Author Topic: Good sense, reason, decency prevails - liberty intact  (Read 38708 times)

Balog

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Re: Good sense, reason, decency prevails - liberty intact
« Reply #125 on: July 14, 2011, 12:42:35 PM »
And you equate destruction of property with visible underpants?
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Good sense, reason, decency prevails - liberty intact
« Reply #126 on: July 14, 2011, 12:45:46 PM »
And you equate destruction of property with visible underpants?

Only in that they are both violations of others' rights.
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Balog

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Re: Good sense, reason, decency prevails - liberty intact
« Reply #127 on: July 14, 2011, 12:49:26 PM »
Only in that they are both violations of others' rights.

Which right is visible underpants violating again?
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

Perd Hapley

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Re: Good sense, reason, decency prevails - liberty intact
« Reply #128 on: July 14, 2011, 12:55:47 PM »
Which right is visible underpants violating again?

The same right that justifies a law against public nudity. We've already covered this.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Good sense, reason, decency prevails - liberty intact
« Reply #129 on: July 14, 2011, 01:02:24 PM »
Here is answer to some recent posts:



There seems to be a misconception that the law can't be valid unless we pretend that the back of some guy's underwear is equivalent to some girl's mid-riff. Or unless we pretend that undergarments are the same as outerwear. And, hey, maybe I don't think women (or men) should feel free to go shirtless. I wear an undershirt and a t-shirt, with long pants, when I run. And I'm more sensitive to hot weather than anyone, so I wouldn't have much patience for whining about such a requirement.


 Maybe this would be easier, if we could reconsider what should really be acceptable in public, and what shouldn't. Not that I want to ban everything that might be unacceptable, or that I don't like. But there's a huge difference between banning saggy drawers that reveal (a lot of) underwear, and banning, say, some of the more conservative women's one-piece swimsuits. One is socially acceptable and intended for outer wear. Practically speaking, there's no chance those will be banned, without a major shift in what our culture considers acceptable. (Or sports bras, or male toplessness.) (Not to mention that swim-wear could be restricted to pools, beaches, etc.)

Now some will insist that government has to be based on rights and facts, and so on, not on cultural norms or societal expectations. Such ideas are extremely naive. The concepts are not separable. I believe our laws should be limited to protecting the rights of the people. And that's all I'm talking about.


On the biker shorts picture, last page, who says that's legal in Collinsville? One would hope its illegal anywhere.
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Balog

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Re: Good sense, reason, decency prevails - liberty intact
« Reply #130 on: July 14, 2011, 01:02:52 PM »
The same right that justifies a law against public nudity. We've already covered this.

And if a majority Muslim community decided that women not wearing burqas was also a violation of that right you'd be ok with it?


That being said, you still haven't explained what is offensive about exposed underpants, that is not also offensive in tight jeans, soccer shorts, or really any type of shorts worn sans underwear.
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

Perd Hapley

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Re: Good sense, reason, decency prevails - liberty intact
« Reply #131 on: July 14, 2011, 01:10:40 PM »
And if a majority Muslim community decided that women not wearing burqas was also a violation of that right you'd be ok with it?

Of course not. They are drawing the line in an absurd place. Are you saying there's a slippery slope between properly worn pants and the burqa? Or do you just say that because it's a time-worn (and usually false) argument we've all heard before?

Quote

That being said, you still haven't explained what is offensive about exposed underpants, that is not also offensive in tight jeans, soccer shorts, or really any type of shorts worn sans underwear.

See above post.
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CNYCacher

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Re: Good sense, reason, decency prevails - liberty intact
« Reply #132 on: July 14, 2011, 01:22:55 PM »
That being said, you still haven't explained what is offensive about exposed underpants, that is not also offensive in tight jeans, soccer shorts, or really any type of shorts worn sans underwear.

You are making the assumption that Fistful does not wish to make tight jeans, biker shorts, or any kind of shorts worn sans underwear, illegal.

Your assumption may be incorrect.
On two occasions, I have been asked [by members of Parliament], "Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?" I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question.
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Balog

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Re: Good sense, reason, decency prevails - liberty intact
« Reply #133 on: July 14, 2011, 01:39:16 PM »
Of course not. They are drawing the line in an absurd place. Are you saying there's a slippery slope between properly worn pants and the burqa? Or do you just say that because it's a time-worn (and usually false) argument we've all heard before?

See above post.

I'm saying it because it might happen. http://www.parentcentral.ca/parent/education/article/1022385--board-runs-afoul-of-education-act-with-prayer-services

And your post above is just blathering nonsense. I feel like I'm done beating my head against this particular wall. Maybe I'll go do something productive like argue with CSD about a bad shoot by a cop...  ;/
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

dogmush

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Re: Good sense, reason, decency prevails - liberty intact
« Reply #134 on: July 14, 2011, 02:31:29 PM »
False. As I actually stated, there is more than one cultural group doing this. I haven't said anything that could be construed as a desire to squeeze anyone out of society. Unless "Pull up your pants," is code language of some kind.

The specific subset who sag their pants? They should be "harassed."

Uh Huh.

You were pretty clear.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2011, 02:35:01 PM by dogmush »

makattak

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Re: Good sense, reason, decency prevails - liberty intact
« Reply #135 on: July 14, 2011, 03:48:21 PM »
Uh Huh.

You were pretty clear.

He was pretty clear that people who sag their pants should be told to pull up their pants.

He clearly did not say we need to harrass black youths. He further went on to explain, in a circumspect way, that it is not just black youths that sag their pants.

It would be so nice if we didn't have to dance around the race issue. He (and I) doesn't care what color you are.
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

dogmush

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Re: Good sense, reason, decency prevails - liberty intact
« Reply #136 on: July 14, 2011, 04:10:28 PM »
I wasn't dancing around anything.  I said sub-culture, not race.

Around here the folks sagging their pants are white teens to 20-somethings.  The Urban/rap sub-culture is the defining element I see in sagging/baggy pants not race.

CNYCacher

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Re: Good sense, reason, decency prevails - liberty intact
« Reply #137 on: July 14, 2011, 04:19:14 PM »
Uh Huh.

You were pretty clear.

I am going to go ahead and assume that your last statement was sarcasm and that you are implying that Fistful was being inconsistent.  You would be correct if the terms "cultural group" and "specific subset" meant the same thing, but they don't, so you aren't.
On two occasions, I have been asked [by members of Parliament], "Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?" I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question.
Charles Babbage

Seenterman

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Re: Good sense, reason, decency prevails - liberty intact
« Reply #138 on: July 14, 2011, 04:55:13 PM »
Quote
False. As I actually stated, there is more than one cultural group doing this. I haven't said anything that could be construed as a desire to squeeze anyone out of society. Unless "Pull up your pants," is code language of some kind.

The specific subset who sag their pants? They should be "harassed."

He was pretty clear that people who sag their pants should be told to pull up their pants.

He clearly did not say we need to harrass black youths. He further went on to explain, in a circumspect way, that it is not just black youths that sag their pants.

It would be so nice if we didn't have to dance around the race issue. He (and I) doesn't care what color you are.

No one said this was about black youths, I specifically said "urban youths". If you have actually seen this in person you'd know that "urban youths" be they white, black, spanish, and asian kids all wear their pants like this. Obviously not everyone wears their pants like this but many urban youths of every color do. No one else mentioned race other than you, so there is no dancing other than what you are somehow reading into.

Ladies, apologies ahead of time. I'm going to have to play devils advocate and start comparing breast to boxers, and start denigrating breast. Don't worry I actually love them and the below post doesn't reflect my views on breasts at all.
Quote
There seems to be a misconception that the law can't be valid unless we pretend that the back of some guy's underwear is equivalent to some girl's mid-riff. Or unless we pretend that undergarments are the same as outerwear.

Exactly. I don't know how you can logically come to the conclusion that a woman that exposes a large portion of her breasts through
a revealing top is less offensive and less revealing that seeing some cloth. How can you compare viable boxers to public indecency, when large quantities of actual skin showing on a different gender is acceptable.

Another odd thing about public indecency and breast is that in 45 states breast feeding in public is 100% legal!
A woman is pulling out her bare breast, in public and its legal!!! I was joking at first when I asked if you where sexist, but as a male this is starting to sound sexist. A woman can reveal a good portion of her breasts / or her entire breast if she's nursing any day of the week without question, but a guy is going to be harassed and ticketed by police because his boxers are showing. Give me a break.

How many times here have I heard that laws are not created to protect your delicate sensibilities in regards to anti's protesting open carry, but once the target of legislation is something a poster does not like they suddenly think that the law is their to protect their sensibilities. Hypocritical if you ask me.

And seriously, we've been debating underwear for 6 pages now.  :laugh:

makattak

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Re: Good sense, reason, decency prevails - liberty intact
« Reply #139 on: July 14, 2011, 04:59:54 PM »
At what point in this argument has any of the supporters of the local ordinance made any statement that says women can wear whatever they want but guys need to pull up their pants? (Not just picking on you, Seenterman, lots have made the same argument, you are just the most recent one.)

As for "Urban Youths" unless that means "Nearly any teenage or immature adult in any city, town, or municipality in the country", then it's not just urban youths.
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

Seenterman

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Re: Good sense, reason, decency prevails - liberty intact
« Reply #140 on: July 14, 2011, 05:19:37 PM »
Quote
At what point in this argument has any of the supporters of the local ordinance made any statement that says women can wear whatever they want but guys need to pull up their pants? (Not just picking on you, Seenterman, lots have made the same argument, you are just the most recent one.)

Those busy bodies who passed this ordinance probably would support something like a cleavage police. I've been trying to use breasts as a comparison to point out a logical hole in fistfuls argument. If he can compare visible boxers to public indecency how can you not come to the same conclusion about women who wear revealing tops which actually exposes skin. I think he's just dodging the question because he enjoys those revealing tops as much as I do and doesn't want to admit.

Quote
As for "Urban Youths" unless that means "Nearly any teenage or immature adult in any city, town, or municipality in the country", then it's not just urban youths.

Well yes that's true I just used "urban youths" because I was an "urban youth" and saw this pretty much everyday (but that was back in the 90's or very early 00's). It's also where the style started, but yes it has expanded to everyone who wears urban / rap / ghetto style clothing everywhere across the country. 

Scout26

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Re: Good sense, reason, decency prevails - liberty intact
« Reply #141 on: July 14, 2011, 05:24:44 PM »
Whenever I see "utes" with sagging pants and exposed underwear, I explain to them where that fashion statement came from and what it means/implies.   It's amazing how quickly  they then pull up their pants. 
Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants won't help.


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Balog

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Re: Good sense, reason, decency prevails - liberty intact
« Reply #142 on: July 14, 2011, 07:11:40 PM »
I'm still waiting for anyone to define how 1. clothing choice is not speech and how 2. infringement against a Constitutionally specified right should not be held to the "strict scrutiny" legal standard.
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

roo_ster

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Re: Good sense, reason, decency prevails - liberty intact
« Reply #143 on: July 14, 2011, 08:49:46 PM »
I'm still waiting for anyone to define how 1. clothing choice is not speech and how 2. infringement against a Constitutionally specified right should not be held to the "strict scrutiny" legal standard.

I'm still waiting for anyone to define how pancakes are not clothing my own self.  And how anal fissures are not speech, too, and therefore qualifying them for strict scrutiny(1).

I suspect we both will be disappointed, as any others with two brain cells to rub together will look at us like we have grown a phallus from our foreheads.




(1) I hear that some folks will pay good $$$ for "strict scrutiny" of anal fissures.  Could be just a rumor, though.
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freakazoid

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Re: Good sense, reason, decency prevails - liberty intact
« Reply #144 on: July 14, 2011, 09:52:48 PM »
Where does it say we don't have that right? Last I remember they didn't want the fact that they had only a few amendments in there didn't mean that those were the only rights we have. Pursuit of happiness anyone?

edit - What about kilts, worn correctly?  =D
« Last Edit: July 14, 2011, 09:59:27 PM by freakazoid »
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Good sense, reason, decency prevails - liberty intact
« Reply #145 on: July 15, 2011, 05:10:44 AM »
I'm still waiting for anyone to define how 1. clothing choice is not speech

Of course clothing is speech. Reasonable men realize that by choice of clothing they send a message to other people as to what self-image they want to project and what social group (and thus values) they want to associate with.

This is also precisely why people want to ban certain types of clothing - in this case, saggypants. Saggypants are associated with gang-bangers and those who think gang-bangers are cool. People reasonably and legitimately disapprove of this subculture. This does not mean they should, or can, make their disapproval law.
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RoadKingLarry

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Re: Good sense, reason, decency prevails - liberty intact
« Reply #146 on: July 15, 2011, 06:55:46 AM »
Some of you guys are just like Cameron
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O42K4EwVssQ

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geronimotwo

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Re: Good sense, reason, decency prevails - liberty intact
« Reply #147 on: July 15, 2011, 07:06:04 AM »
i would disagree with the clothing (unless it is a printed message on the underwear that you take offense too) being covered by the first amendment.  i would , however, say that a person should be left to choose their own wardrobe (no matter how absurd that it is.).  perhaps we would be more comforted if the saggy pants revealed a more suitable garment like a speedo?  well accepted as outerwear, (yuck) it could not be offensive if exposed?  funny how it was just this week that i saw a gentleman wearing his belt at mid thigh.  i couldn't figure how his pants were staying up (he must have had internal suspenders as all but the last inch of boxers were showing).  i wasn't thinking "where is the constable"?  i was lmao!

as an aside, i only read the first and last pages of this thread and i have to say that it is likely the first thread i have seen make 6 pages without drifting off topic. (nearly the same wording in fact)
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roo_ster

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Re: Good sense, reason, decency prevails - liberty intact
« Reply #148 on: July 15, 2011, 11:03:30 AM »
I'm still waiting for anyone to define how pancakes are not clothing my own self.  And how anal fissures are not speech, too, and therefore qualifying them for strict scrutiny(1).

I suspect we both will be disappointed, as any others with two brain cells to rub together will look at us like we have grown a phallus from our foreheads.




(1) I hear that some folks will pay good $$$ for "strict scrutiny" of anal fissures.  Could be just a rumor, though.

I'm still waiting...
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roo_ster

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CNYCacher

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Re: Good sense, reason, decency prevails - liberty intact
« Reply #149 on: July 15, 2011, 11:08:37 AM »
Does someone think that "anal fissure" == "butt crack"?
On two occasions, I have been asked [by members of Parliament], "Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?" I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question.
Charles Babbage