Author Topic: Pearl Harbor - December 7th, 1941 (Read 4818 times)

WLJ · « **Reply #75 on:** May 19, 2021, 12:58:02 PM »

Reading that is refreshing some of my memory of things I haven't read about in decades. The problem wasn't a lack of torpedoes' but a lack of coordination. They were launching planes piecemeal as they ran. Torpedo attacks need mass coordination to be successful against maneuvering ships. With ample warning a full coordinated strike would have been ready at first light

K Frame · « **Reply #76 on:** May 19, 2021, 02:15:54 PM »

Quote from: WLJ on May 19, 2021, 12:39:56 PM

Correct me if I'm wrong but my understanding is that the CVEs did in fact have anti ship ordnance stored on board and that the reason T3 so famously attacked with non anti ship weapons is because that's what the planes were already mostly loaded with for the morning strikes and they had no time to switch while running for their lives. In Drach's scenario they would have had ample warning to have a anti-ship strike ready.

The information that I've seen in the past indicates that Taffy 3's carriers had, at best, 10% of the normal anti-ship load out that they could have carried, giving them, at best, a minimal anti-ship capability because their primary roles in the invasion were beach fortification suppression and submarine patrol.

I've got a pretty comprehensive history of carrier operations at home (massive book). It's got a comprehensive OOB for carrier operations in the Pacific and may have some of the armaments information.

MechAg94 · « **Reply #77 on:** May 19, 2021, 02:17:24 PM »

Quote from: WLJ on May 19, 2021, 12:04:42 PM

Also have to consider the fact that Taffy 3 will be unmolested and is probably not going to be content with just watching the show and will be sending in a wave or two of AC. Probably a safe bet a bunch of Tally 3's DDs will join in as well. Going to be lots of ill tempered fish in the water.

Drachinifel did mention there were 2 other US battleships detached in support that came in after the fact. I assume they would have a few more destroyers and cruisers with them. He did mention Taffy 3 would have organized a couple squadrons to fly over in support, but the main battle would have been over by the time they made it.

K Frame · « **Reply #78 on:** May 19, 2021, 02:27:04 PM »

Quote from: WLJ on May 19, 2021, 12:45:12 PM

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/fact-one-the-us-navys-most-heroic-stands-was-leyte-gulf-22999

Did you read down to this paragraph?

"But these planes were very hurriedly armed and launched and had no time to coordinate their movements, either. Even so, their attacks were aggressive and constant. Most of the Avengers were armed with torpedoes until the supply of torpedoes ran out. Then they were sent out with bombs—any kind of bombs that were available, including 100-pound all-purpose bombs that were designed for hitting small land-based targets."

The escort carriers at Leyte Gulf carried approximately 28 planes each.

IIRC over half of those were Wildcat fighter. But, say, an even division between Avengers and Wildcats, so 14 planes capable of carrying torpedoes.

The fact that they ran out of torpedoes should be very telling just how few were carried during this operation. As designed (and digging WAY into memory) the magazines on an escort carrier, depending on class, could load around 100 aerial torpedoes.

WLJ · « **Reply #79 on:** May 19, 2021, 02:27:21 PM »

Quote from: K Frame on May 19, 2021, 02:15:54 PM

The information that I've seen in the past indicates that Taffy 3's carriers had, at best, 10% of the normal anti-ship load out that they could have carried, giving them, at best, a minimal anti-ship capability because their primary roles in the invasion were beach fortification suppression and submarine patrol.

I've got a pretty comprehensive history of carrier operations at home (massive book). It's got a comprehensive OOB for carrier operations in the Pacific and may have some of the armaments information.

Point is the attacks would then been coordinated instead of piecemeal like they were historically. Even if the CVEs only had 10% of their normal AS loadout you also have to consider they would have been an addition element to the surface attack and would have helped disrupted the Japanese battleline by forcing them to dodge torpedoes.

Quote from: K Frame on May 19, 2021, 02:27:04 PM

Did you read down to this paragraph?

"But these planes were very hurriedly armed and launched and had no time to coordinate their movements, either. Even so, their attacks were aggressive and constant. Most of the Avengers were armed with torpedoes until the supply of torpedoes ran out. Then they were sent out with bombs—any kind of bombs that were available, including 100-pound all-purpose bombs that were designed for hitting small land-based targets."

The escort carriers at Leyte Gulf carried approximately 28 planes each.

IIRC over half of those were Wildcat fighter. But, say, an even division between Avengers and Wildcats, so 14 planes capable of carrying torpedoes.

The fact that they ran out of torpedoes should be very telling just how few were carried during this operation. As designed (and digging WAY into memory) the magazines on an escort carrier, depending on class, could load around 100 aerial torpedoes.

Again, they would have be an additional element to the attack and would have attacked in a coordinated manner instead of piecemeal. I'm more interested in the disruption aspect. Bad idea to stay fix in a battleline with TBs coming at you.

WLJ · « **Reply #80 on:** May 19, 2021, 02:32:59 PM »

Quote from: MechAg94 on May 19, 2021, 02:17:24 PM

Drachinifel did mention there were 2 other US battleships detached in support that came in after the fact. I assume they would have a few more destroyers and cruisers with them. He did mention Taffy 3 would have organized a couple squadrons to fly over in support, but the main battle would have been over by the time they made it.

They would have launched at first light. I think he did that just to keep it purely a surface battle

WLJ · « **Reply #81 on:** May 19, 2021, 02:33:56 PM »

But also again we're throwing dice here and changing one element is going to cause a ripple effect such as if the US had enough warning to move the BBs in the other Taffy's may have been moved into position as well. Taffy 3 wasn't the only one in the area

WLJ · « **Reply #82 on:** May 19, 2021, 02:37:57 PM »

I would like to see someone game this with Musashi & Mutsu in the game if we're changing history here. Lets made it really fun for the Americans.

K Frame · « **Reply #83 on:** May 19, 2021, 02:54:57 PM »

Mutsu blew up in 1943.

Speaking of the Mutsu, interesting photo that I've never seen before. Looks like the B turret given the range finding structure...

Looks like a kid just tossed one of his toys on the floor...

K Frame · « **Reply #84 on:** May 19, 2021, 02:56:28 PM »

Quote from: WLJ on May 19, 2021, 02:33:56 PM

But also again we're throwing dice here and changing one element is going to cause a ripple effect such as if the US had enough warning to move the BBs in the other Taffy's may have been moved into position as well. Taffy 3 wasn't the only one in the area

True. The Nimitz had just come back through the time vortex and was busy loading Harpoons...

WLJ · « **Reply #85 on:** May 19, 2021, 03:00:43 PM »

Quote from: K Frame on May 19, 2021, 02:54:57 PM

Mutsu blew up in 1943.

I know. And Musashi was already on the bottom. But I threw the dice and........ I'm just having a little fun with this.

Oh and let's have South Dakota blow her fuses again just to see the look on the Captain's face

WLJ · « **Reply #86 on:** May 19, 2021, 03:01:24 PM »

Quote from: K Frame on May 19, 2021, 02:56:28 PM

True. The Nimitz had just come back through the time vortex and was busy loading Harpoons...

"Special" delivery from the Instant Sunrise Company coming right up.

K Frame · « **Reply #87 on:** May 19, 2021, 03:06:22 PM »

I wonder how USS Constitution would have fared against Yamato... I'm betting pretty well.

"And Musashi was already on the bottom."

Whoops. I had my dates switched.

kgbsquirrel · « **Reply #88 on:** May 19, 2021, 03:09:35 PM »

Quote from: WLJ on May 19, 2021, 03:01:24 PM

"Special" delivery from the Instant Sunrise Company coming right up.

"Set condition November throughout the ship."

WLJ · « **Reply #89 on:** May 19, 2021, 03:10:39 PM »

Quote from: K Frame on May 19, 2021, 03:06:22 PM

I wonder how USS Constitution would have fared against Yamato... I'm betting pretty well.

"And Musashi was already on the bottom."

Whoops. I had my dates switched.

She would have crossed her T and raked her right before getting run over. Afterwards the Yamato's crew sent out some poor schmuck with a paint bush.

WLJ · « **Reply #90 on:** May 19, 2021, 05:52:42 PM »

Of course if I had been quicker on the draw with that question I would have said something along the lines it depends on who fires first, Constitution with a spread of photon torpedoes followed by phasers or Yamato with her Wave Motion Gun