I posted. Truly no politics intended. Just a brain game wondering how the industry might respond to a new 10 round limit, and how the shooters might adjust/adapt.
-
Didn't the folks up in Canada just flat out ignore some over the top restrictive gun law (registration?) and the law just quietly went away some years later?
I think a lot of "ignoring" comes down to where you live and what risks you are comfortable taking. I suppose, post-ban, some visiting California tech hipster in Boise might see my FNX-45 print in some downtown pub and call the cops. There's a strong chance the Boise cops would ignore the 15 round mag, but you never know when you might get a jackass cop. Much less likely where I live and I would likely ignore the ban in most of this state, and maybe a couple of nearby states.
Not everyone has the luxury. If this passes, were one of the seven remaining conservatives in Portland to go to the gun range with their pre-ban standard capacity mag, there's a good chance somebody would turn them in, and a good chance they wouldn't be let off easy.
I won't fault people living in certain jurisdictions from laying low.
-
Didn't the folks up in Canada just flat out ignore some over the top restrictive gun law (registration?) and the law just quietly went away some years later?
The Canadian gun registry barely managed 10% compliance.
-
Didn't the folks up in Canada just flat out ignore some over the top restrictive gun law (registration?) and the law just quietly went away some years later?
True but the Canadian authorities weren't/aren't as "bat $%!# crazy" as the likes of Bloomberg, Pelosi, Feinstein, etc.
-
True but the Canadian authorities weren't/aren't as "bat $%!# crazy" as the likes of Bloomberg, Pelosi, Feinstein, etc.
Yup, our government has proven on multiple occasions that they are happily willing to murder dozens of unarmed women and children to enforce their unconstitutional gun laws.
-
That wasn't murder -- it was just "collateral damage."
Yeah, that's what it was.
-
I think a lot of "ignoring" comes down to where you live and what risks you are comfortable taking.
^^^this
Here, it will be noncompliance and nonenforcement
Years ago I hired a 16 year old kid and helped him buy his first.car. Now he is a muscled up 6’3” sheriffs deputy on the SRT (SWAT) team. He has keys and alarm codes for my house and checks on it for us when we are away. I know a lot of local LEO. I can’t see any of them enforcing any confiscation.
-
A lot of it will tend to be regional but if push were to come to shove, I still believe that when given the choice of enforcing an unconstitutional law (gun ban/confiscation) or being unemployed or even arrested themselves the overwhelming majority of sworn law enforcement officers will default to their paychecks and power and happily cinch up the jackboots.
-
A lot of it will tend to be regional but if push were to come to shove, I still believe that when given the choice of enforcing an unconstitutional law (gun ban/confiscation) or being unemployed or even arrested themselves the overwhelming majority of sworn law enforcement officers will default to their paychecks and power and happily cinch up the jackboots.
From what I know personally from my own past, and what I have seen actually take place the past couple of years, I have to agree with Larry; the National Guard, local law enforcement, and the minions of the Federal Government will carry out their orders, some reluctantly, some whole heartedly and some vindictively, depending on their own personalities.
-
I think a lot of LEO's and military personnel will not, but how many does it really take? If 20% enforce it, that is enough to cause some pretty serious trouble for a lot of people. Also, if this starts gradually, many of the better LEO's will quit/retire. Once the issue is in the computer, local feds may come in and complicate things.
Here in Texas, jurisdictions like Houston might enforce it. Other areas won't. There may be a lot of LEO's quietly fail to mention HiCap mags in their reports, etc.
-
Didn't the folks up in Canada just flat out ignore some over the top restrictive gun law (registration?) and the law just quietly went away some years later?
I believe New York State had the vast majority fail to comply as well. I think they had an AWB registration.
-
On the OP, I think we would see some new polymer carry pistols designed around the 10 round limit no matter what caliber. We see that more or less with the micro-9 pistols with S&W and Ruger getting into things recently. You might see the same thing with 40 and 45 or maybe 10mm. Those would be bigger certainly, but it might be interesting to see.
-
I am not sure I want to open the Pandora's box of having the individual PFC Jones and Patrolman Vasquez making their own individual decisions on whether a particular legal decision or order is illegal or unconstitutional and if to follow it or not. This might be somewhat easier in a wartime environment or under the UCMJ, but in a civil governmental setting with the government and the courts saying it is legal and constitutional? The next step down that road is individuals deciding of their own accord that the legal decisions and orders that protect you are illegal or unconstitutional, and PFC Jones and Patrolman Vasquez are loading you on the train to the detention camps.
-
I am not sure I want to open the Pandora's box of having the individual PFC Jones and Patrolman Vasquez making their own individual decisions on whether a particular legal decision or order is illegal or unconstitutional and if to follow it or not. This might be somewhat easier in a wartime environment or under the UCMJ, but in a civil governmental setting with the government and the courts saying it is legal and constitutional? The next step down that road is individuals deciding of their own accord that the legal decisions and orders that protect you are illegal or unconstitutional, and PFC Jones and Patrolman Vasquez are loading you on the train to the detention camps.
Pretty sure that loading people onto trains is what happens when the PFC and SPC do NOT think for themselves, exactly like you are suggesting.
-
Pretty sure that loading people onto trains is what happens when the PFC and SPC do NOT think for themselves, exactly like you are suggesting.
The problem is that when PFC Jones and Patrolman Vasquez start making their own decisions about what's a constitutional law and what isn't, it can go either way. At that point, we no longer have a nation of laws, we have a nation of whims. The word for that is "anarchy."
-
We don't have a nation of laws . We mostly avert our eyes and pretend otherwise, but the truth is staring us in the face. There is a set of rules for the dirt people, and an infinite set of exemptions for the New Lords.
The only time the New Lords ever face consequences is when they mess with other New Lords of a higher status.
-
Regarding some LEO just defaulting to "doing their jobs", I saw this quote from a traffic stop incident making the news. A couple of VA cops did a traffic stop on a military officer. A quote from one of the officers:
The officers approach the SUV, and Nazario says, "I'm serving this country, and this is how I'm treated?" Gutierrez responds that he is a veteran and "learned to obey."
https://www.cnn.com/2021/04/11/us/windsor-virginia-police-stop-army-lieutenant-lawsuit/index.html
-
Regarding some LEO just defaulting to "doing their jobs", I saw this quote from a traffic stop incident making the news. A couple of VA cops did a traffic stop on a military officer. A quote from one of the officers:
https://www.cnn.com/2021/04/11/us/windsor-virginia-police-stop-army-lieutenant-lawsuit/index.html
That incident sucks. I hope the guy gets a lot of money.
However, I don't think those two cops represent all cops. Neither are all cops wonderful people who will abide by the Constitution. It will be somewhere in the middle.
-
Wife, children, family, career, access to credit or existing high levels of debt, peer pressure, being seen as the enemy by those who you've sworn to serve and protect, the letter of the law giving cover to actions that violate historic principles, promotions and raises for obedience, bigger budgets, fear of skeletons in your closet being revealed ...
There are a lot of areas of leverage being applied or that can be applied to the police.
If oppressive laws are passed and the courts uphold them we're in big trouble.
-
However, I don't think those two cops represent all cops. Neither are all cops wonderful people who will abide by the Constitution. It will be somewhere in the middle.
It only has to represent enough for this to turn into a *expletive deleted*it storm
-
Like now, it will probably be a regional thing.
-
https://www.gunsamerica.com/digest/traffic-stop-army-officer-sparks-nationwide-controversy/?utm_source=email&utm_medium=20210416_FridayDigest_326&utm_campaign=/digest/traffic-stop-army-officer-sparks-nationwide-controversy/
I came here to post this and I noticed I already commented on it and still don't remember seeing this before. This link has badge video. Might be mistakes on both sides, but the police carried the "you will comply" stuff a bit further than I would expect.
I have to admit if I had officers with guns drawn on me, I think my first instinct would be to freeze with hands visible and do nothing. Seen too many cases where people are shot due to "furtive movement" and everyone says it was a good shoot. I would also say to state you will comply but you want to do so carefully and then narrate your movements. Don't do that until after they get close enough to see what your doing and here you. Of course, if they don't stop yelling, I am not sure what I would do. In many of these videos, I can't tell what the officers are yelling right away and they often yell different and conflicting commands.
If you want to drive a little further down the road for a better place to stop, it might help to turn on the interior light and roll windows down if the speed is low enough.