Author Topic: Chavez really wants that bullet, doesn't he.  (Read 7786 times)

Manedwolf

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Chavez really wants that bullet, doesn't he.
« on: July 22, 2008, 12:33:08 PM »
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Chavez Claims Alliance With Russia Will Protect Venezuela

Tuesday , July 22, 2008

BARVIKHA (AP) Venezuelan strongman Hugo Chavez is on a shopping spree for military hardware from Moscow, and already has a few energy deals in hand.

On Tuesday, Chavez called for a strategic alliance with Russia to protect his country from the United States, having repeatedly accused Washington of plotting an invasion to destabilize his government.

The United States denies such a plan, and a State Department official downplayed the suggestion of a deeper Venezuela-Russia partnership.

"We've repeatedly communicated concerns with Russia about Chavez's arms build-up in the past, and we're going to continue to do so," State Department spokesman Gonzalo Gallegos said during a press conference, adding the U.S. also questions "whether such acquisitions are in line with Venezuela's defense needs."

Asked if there were worries about Russia making alliances with Venezuela, as well as reports with new dealings with Cuba, Gallegos said, "They are a sovereign nation, and they will make alliances as they see fit."

Rep. Connie Mack, R-Fla., a regular critic of the Chavez administration, issued a statement to FOXNews.com saying the deal should cause "great alarm."

With Hugo Chavezs past track record of purchasing weapons from Russia that far exceeded Venezuelas legitimate defensive needs, coupled with his aggressive support of the FARC (Revolutionary Armed Forces of Columbia) terrorist organization, along with the alliances that both Russia and Chavez have with Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, this weapons deal that is currently being negotiated ought to cause great alarm throughout the Western Hemisphere," Mack said.

Mack said that Chavez is proving to be like Cuba's Fidel Castro was during the Cold War, but unlike Castro, is a "partner who has vast resources and a zealous determination to destabilize the Western Hemisphere."

The Venezuala-Russia alliance would mean "we can guarantee Venezuela's sovereignty, which is now threatened by the United States," Chavez told reporters shortly after his arrival in Moscow.

Chavez is in Russia to broker a number of deals involving weapons purchases, oil exploration and possibly the creation of a joint financial institution.

Welcoming Chavez at Meiendorf Castle, his residence outside Moscow, President Dmitry Medvedev said Russian-Venezuelan relations "are one of the key factors of security in the (South American) region."

It is the presidents' first meeting since Medvedev took office in May.

Venezuela's state-run oil company Petroleos de Venezuela SA signed separate deals with three Russian energy companies  Gazprom, Lukoil and TNK-BP  during the first day of Chavez's visit.

In addition, Russian media have reported that Chavez is expected to reach a number of agreements for purchasing Russian military hardware while in Moscow, with one paper reporting the deals could be worth up to $2 billion.

The newspaper Kommersant, generally regarded as reliable, reported Tuesday that Chavez is looking to order Ilyushin jets, diesel-powered submarines, Tor-M1 air defense systems and possibly tanks. It did not specify its sources.

"We want peace, but we are forced to strengthen our defense," Chavez said when asked about the potential deals upon his arrival.

Rosoboronexport, Russia's state-owned arms trader, declined to comment on potential deals.

Venezuela, which spent $4 billion on international arms purchases between 2005 and 2007, mostly from Russia and China, has a defense budget of $2.6 billion, according to the London-based International Institute for Strategic Studies.

The U.S. stopped supplying arms to Venezuela in 2006.

The three energy agreements involve exploring new oil fields in Venezuela. Chavez said they signified the "creation of a new strategic energy alliance" between Russia and Venezuela.

The deal with TNK-BP was particularly striking given the company's ongoing dispute between its Russian and British shareholders.

"For TNK-BP it is a positive sign that the shareholders' conflict has had no effect on the business," said Valery Nesterov, an analyst at Troika Dialog, an investment bank.

On Tuesday BP announced it would recall 60 technical specialists from Russia.

Chavez also wants to discuss the possibility of creating a joint bank, according to Alexis Navarro, Venezuela's ambassador to Moscow.

The Venezuelan president also met Prime Minister Vladimir Putin and was to meet Russian military and business leaders.

Commercial trade between Venezuela and Russia reached $1.1 billion last year, almost double the $517 million in trade during 2006, according to statistics cited by Venezuela's state-run news agency.


At this point, I'd not be surprised if Columbia or Brazil took him out. (I wish they would!) He's definitely becoming a threat to the region.

taurusowner

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Re: Chavez really wants that bullet, doesn't he.
« Reply #1 on: July 22, 2008, 12:53:35 PM »
Wow.  Old diesel subs and 30 year old tanks.  Let him waste him money on used up garbage that we figured out how to beat last century. 

De Selby

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Re: Chavez really wants that bullet, doesn't he.
« Reply #2 on: July 22, 2008, 01:05:34 PM »


At this point, I'd not be surprised if Columbia or Brazil took him out. (I wish they would!) He's definitely becoming a threat to the region.

That would be an incredibly dangerous move on the part of Colombia or Brazil for a number of reasons, including the fact that Hugo Chavez is more popular in Colombia and Brazil than the governments of Colombia and Brazil.

Apparently the majority of the people in South America hadn't noticed that he's a danger to them-but I'm sure their benevolent governments can be trusted to act in their interests, even when they can't see the truth.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

41magsnub

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Re: Chavez really wants that bullet, doesn't he.
« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2008, 01:27:12 PM »
Wow.  Old diesel subs and 30 year old tanks.  Let him waste him money on used up garbage that we figured out how to beat last century. 

The Us military would probably not be seriously threatened, but with that stuff he could steamroll his neighbors.

yesitsloaded

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Re: Chavez really wants that bullet, doesn't he.
« Reply #4 on: July 22, 2008, 04:56:16 PM »
Don't be so sure about old weapons. Those ancient IEDs, AK47s, and RPGs sure are giving us a hard time in Iraq. I think the Venezuelans are a little more competent than the suicidal terrorist bunch too.   
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taurusowner

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Re: Chavez really wants that bullet, doesn't he.
« Reply #5 on: July 22, 2008, 06:21:11 PM »
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Those ancient IEDs, AK47s, and RPGs sure are giving us a hard time in Iraq.

Only because we let them give us a hard time by tying both of our own hands and one foot behind our back.

De Selby

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Re: Chavez really wants that bullet, doesn't he.
« Reply #6 on: July 22, 2008, 06:26:09 PM »
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Those ancient IEDs, AK47s, and RPGs sure are giving us a hard time in Iraq.

Only because we let them give us a hard time by tying both of our own hands and one foot behind our back.

So what would be the appropriate response?
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Sergeant Bob

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Re: Chavez really wants that bullet, doesn't he.
« Reply #7 on: July 22, 2008, 06:50:42 PM »
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Those ancient IEDs, AK47s, and RPGs sure are giving us a hard time in Iraq.

Only because we let them give us a hard time by tying both of our own hands and one foot behind our back.

So what would be the appropriate response?

That's exactly what I was wondering.
Personally, I do not understand how a bunch of people demanding a bigger govt can call themselves anarchist.
I meet lots of folks like this, claim to be anarchist but really they're just liberals with pierced genitals. - gunsmith

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roo_ster

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Re: Chavez really wants that bullet, doesn't he.
« Reply #8 on: July 22, 2008, 07:51:45 PM »
IMO, Chavez is a "gear queer" writ large and turning his .mil into same. 

To be more clear, he is buying hardware he and the Venezuelan .mil has no idea how to use for the purpose of Chavez's self-gratification.

Even with these and more purchases, I think the real threat Venezuela poses is its support of FARC and other fascist/communist revolutionary groups.

OTOH, Columbia has not invested in and does not look to invest in the heavy metal Chavez gets a chubby over.  But, Columbia has demonstrated competence* over time using the gear they have.  If it came down to Venezuela (with Rooskie tanks, jets, & subs) vs Columbia (with current much lighter hardware) I would bet on Columbia.  Even before Uncle Sam gave Chavez a JDAM wedgie.




* I met several men in the US Army of Columbian extraction, who had become American citizens.  Most had been NCOs in Columbia's army, one guy in their SF-equivalent.  They were of a higher quality than the average SOA O-level student.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Chavez really wants that bullet, doesn't he.
« Reply #9 on: July 22, 2008, 09:10:42 PM »
Wow.  Old diesel subs and 30 year old tanks.  Let him waste him money on used up garbage that we figured out how to beat last century. 

The US knows how to beat T-90's?

Regardless, these are not to fight America. Nobody can fight America. It's physically impossible. Chavez knows that.

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De Selby

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Re: Chavez really wants that bullet, doesn't he.
« Reply #10 on: July 22, 2008, 09:16:51 PM »
The biggest threat Chavez poses to his neighbors is through democracy promotion.  He's hugely popular throughout the continent, and his projects (financed by his oil) are received well with all of Venezuela's partners.  This includes Brazil, Ecuador, and Bolivia.

The real reason that Chavez's neighbors will not topple Chavez's Venezuela is that they won't be able to muster the support to do it.  Colombia has a hard time holding on to Colombia; it has absolutely no chance of beating a leader who is more popular in Colombia than the Colombian government.

The average joes in South America are not reading the New York Times, so they don't know that Chavez is an evil dictator.  He's mostly viewed by Latin Americans as a populist, pro-democracy activist who heavily promotes social programs...and that is an agenda that is obviously enormously attractive in that part of the world. 

"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

taurusowner

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Re: Chavez really wants that bullet, doesn't he.
« Reply #11 on: July 22, 2008, 09:55:40 PM »
The biggest threat Chavez poses to his neighbors is through democracy promotion.  He's hugely popular throughout the continent, and his projects (financed by his oil) are received well with all of Venezuela's partners.  This includes Brazil, Ecuador, and Bolivia.

The real reason that Chavez's neighbors will not topple Chavez's Venezuela is that they won't be able to muster the support to do it.  Colombia has a hard time holding on to Colombia; it has absolutely no chance of beating a leader who is more popular in Colombia than the Colombian government.

The average joes in South America are not reading the New York Times, so they don't know that Chavez is an evil dictator.  He's mostly viewed by Latin Americans as a populist, pro-democracy activist who heavily promotes social programs...and that is an agenda that is obviously enormously attractive in that part of the world. 



Chavez promotes democracy?  Coulda fooled me.


The real threat is economic populism.  Time and again popular firey speaking leader take control of a nation with talk of "tearing down the elite" and "giving the wealth back to the people".  In the end economic populism destroys the growth of nations and furthers poverty. 

De Selby

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Re: Chavez really wants that bullet, doesn't he.
« Reply #12 on: July 22, 2008, 09:58:33 PM »

Chavez promotes democracy?  Coulda fooled me.


The real threat is economic populism.  Time and again popular firey speaking leader take control of a nation with talk of "tearing down the elite" and "giving the wealth back to the people".  In the end economic populism destroys the growth of nations and furthers poverty. 

Okay, what anti-democracy moves has Chavez made?

"Economic populism", as implied by its name, is hugely popular in these parts fo the world.  What else would you expect a democratically elected government to pursue?

Maybe you are right about the long-term effects of economic populism, but certainly latin American voters do not buy it, and they did elect Chavez (his poll numbers used to be up around 70 percent support....lower now, I believe, after losing the initiative to try and allow him to run for office again.)
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

taurusowner

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Re: Chavez really wants that bullet, doesn't he.
« Reply #13 on: July 22, 2008, 10:25:43 PM »
Whether they believe it or not is not the issue.  Lack of investment a super-inflation speaks for itself.  Most Latin American economies are worth less than dirt.  And the foreign know-how and capital needed to bring them up is too afraid of investing in a region where they could lose all of their property and an investment during the next "people's revolution". 

Protection of private property is a fundamental building block of a growing economy.  No one will be willing to build oil wells, factories, research centers, commercial centers, housing, anything at all if they are afraid of the locals annexing it for themselves once it's completed.

Latin American leaders and their economic populism are absolutely terrifying to the foreign investors that region needs.  And rightly so.  And until this changes, that region will suffer over and over at the hands of OD Green fatigue wearing "leaders" and their "people's revolution" armies.

De Selby

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Re: Chavez really wants that bullet, doesn't he.
« Reply #14 on: July 22, 2008, 10:38:02 PM »
That may all be true, but it has nothing to do with democracy, and it's clear that at least in latin america, a focus on protecting private property and not spending on welfare programs is evidence that a government is not democratic.  It's a population that is, on the whole, much more leftist than in America. 

Being terrifying to foreign investors is not a sign of anti-democratic behavior, either.

While you may be right about the economics, again, that doesn't change the fact that this is a genuinely democratic system that Chavez is operating.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

MicroBalrog

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Re: Chavez really wants that bullet, doesn't he.
« Reply #15 on: July 22, 2008, 11:28:20 PM »
I think Shootinstudent means "Democracy" as in "whatever the majority supports."

Yes, Chavez is clearly for this kind of democracy, and if anybody thinks the majority of Latin Americans would not vote for property confiscation and welfare-statism if there was an up or down vote on it, they're sadly mistaken.

That said, Chavez is no friend of free speech or individual freedom (and yes, you can't have indvidual freedom without private property).


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De Selby

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Re: Chavez really wants that bullet, doesn't he.
« Reply #16 on: July 22, 2008, 11:36:19 PM »
I think Shootinstudent means "Democracy" as in "whatever the majority supports."

Yes, Chavez is clearly for this kind of democracy, and if anybody thinks the majority of Latin Americans would not vote for property confiscation and welfare-statism if there was an up or down vote on it, they're sadly mistaken.

That said, Chavez is no friend of free speech or individual freedom (and yes, you can't have indvidual freedom without private property).




I think there is good evidence that he is for free speech-the most oppressive action he's taken so far was to shut down a TV station that broadcast in support of a military coup to topple the elected government.  That would be treason in the United States, which I consider to be first in line when it comes to free speech.

But no question that he's not big on individual freedom-strong protections of individual freedom require anti-democratic action, and Chavez is not terribly anti-democratic in any fashion.  He tends to roll with what his constituents want.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

anygunanywhere

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Re: Chavez really wants that bullet, doesn't he.
« Reply #17 on: July 23, 2008, 07:24:50 AM »

Okay, what anti-democracy moves has Chavez made?



He wanted to be made el presidente for life.


gregormeister

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Re: Chavez really wants that bullet, doesn't he.
« Reply #18 on: July 23, 2008, 07:31:19 AM »
Don't be so sure about old weapons. Those ancient IEDs, AK47s, and RPGs sure are giving us a hard time in Iraq.

If they'd let are forces fight a real war with these extremist animals we'd show em' what was possible....the liberal pacifist leaders are whats giving us a hard time, time to kick it not kiss it

De Selby

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Re: Chavez really wants that bullet, doesn't he.
« Reply #19 on: July 23, 2008, 10:22:55 AM »

Okay, what anti-democracy moves has Chavez made?



He wanted to be made el presidente for life.



No, he did not-he proposed (and did not win) a measure allowing him to run for office for additional terms.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

The Annoyed Man

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Re: Chavez really wants that bullet, doesn't he.
« Reply #20 on: July 23, 2008, 12:41:09 PM »
I have no delusions about the state of affairs in Venezuela.

But, if the people there won't do anything to make their situation better, they're going to get every bit of Chavez they deserve.

In case you folks are interested:

http://www.freerctv.com/

ssbn642

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Re: Chavez really wants that bullet, doesn't he.
« Reply #21 on: July 23, 2008, 01:30:53 PM »
The real threat is economic populism.  Time and again popular firey speaking leader take control of a nation with talk of "tearing down the elite" and "giving the wealth back to the people".  In the end economic populism destroys the growth of nations and furthers poverty.

Sounds like U.S. politicians.  Hugo, as does the US has the right to conduct and defend his country as the voters see fit.  He, like Bush, Clinton,Bush, Reagan etc.. was elected by the populace.

This is not a troll, but I don't see Hugo invading other counrties.  He did what Castro did.  Kicked out the big multi-nationals and now the US is pi$$ed at him for not following the big business agenda like in the US.
The means of defense against foreign danger historically have become the instruments of tyranny at home.

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taurusowner

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Re: Chavez really wants that bullet, doesn't he.
« Reply #22 on: July 23, 2008, 01:45:16 PM »
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He did what Castro did.  Kicked out the big multi-nationals and now the US is pi$$ed at him for not following the big business agenda like in the US.

Too bad the "big businesses" are the only one who have the capital, resources, and risk taking ability to provide jobs, growth, and refine resources in that region.  He kicked them out and replaced them with what?  Nothing.  Or at very least, incompetent central planners following a worth and debunked Marxist method that only leads to national ruin.

Call it what you want, but he did what Castro did.  He kicked out the only people with the capability of pulling his nation out of the mud and into the 21st century.

Businesses provide job.  No business, no jobs.

ssbn642

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Re: Chavez really wants that bullet, doesn't he.
« Reply #23 on: July 23, 2008, 01:57:21 PM »
He also pulled out the businesses that were stealing that nations wealth, ie. oil.
Kind of what the World Bank does to 3rd world countries in their dealings.

It is none of OUR business what he does.  Hugo has not threatened the US economy like China,  Hugo has not threatened the US militarily.  His country is also the 5th largest oil exporter to the US and his oil company gives the residents of the NE US discount heating oil in the winter months, (Citgo).

Why do we even care what he does, OH yea, the media and govt. says we have to... police police police
The means of defense against foreign danger historically have become the instruments of tyranny at home.

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ssbn642

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Re: Chavez really wants that bullet, doesn't he.
« Reply #24 on: July 23, 2008, 01:59:00 PM »
Businesses provide job.  No business, no jobs.

Sounds like NAFTA to me.
The means of defense against foreign danger historically have become the instruments of tyranny at home.

~James Madison