Pearl Harbor - December 7th, 1941

[WLJ]

Having his flagship (Atago) sunk out from under him by a US sub and fatigue probably effected his mental state at the time as well. IIRC he was ill before this and the main battle.

[K Frame]

"I think you missed I said deck armor."

No, I didn't miss the deck armor. But it doesn't matter, because the Mk 5 shell couldn't be reasonably expected to penetrate Yamato's deck armor except at extreme ranges (30,000+ yards). As the range closes, the Mk 5 loses more and more ability to penetrate deck armor as the trajectories flatten out, but it's not gaining the ability to penetrate Yamato's belt armor nearly quickly enough.

Between 30,000 yards and roughly 15,000 yards is the zone in which the Mk 5 simply can't penetrate the Japanese armor -- at all.

[K Frame]

"There is also the chance that anything could happen."

Yep. The proverbial Golden Twinkee shot.

[WLJ]

"There is also the chance that anything could happen."

Yep. The proverbial Golden Twinkee shot.

Yep, who would have guessed the Yamato would catch a computer virus and blow up

[RocketMan]

I finished reading this book by Gordon W. Prange a few weeks a couple of weeks ago,  https://www.amazon.com/December-1941-Japanese-Attacked-Harbor-ebook/dp/B00JOW20TE/ref=sr_1_3?crid=LX1EFSRVII6J&dchild=1&keywords=december+7%2C+1941&qid=1607369772&sprefix=december+7%2C+%2Caps%2C267&sr=8-3  It's an excellent telling of Pearl Harbor from the personal experience point of view of both American and Japanese participants, civilian and military.
One of his previous books, https://www.amazon.com/At-Dawn-We-Slept-Untold/dp/0140157344/ref=sr_1_2?crid=2S8SOLN0PWL1P&dchild=1&keywords=gordon+w.+prange&qid=1607370863&sprefix=gordon+w.+pr%2Caps%2C218&sr=8-2, is more of an in-depth historical analysis of the Pearl Harbor event from both the American and Japanese points of view.  It's also a good read, though it can be quite dry in places.

[K Frame]

"Yep, who would have guessed the Yamato would catch a computer virus and blow up"

Make it so, Number 1.

[K Frame]

I've not read Prang's books on Pearl Harbor, but I did read his book in Midway. It was quite excellent.

[WLJ]

"Yep, who would have guessed the Yamato would catch a computer virus and blow up"

Make it so, Number 1.

One of the few places I can say something like that and most people get it.

[K Frame]

"One of the few places I can say something like that and most people get it."

It actually took me a couple of minutes of wracking my brain... I knew that I knew the reference, I just couldn't place it...

That was actually one of my favorite episodes, too.

[RocketMan]

I've not read Prang's books on Pearl Harbor, but I did read his book in Midway. It was quite excellent.

True, all his books are good.  He was a meticulous researcher with a good team behind him.

[MechAg94]

"There is also the chance that anything could happen."

Yep. The proverbial Golden Twinkee shot.

I think I remember hearing the Bismarck's fire control computer was not very well protected and took a hit at some point before it was sunk. 

The Yamato vs US Pacific Battleships would be one of those battles overanalyzed for decades no matter how it had come out.  Even the air attack that actually happened has been studied quite a bit.

[WLJ]

I think I remember hearing the Bismarck's fire control computer was not very well protected and took a hit at some point before it was sunk.  

Rodney knocked out B's main director and then followed that up by taking out both of B's forward turrets early in the battle. B's aft director was knocked out shortly after that by either Rodney or King George V, not sure which. IIRC after this B lost the aft turrets as well. Then it became a contest between R and KGV on who could rearrange B's upper works more at near point blank range.  Some say B's armor belt was never actually penetrated although some say that nonsense. B scored no hits in her final battle.

[WLJ]

Rodney did fire torpedoes and is credited with a hit thus Rodney became the only BB in history to be credited with a hit on another BB with torpedoes although it is still argued over to this day by some whether or not the hit credited to her came from one of the cruisers. Hard to tell for sure when everyone is firing like mad, a torpedo hit looks like any other torpedo hit and there were several in the water at the time.

[WLJ]

 

Instagram flags President Trump’s Pearl Harbor tribute with an election fact-check
https://twitchy.com/brettt-3136/2020/12/07/instagram-flags-president-trumps-pearl-harbor-tribute-with-an-election-fact-check/

[lee n. field]

Exactly what came to my mind.

Along with


(As an aside, my brother the nurse told me about a patient he had once, a WWII vet, that had a small part in the surrender ceremony.  He was part of the team that swept the bay ahead of time to make sure there were no nasty surprises.)

[WLJ]

(As an aside, my brother the nurse told me about a patient he had once, a WWII vet, that had a small part in the surrender ceremony.  He was part of the team that swept the bay ahead of time to make sure there were no nasty surprises.)

Including mines that we air dropped. The operation was highly effective but is rarely mentioned.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Starvation

[lee n. field]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Allied_ships_at_the_Japanese_surrender

Dang!  That's a lot of ships.

[K Frame]

And not one fleet carrier.

They were all kept off shore in case the Japanese tried anything to disrupt the surrender.

Sent from my SM-G981U using Tapatalk

[WLJ]

And not one fleet carrier.

They were all kept off shore in case the Japanese tried anything to disrupt the surrender.

Sent from my SM-G981U using Tapatalk

Many consider it almost a crime the surrender signing wasn't done on Enterprise but there really was no way she could have made it.    She had just finished repairs on the west coast and making her way to PH

[kgbsquirrel]

"Drachinifel has this video on the sinking of the Yamato.  I didn't know the US commander was thinking of sending his Pearl Harbor battleships against the Yamato.  That would have been an interesting battle."

That probably would have been an ugly battle... for the United States.

From late 1943 until the end of the war the WW I era battleships were used primarily for shore bombardment purposes to support invasion landings. As such they tended to carry a very limited amount of armor piercing ammunition, if any at all.

Superior radar refits on the American ships.  They would have tried for a low visibility engagement and likely saturated the Yamato.  Burning down the ship with 16"&14"HC is perfectly valid, even if more protracted.  Japan really made a mistake not prioritizing radar tech.

ETA: I'm reminded of one our BB's that got hit at pearl harbor: one on side pretty much the only thing left in its original place was the armor belt, all the rest of the ship around it had been blasted away.  None of those hits went through the belt, but it didn't matter because explosives ripped apart everything around it anyways.

[K Frame]

"Burning down the ship with 16"&14"HC is perfectly valid, even if more protracted."

Read the commentary about the lack of penetrating power of the American 14 and 16 inch shells against Yamato's armor.

[WLJ]

Okay, so she's going to a very well armored useless flaming wreck. Dozens of 14 and 16 hits from 4-5 unmolested BBs is going to turn her ends and uppers works into flaming scrap metal at which point she's blind and deaf probably with no fire control except for what may have survived in the turret hoods. And she'll probably be down and slowed due to flooding to her ends at which point let the DDs finish her. The ends were always weak spot in AON armor schemes and her main armor is not everywhere and has weak spots and I would be surprise if a few hits don't find a few of them. BBs are surprisingly easy to mission kill even the mightily Yamato which BTW is my 2nd favorite ship after CV-6 but I'm not going to imbue her with superpowers. It a numbers game here, she just simply can't effectively engage more than 1 maybe 2 BBs at once. She would wipe the floor with any other BB 1 on 1 but 6 on 1 is asking too much. Be like a boxer trying to fight 6 other boxers at the same time. She's a great ship, one that I have admired since I first saw pictures of her in my childhood, so graceful looking despite her size. I just can't see how she can overcome the numbers here.

[K Frame]

"Okay, so she's going to a very well armored useless flaming wreck."

 

Dozens of 14" and 16" hits, NONE OF WHICH PENETRATE the armored portions of the ship.

You know, the portions of the ship that keep it fighting and maneuvering.

Boilers? Armored.

Magazines? Armored.

Conning tower/bridge? Armored.

Gun turrets? Armored.

Steering gear? Armored.

Fire control? Armored.

All or nothing armored schemes protect the portions of the ship that keep it moving and keep it fighting.

Fires and damage in the upper works? Annoying, but not a critical impediment to the ship's maneuverability, its speed or its ability to fight.

Yes, hits on the less armored bow or stern can cause flooding, but battleships, even the older American ships, were designed with that possibility in mind and engineered so that hits there would not dramatically affect the ship's performance.

It's also unrealistic to think that the American ships could close to a degree where they could pick and choose hits on the bow/stern.

And, once again, you're overplaying, dramatically, the abilities of American fire control radar, as I have explained below.

Yamato's ability to shrug off NON PENETRATING hits from the American ships would allow it the time and ability to dole out something that the American ships couldn't overcome -- shells that could penetrate the belt and deck armor of any of those WW I-era battleships -- at any engagement range. Including the turret faces.

There would be flaming wreckage, all right, but most of it would be American.

[WLJ]

Okay she's completely totally invulnerable. Go home USN you lose. Run!



I love the ship but she not nearly as invulnerable as you're making her out to be..
There's always the matter of that 2 meter exhaust port  

Lets just agree to disagree here

How the heck did we even sink two of the darn things with less damage that 6 BBs and a dozen or two DDs would be capable of doing to her?
.

[K Frame]

Nowhere did I say that she was completely invulnerable.

You're the one who's giving the American battleships capabilities that they simply don't have in terms of ability to penetrate Yamato's armor.

Take a look at the punishment that Yamato suffered in the actual battle in which it was sunk.

The multiple bomb hits from the 1000 pound armor piercing bombs on the upper works took out numerous secondary armament stations, but there's absolute no evidence that any of them penetrated into vital areas of the ship nor did they take out any of the main gun turrets.

What did the Yamato in were the dozen or so aerial torpedoes.