Pearl Harbor - December 7th, 1941

[MechAg94]

I thought I would post this a couple days early.  Drachinifel recently finished a 3 part series on the salvage of the ships at Pearl Harbor after the attack.  It is worth some time looking at how much time it took to salvage these ships and how many sailors died doing it. 

The Salvage of Pearl Harbor Pt 1 - The Smoke Clears
https://youtu.be/bB-V9cCSC8o

The Salvage of Pearl Harbor Pt 2 - Up She Rises!
https://youtu.be/DlLCe1WNaIE

The Salvage of Pearl Harbor Pt 3 - The First and the Last
https://youtu.be/eibt2gYuFD4


I also saw this.
Pearl Harbor remembrance recorded Friday, days ahead of Dec. 7 due to public health considerations
https://www.bakersfield.com/news/pearl-harbor-remembrance-recorded-friday-days-ahead-of-dec-7-due-to-public-health-considerations/article_5422f9c2-367c-11eb-ab92-eb6f7a02b078.html

[T.O.M.]

I've been to Pearl twice.  Both times, took the boat ride to the Arizona Memorial.  Both times, I left a tear or two behind.  Both times, I took a trip to the Punch Bowl as well.  Never forget those who put on a uniform and stood between us and our enemies...

[RoadKingLarry]

I had 3 TDY trips to Hawaii for training, '81, '82 and '85.
I stayed in the barracks on Ford Island and had to take a water taxi to the main side sub base every day. The barracks was a hospital during WWII and it is shown multiple times during several Pearl Harbor movies.
I made several walking tours of Ford Island while I was there, still a lot of interesting history. I made a visit to the Arizona Memorial on 2 of my visits, a very moving experience.
My 1982 trip included a visit from hurricane Iwa - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurricane_Iwa. Now that was some excitement I could have lived without.
 

[sumpnz]

I had 3 TDY trips to Hawaii for training, '81, '82 and '85.
I stayed in the barracks on Ford Island and had to take a water taxi to the main side sub base every day. The barracks was a hospital during WWII and it is shown multiple times during several Pearl Harbor movies.
I made several walking tours of Ford Island while I was there, still a lot of interesting history. I made a visit to the Arizona Memorial on 2 of my visits, a very moving experience.
My 1982 trip included a visit from hurricane Iwa - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurricane_Iwa. Now that was some excitement I could have lived without.
 

Was that the storm that resulted in all the feral chickens?

[RoadKingLarry]

That, I don't know. It was the storm where a Los Angeles class fast attack submarine based at Pearl Harbor went to Kauai (I think) and back fed electrical power to parts of the island including a hospital.
 

ETA- https://modernfarmer.com/2015/04/the-mystery-of-kauais-thousands-of-feral-chickens/

[230RN]

Monday AM I was going to post a pic of the IJN Yamato on 1420 hours 07 Apr 1945, exploding and sinking.

    

I guess this was one of those examples where the Captain went up with his ship.  

Terry, 230RN

Pic credit in properties.

[Grebnaws]

Thank you for sharing, I will save these to my list and watch them with family. My wife enjoys World War footage even more than I do. My only connection to Pearl Harbor is a paternal Great Great Grandfather (part of a Swedish immigrant family) who served on the USS Vestal which later survived being bombed, even though a better known ship beside it, the Arizona, was sunk.

I am the oldest son, of the oldest son, of the only son, of the only surviving son who came to America, and I have inherited his Navy tags. My GG Grandfather was the oldest and only male to survive the Spanish Flu epidemic. He lost all of his brothers, his father, and one one of his sisters. I also share his name, minus one letter, though things get lost in the anglicization. During WW2 my grandfather volunteered twice and was rejected both times. A generation later my father refused to serve and was punished. He was in seminary school when his draft number came up and he remained a conscientious objector, teacher, and pacifist until his final days. How things can change in a generation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Vestal

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/reboot/uss-vestal-ugly-ship-survived-pearl-harbor-and-sailed-history-173402

Anyhow, I'm feeling reverent of their service and would like to share some pictures!

[230RN]

[MechAg94]

Monday AM I was going to post a pic of the IJN Yamato on 1420 hours 07 Apr 1945, exploding and sinking.

    

I guess this was one of those examples where the Captain went up with his ship.  

Terry, 230RN

Pic credit in properties.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCkfPeMls7s&t=3s
Drachinifel has this video on the sinking of the Yamato.  I didn't know the US commander was thinking of sending his Pearl Harbor battleships against the Yamato.  That would have been an interesting battle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AdcvDiA3lE
You can also enjoy his video on the Battle of Samar which includes the Philippines Leyte Gulf action.  This is a really good video to listen to.  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ziBhKXX6-HQ
I had not realized that one of the US destroyers in that action was actually pretty under gunned.  

He has done a couple videos on the Naval action around Guadalcanal recently if you are interested. 

[WLJ]

At the time the US thought the Yamato's were ~45,000 ton ships armed with 16" guns. It wasn't until after the war that they learn they were 72,000 tons ships with 18.1 guns. For comparison the Arizona was 29,000 and the later Iowa's were/are ~48,000 standard. If the US had known early in the war just how big they were the Montana's may have not have been canceled. The Japanese had plans for even larger ships with 20" guns as a follow on.

4 Yamato's were laid down
2 were completed as battleships, Yamato and Musashi
1 finished as a carrier, Shinano.
1 was scrapped at ~30% complete. Never named
A 5th was planned but never laid down. Never named as well.

[K Frame]

"Drachinifel has this video on the sinking of the Yamato.  I didn't know the US commander was thinking of sending his Pearl Harbor battleships against the Yamato.  That would have been an interesting battle."

That probably would have been an ugly battle... for the United States.

From late 1943 until the end of the war the WW I era battleships were used primarily for shore bombardment purposes to support invasion landings. As such they tended to carry a very limited amount of armor piercing ammunition, if any at all.

[WLJ]

World War Two is doing a minute by minute of PH

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Joh2BXPsrXs

[WLJ]

"Drachinifel has this video on the sinking of the Yamato.  I didn't know the US commander was thinking of sending his Pearl Harbor battleships against the Yamato.  That would have been an interesting battle."

That probably would have been an ugly battle... for the United States.

From late 1943 until the end of the war the WW I era battleships were used primarily for shore bombardment purposes to support invasion landings. As such they tended to carry a very limited amount of armor piercing ammunition, if any at all.

They carried a sizeable load of AP just in case.

Would have been 6 vs 1 and by this time all 6 had been upgraded with modern radar directed fire control and had proven themselves very accurate in anti-ship at San Bernardino Strait. The "Standards", as the US battleships of the WW-I era were/are often referred to, were not the same ships they were in 1941 due to extensive upgrades especially in fire control. Yamato may have gotten a few punches in, which would hurt possibly even taking one or two with her, but she would have been pounded into scrap metal by sheer weight of incoming shells, many of them 16". Yamato would also have been dodging waves of torpedoes from dozens of destroyers as well and by this point US torpedoes were largely fixed.

Add to this the much newer "Fast" battleships were in the area as well and IIRC they were standing by for orders to go in at which point it would have been game over at 7-9 modern BBs vs 1. The ugly side of this would have been the much great death toll on the American side that could have possibly occurred partly due to the fact the US had no clear idea just how big these things were as I pointed out above. Either way she was going down hard.

[K Frame]

"They carried a sizeable load of AP just in case."

Define sizeable.

From what I've seen, given the very limited information that's available, and depending where they were going to be operating, and when, it wasn't uncommon for the older battleships to have less than 5% of their total ammunition load out dedicated to AP. On the older battleships, that would have been 5 3-round salvos per turret.

It was much the same rational that was used when loading out the jeep carriers during invasion operations -- they had zero anti-ship capabilities. The fleet carriers and battleships were the guardians of the fleet, the jeeps were the guardians of the invasion troops.

That broke down when Halsey took the fast carriers and battships away from Leyte and left the invasion fleet unguarded. The Taffy jeep carrier groups had no way to effectively counter the Japanese battleships and cruisers that were bearing down on them...


"Would have been 6 vs 1 and by this time all 6 had been upgraded with modern radar directed fire control and had proven themselves very accurate in anti-ship at San Bernardino Strait."

Read up on the battle. 4 of the 6 old battleships had signifcant problems with their older model fire control radars. Pennsylvania's radar never detected a target so it never fired in the battle.

Maryland and Mississippi were finally able to enter the engagement when they were able to VISUALLY sight the Japanese targets -- their radars provided no positive contact information.

Only West Virginia and Tennessee were able to use their current generation fire control radar to any real benefit -- those two ships, along with California, which was apparently "blinded" by other US battleships until later in the battle -- to real effect.

West Virginia and California had the newest radar because they had required extensive refits after Pearl Harbor.

But, the biggest problem that would have faced the old 6 in a battle against Yamato?

Inability of their shells to adequately penetrate the Japanese armor at pretty much anything but the longest ranges, while Yamato's 18-inch shells could have penetrated their armor at any distance.

[Big Hairy Bee]

My grandfather was at Pearl Harbor on the DD USS Hull. He finished the war onboard CL USS Concord which fired the last shot of the war, so he bookended the US involvement in WW2. Last at sea was aboard BB USS Missouri in the 50s

[WLJ]

Someone on warships1 had the loadouts a while back. Can't remember the numbers but it was more than most people expected.
As far as armor a lot of people have the misconception that BBs are armored all over. Most of the armor is in the belt, turrets and the citadel and some deck armor using what is often referred to as the AOW (All Or Nothing) armor scheme as armoring the whole ship would make it impractically heavy. Plunging 16/45 was quite capable of penetrating Y's deck armor and the ends and as with what happened to Bismark it's not that hard to mission kill a BB taking out fire control, superstructure, etc.... at which point she's blind and deaf and then close. Even HE is quite effective at that.
The Americans had the fire control advantage especially in less than idea weather and at night and Yamato can't engage 6 at once anyway, she could engage 1 or at the most 2 at once. 2 at once standards was in fact how she was intended to be used as designd. But that still leaves the other 4 plus the CLs, CA, and lots and lots of DDs launching torpedoes
Like I said above she may take one or two with her but the other 4 are going to be doing target practice and that's assuming the Fast BBs don't get in on the action as well.

Honestly, I'm glad they didn't do it this way, much better in sent in the AC

[K Frame]

"Someone on warships1 had the loadouts a while back."

If that's the same thing that I saw, that was an early war balanced munitions load out -- it was NOT the late war bombardment support load out.

"As far as armor a lot of people have the misconception that BBs are armored all over."

Little known fact... the Yamatos were solid blocks of armored steel. No compartmentalization at all... 

The US 14"/45 or 50 as outfitting WW I era ships like the Pennsylvania were not capable of penetrating Yamato's side or turret armor at any range, and could only effectively penetrate its deck armor at extreme ranges (30,00o+ yards), or about 15,000 yards farther than any US battleship ever landed a hit.


"Plunging 16/45 was quite capable of penetrating Y's deck armor"

No. The Mk 5 shells weren't capable. The 16" guns on the Colorado-class battleships had only marginally better armor penetration capabilities at all ranges than the 14" shells, which were already deficient against Yamato's armor.

Yes, American fire control radar should help get early hits on the Yamato. I say should given the lackluster radar fire control performance suffered by the older battleship. In effect, that realistically reduces the American advantage of 6 to 1 down to a more reasonable 2 or 3 to 1, unless the Americans close the distance to make visual gun laying more effective.

But, while they're closing the distance to get a better visual fix on the Yamato, they're diminishing the already questionable armor piercing performance of their shells.


"as with what happened to Bismark"

Canard. By the time the Royal Navy's heavy ships got to Bismark she was already crippled and couldn't effectively maneuver due to prior damage from the Swordfish strikes. It's generally pretty easy to hit a target that's going in steady circles and which can't effectively return fire because of that.


Sorry, but no matter how you break this out, the advantage is decidedly on Yamato's size under virtually any conditions.

"that's assuming the Fast BBs don't get in on the action as well."

This entire discussion started with the premise that the PH BBs were going up against Yamato; not the fast battleships.

[WLJ]

"No. The Mk 5 shells weren't capable. The 16" guns on the Colorado-class battleships had only marginally better armor penetration capabilities at all ranges than the 14" shells, which were already deficient against Yamato's armor."
 
20s era 16 AP true. By 1945 the shells were vastly improved and are considered by many better than the 16 on the Iowas in many respects.

Even still got the issue that's it's 6 BB + a mess of CAs, CLs, and DDs vs 1 BB and a couple of CA,CLs and a handful of DDs.
Yamato can only at best engage two of those BBs, really only one effectively, while the other 4 turn her into a flaming wreck leaving her easy meat for the torpedoes.

[WLJ]

"Canard. By the time the Royal Navy's heavy ships got to Bismark she was already crippled and couldn't effectively maneuver due to prior damage from the Swordfish strikes. It's generally pretty easy to hit a target that's going in steady circles and which can't effectively return fire because of that. "

The rudder damage made her catchable before reaching port and did little to diminish her, actually he if German, actual fighting abilities other than making her, he, a somewhat easier target. Rodney taking out Bs main fire control early in the battle and crew fatigue had more to do with that. There is some question if B could have made it to port anyway due to fuel loss due to a hit by POW without a tow but they needed to get B under air cover to do that. . The British then closed and preceded to pound her to scrap basically at will. Would have been quicker if they had stayed at range and hit B with plunging fire. You sink ships by letting in water not by rearrange their upper works.

Maybe we should get back to PH

[K Frame]

"did little to diminish her, actually he if German, actual fighting abilities"

A major part of a big-gun ship's fighting abilities is the ability to maneuver.

If you can't maneuver, you're a sitting target. The inability to maneuver in anything other than a circle had a massive impact on the Bismark's ability to fight.

[WLJ]

"did little to diminish her, actually he if German, actual fighting abilities"

A major part of a big-gun ship's fighting abilities is the ability to maneuver.

If you can't maneuver, you're a sitting target. The inability to maneuver in anything other than a circle had a massive impact on the Bismark's ability to fight.

I covered that, I did say it made her/he/it an easier target. I was thinking more in her shooting ability

[MechAg94]

There is also the chance that anything could happen.  The Japanese cruisers (along with Yamato) should have laid waste to all the US ships at Leyte Gulf, but they didn't.  Even the accompanying Japanese destroys should have launched a spread of long lance torpedoes at the escort carriers and sank a couple just with that, but they were called off for some reason and didn't get into the fight until the end.  I am still confused as to what the Japanese commander was thinking when he pulled away, but they were constantly being harassed by aircraft and their formation was broken up dodging torpedoes from the US destroyers.  

The Yamato was very tough, but not invulnerable.  She took a large number of torpedo hits before finally being sunk.  I doubt the Yamato would have won, but she would have not have lost easily.  

[K Frame]

"20s era 16 AP true. By 1945 the shells were vastly improved and are considered by many better than the 16 on the Iowas in many respects."

The armor piercing figures I'm referencing are not for the earlier Mk 1 and 2 AP shells, they're for the Mk 5 AP shells that were in use throughout the entirety of the war.

And no, they were not capable of effectively penetrating Yamato's armor except at unrealistic engagement ranges.

They could have penetrated Yamato's belt armor, but only after closing to unrealistically close ranges where Yamato's shells would have cut through the ship's armor like a knife through melted butter.



"I covered that, I did say it made her/he/it an easier target. I was thinking more in her shooting ability"

Remember, too, that if you're locked into a permanent circle... roughly half of the time half of your main battery is unable to engage the target.

[WLJ]

"20s era 16 AP true. By 1945 the shells were vastly improved and are considered by many better than the 16 on the Iowas in many respects."

The armor piercing figures I'm referencing are not for the earlier Mk 1 and 2 AP shells, they're for the Mk 5 AP shells that were in use throughout the entirety of the war.

And no, they were not capable of effectively penetrating Yamato's armor except at unrealistic engagement ranges.

They could have penetrated Yamato's belt armor, but only after closing to unrealistically close ranges where Yamato's shells would have cut through the ship's armor like a knife through melted butter.



"I covered that, I did say it made her/he/it an easier target. I was thinking more in her shooting ability"

Remember, too, that if you're locked into a permanent circle... roughly half of the time half of your main battery is unable to engage the target.

Yes you did say Mk.5, I missed that. I think you missed I said deck armor.

[K Frame]

"I am still confused as to what the Japanese commander was thinking when he pulled away..."

Takeo Kurita was in command of Center Force.

The general American assumption was that he believed that he was being drawn into a trap and thus chose to withdraw.

In Japan many saw it as him losing his nerve and disgracing himself and the Emperor. He was removed from active command and, after threats of assassination, was assigned to the Japanese Naval Academy where he could be protected (primary, apparently, from cadres of Japanese Army officers who were, to a large degree, far more fanatical than IJN officers).

Before his death he was interviewed by a reporter and said that he decided to order a general withdrawal because he had concluded that the war was long since lost and sacrificing the lives of the men under his command would be a waste.