Pearl Harbor - December 7th, 1941

[WLJ]

Nowhere did I say that she was completely invulnerable.

You're the one who's giving the American battleships capabilities that they simply don't have in terms of ability to penetrate Yamato's armor.

Take a look at the punishment that Yamato suffered in the actual battle in which it was sunk.

The multiple bomb hits from the 1000 pound armor piercing bombs on the upper works took out numerous secondary armament stations, but there's absolute no evidence that any of them penetrated into vital areas of the ship nor did they take out any of the main gun turrets.

What did the Yamato in were the dozen or so aerial torpedoes.

Cough, cough.
I've mentioned the DDs several times. In fact I even said after she's blinded send in the DDs to finish the job

[kgbsquirrel]

Nowhere did I say that she was completely invulnerable.

You're the one who's giving the American battleships capabilities that they simply don't have in terms of ability to penetrate Yamato's armor.

Take a look at the punishment that Yamato suffered in the actual battle in which it was sunk.

The multiple bomb hits from the 1000 pound armor piercing bombs on the upper works took out numerous secondary armament stations, but there's absolute no evidence that any of them penetrated into vital areas of the ship nor did they take out any of the main gun turrets.

What did the Yamato in were the dozen or so aerial torpedoes.

Armor plate is not the perfect shield you are imagining.

[K Frame]

"Cough, cough.
I've mentioned the DDs several times. In fact I even said after she's blinded send in the DDs to finish the job"

Of course the Japanese would NEVER thing of doing any such thing, either...

 

Maybe the Americans should just send in the Space Force to nuke Yamato from orbit? It's the only way to be sure.

The entire premise of the argument has been BB vs BB.

[K Frame]

"Armor plate is not the perfect shield you are imagining."

Nor are the American 14 and 16" shells the invincible lightsabres of righteous democratic might that are being supposed. I'm basing my arguments on KNOWN facts about these shells and their capabilities and the known qualities of the armor that was manufactured for Yamato's sister, Shinano (captured and TESTED by the US Navy after WW II).

Nor is the American fire control radar the all seeing Eye of Sauron. I'm basing my arguments on KNOWN performance of the fire control radars that were on those 6 American ships at that time.


From the actual FACTS, as stated above, we can only infer that, at best, it would be an ugly, ugly situation for the older, slower, less heavily armed, and less well protected American ships.

Would Yamato emerge unscathed? That's ludicrous.

Would the American ships waltz to a quick victory followed by shore leave with beer and topless natives? Equally ludicrous.

The whole time in this discussion I've been talking strictly BB against BB -- capabilities vs capabilities.

Want to make it a pitched battle, fleet vs fleet? That's a different story. But it doesn't change the facts that the American BBs can't penetrate Yamato's armor with the shells they have on hand unless they're within spitting distance.

[bedlamite]

Armor plate is not the perfect shield you are imagining.

It's also not everywhere.

[kgbsquirrel]

It's also not everywhere.

I'd post the New Jersey's curator talking about how the armor only lessened damage or ensured it happened somewhere adjacent but I don't think it would help.  He holds a simplistic and romanticized concept of ship armor.

[TommyGunn]

   In the real world,  we beat the Imperial Japanese into the ground and won the war in 1945.



In the pages of APS,  the war wages on and on and on and on a........   

[RoadKingLarry]

  In the real world,  we beat the Imperial Japanese into the ground and won the war in 1945.



In the pages of APS,  the war wages on and on and on and on a........   

Much like the 9x19 Vs .45 ACP debate. A conflict that has been settled for decades.

[bedlamite]

Much like the 9x19 Vs .45 ACP debate. A conflict that has been settled for decades.

10mm.

[WLJ]

I'll be in the bunker if anyone needs me.

[MechAg94]

This fits with the discussion in this thread so I thought I would drop this here.

Battle of Samar - What if TF34 was there?
https://youtu.be/35yLWdYEbZQ

Drachinifel did this video just a little while back on his analysis of what would have happened if the US battleships had been left behind to protect ships at Leyte Gulf. 


(Pointless arguments should never die!)

[K Frame]

I've not watched the video yet, but had TF 34 still been in the area... it would not have gone well for the Japanese at all.

Just an examination of the battleships involved paints a striking difference...

On the American side there were four of the most modern, capable, and up-to-date battleships in the world: Washington, Alabama, New Jersey, Iowa

All were armed with 16" rifles firing the exceptional super heavy armor piercing shell. More importantly, all were equipped with the best fire control radar in the world, and all four were well armored against the older Japanese ships.

The Japanese fielded 4 battleships as well, the Yamato, Nagato, Kongo, and Haruna. Yamato was armed with 18.1" guns, Kongo and Haruna with 14" guns, and the Nagato with 16" guns. The Kongo, Haruna, and Nagato were all of WW I-era vintage, and their shells weren't particularly well designed, while the American 16" shells could penetrate the armor all of the Japanese ships (except Yamato) at virtually any range.

During the naval battles around Guadacanal the Kirishima (sister to the Kongo and Haruna) hit the USS South Dakota with at least 3, possibly more, 14" shells, which failed to penetrate the SoDak's armor. During the exchange, USS Washington engaged Kirishima at virtually point blank range and savaged her with multiple main and secondary battery hits.

During the actual battle, Kongo had already been slowed by torpedo damage and was struggling to keep up with the rest of the Japanese force.

My guess as to how it would have played out?

Two older Japanese battleships sunk, one older battleship badly damaged (and later sunk by air power) and the Yamato severely damaged by the combined weight of 36 American 16" rifles.

On the American side, 1 badly damaged ship, and three with light to moderate damage.

[kgbsquirrel]

I've not watched the video yet, but had TF 34 still been in the area... it would not have gone well for the Japanese at all.

Just an examination of the battleships involved paints a striking difference...

On the American side there were four of the most modern, capable, and up-to-date battleships in the world: Washington, Alabama, New Jersey, Iowa

All were armed with 16" rifles firing the exceptional super heavy armor piercing shell. More importantly, all were equipped with the best fire control radar in the world, and all four were well armored against the older Japanese ships.

The Japanese fielded 4 battleships as well, the Yamato, Nagato, Kongo, and Haruna. Yamato was armed with 18.1" guns, Kongo and Haruna with 14" guns, and the Nagato with 16" guns. The Kongo, Haruna, and Nagato were all of WW I-era vintage, and their shells weren't particularly well designed, while the American 16" shells could penetrate the armor all of the Japanese ships (except Yamato) at virtually any range.

During the naval battles around Guadacanal the Kirishima (sister to the Kongo and Haruna) hit the USS South Dakota with at least 3, possibly more, 14" shells, which failed to penetrate the SoDak's armor. During the exchange, USS Washington engaged Kirishima at virtually point blank range and savaged her with multiple main and secondary battery hits.

During the actual battle, Kongo had already been slowed by torpedo damage and was struggling to keep up with the rest of the Japanese force.

My guess as to how it would have played out?

Two older Japanese battleships sunk, one older battleship badly damaged (and later sunk by air power) and the Yamato severely damaged by the combined weight of 36 American 16" rifles.

On the American side, 1 badly damaged ship, and three with light to moderate damage.

Drach thinks you're optimistic. 

[K Frame]

Drach thinks you're optimistic. 

OK. Summarize his conclusions for me, as I won't be able to see the video until at least this evening, and probably not until after that.

[kgbsquirrel]

OK. Summarize his conclusions for me, as I won't be able to see the video until at least this evening, and probably not until after that.

The American cruisers and destroyers die.
The Japanese battleships die.
The Japanese cruisers and destroyers die.
New Jersey out for the rest of the war.
Remaining American battleships repair and resume duties.

[K Frame]

OK, basically  in agreement battleship wise... I disagree that Yamato would have been sunk. Well, American air power likely would have finished Yamato off, but I was assessing from primarily a battleship on battleship engagement. So yeah, I can see that eventually the Japanese would have lost all 4 of their battleships.

As far as damage on the American side, our assessments pretty much agree... and by that late in the war a badly damage battleship likely would have been slipped with a very low repair priority.

[MechAg94]

He had the Iowa and New Jersey matched up with the Yamato and Nagato with Washington and Alabama matched up with the older Kongo battleships.  I may get the Iowa's mixed up.  The Iowa and Yamato trade hits with Iowa taking a beating.  The New Jersey savages the Nagato then has forward guns switch to Yamato.  Washington and Alabama make short work of the Kongo's and then fire on the Yamato.  At the end, the destroyer The Sullivan's is called in to put a spread of torpedoes into the Yamato. 

The US destroyers charge into close gunnery range of the Japanese destroyers to keep them from hurting the bigger ships with torpedoes.  The Japanese cruisers outnumber and outgun the US cruisers and savage the US cruisers, but are unable to do it fast enough to affect the battleship fight. 

[K Frame]

Hum... not sure I agree with the cruiser assessment.

At that point in the war I believe that most American heavy cruisers, and a significant number of light cruisers, had been fitted with fire control radar, whereas as far as I can tell, none of the Japanese cruisers had any fire control radar at all.

The Japanese had 8 heavy and light cruisers to TF34's 5, but American fire control radar proved any number of times during the war that it was a game changer against the Japanese.

The wildcard would be the Japanese torpedoes. They had LOTS more torpedoes, and even this late in the war they were still the best torpedoes in the world.

[WLJ]

Hum... not sure I agree with the cruiser assessment.

At that point in the war I believe that most American heavy cruisers, and a significant number of light cruisers, had been fitted with fire control radar, whereas as far as I can tell, none of the Japanese cruisers had any fire control radar at all.

The Japanese had 8 heavy and light cruisers to TF34's 5, but American fire control radar proved any number of times during the war that it was a game changer against the Japanese.

The wildcard would be the Japanese torpedoes. They had LOTS more torpedoes, and even this late in the war they were still the best torpedoes in the world.

That may come down to how good, if any, of a smoke screen the Americans can lay. Japanese optical fire control was top notch, probably the best in the world. Their radar fire control was rudimentary at best.

Now do this fight with Musashi still in the game.

[WLJ]

Honestly I wonder if Lee would focus two on Yamato after getting a good look at how big she is and deal with the 14" BBs later.
The Americans still thought the Yamato's were ~ 40,000 toners armed with 16" guns at the time but after getting a good looks at her compared to the other BBs Lee may realize she definitely isn't ~40k. Lots of throws of the dice in this.

[K Frame]

No matter what the scenario, based on where the Japanese ships were coming from in relation to US forces, the US would have been in a fairly decent position to cross the Japanese T and maintain that cross for a relatively significant amount of time like Oldendorf's fleet did during the action in Suragio Strait.

You do that and you have 36 16" barrels facing 6 18.1" barrels. Yamato's armor was pretty much proof against even the super heavy 16" shell getting into the vitals, but they would have done a tremendous amount of destruction to the upper works, very possibly taking out Japanese fire control station, radars, and potentially even disabling guns in the main turrets (although the face armor couldn't be penetrated at any distance.

[WLJ]

Also have to consider the fact that Taffy 3 will be unmolested and is probably not going to be content with just watching the show and will be sending in a wave or two of AC. Probably a safe bet a bunch of Tally 3's DDs will join in as well.  Going to be lots of ill tempered fish in the water.

[K Frame]

Also have to consider the unmolested Taffy 3 is not going to be content with just watching the show. Going to be lots of bad tempered fish in the water

You can't launch what you don't have.

Taffy 3 was providing support for the Leyte landings combined with anti-submarine activities.

Their pre-invasion munitions load out maximized high explosive bombs to support troops against land fortifications and depth charges.

They carried virtually no armor piercing bombs or anti-ship torpedoes.

Defending the fleet against Japanese air and sea assets was duty assigned to the fleet carriers.

Wait, I misread your post; I thought you were talking about Taffy 3's air groups.

I actually significantly doubt that the destroyers would have been detached to support the larger surface battle. They would have been maintained in a screen in case the Japanese got through Task Force 34.

[WLJ]

You can't launch what you don't have.

Taffy 3 was providing support for the Leyte landings combined with anti-submarine activities.

Their pre-invasion munitions load out maximized high explosive bombs to support troops against land fortifications and depth charges.

They carried virtually no armor piercing bombs or anti-ship torpedoes.

Defending the fleet against Japanese air and sea assets was duty assigned to the fleet carriers.

Wait, I misread your post; I thought you were talking about Taffy 3's air groups.

I actually significantly doubt that the destroyers would have been detached to support the larger surface battle. They would have been maintained in a screen in case the Japanese got through Task Force 34.

Correct me if I'm wrong but my understanding is that the CVEs did in fact have anti ship ordnance stored on board and that the reason T3 so famously attacked with non anti ship weapons is because that's what the planes were already mostly loaded with for the morning strikes and they had no time to switch while running for their lives. In Drach's scenario they would have had ample warning to have a anti-ship strike ready.

[WLJ]

Sprague was fully aware of his predicament and did not think that his force of “baby flattops” and their escorts would last 15 minutes against the oncoming battleships and cruisers. As soon as the approaching task force was confirmed as Japanese, he “took several defensive actions in quick succession.” He ordered a change in course from north to due east, which pointed Taffy 3 “at full speed toward a friendly rain squall nearby.” The new course also turned his carriers into the wind, and at 6:56 Sprague ordered all carriers to begin launching aircraft for torpedo and bombing attacks against Kurita’s force. A minute later, he ordered the carriers and their escorts to make as much smoke as possible to screen Taffy 3 from the Japanese gunners. A smokescreen offered scant protection against large-caliber enemy shells, but it was better than nothing.

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/fact-one-the-us-navys-most-heroic-stands-was-leyte-gulf-22999