Author Topic: Banned from Vegas Casino (Read 6097 times)

Werewolf · « **on:** January 11, 2006, 11:52:09 AM »

I'm sitting here watching a show on the History Channel about a group of MIT guys who figured out how to beat the odds at casino blackjack tables.

Card Counting. By the casino's admission it is neither illegal nor is it cheating.

SO HOW IN THE HELL DO THEY GET AWAY WITH BANNING PEOPLE WHO DO IT?

I don't get it. Win too much at Black Jack and out you go. Why don't they just do a shuffle of a single deck after every deal. With a machine it wouldn't take more than a second or two and would render counting a null strategy (each deal becomes independent of the others like shooting dice or tossing a coin). Or just use a 20 or 30 deck bin from which to deal which wouldn't render counting a null strategy but would make the long run (which card counters use) time horizon so far out there as to make counting ineffective.

How can they legitimately toss someone based on a tresspass statute when the casino is a public business that invites the public in - hell it couldn't exist without the public.

I just do not get it?

Art Eatman · « **Reply #1 on:** January 11, 2006, 12:11:37 PM »

The casino owners make the rules. No different from posting in a forum on an Internet site. Casino owners view card-counting in the same manner as some sites view foul language.

The reasoning is simple: The whole casino deal is based on known odds, known probabilities. Card-counting changes those odds. If card-counting were allowed, the blackjack tables couldn't make a profit. (Or as much profit, since not all blackjack players are able to do the card-count thing.)

Once you're ousted, a return is by definition trespass. Same for a beer-joint that 86s a drunk.

Art

Declaration Day · « **Reply #2 on:** January 11, 2006, 12:44:47 PM »

Quote from: Werewolf

How can they legitimately toss someone based on a tresspass statute when the casino is a public business that invites the public in - hell it couldn't exist without the public.

Actually a casino is a PRIVATE business that invites the public in. As with any private business, they make the rules. Card counting is not illegal, but the casinos frown upon it, and can toss out patrons as they wish.

Felonious Monk/Fignozzle · « **Reply #3 on:** January 11, 2006, 12:51:36 PM »

...by posting the typical sign that says "Management reserves the right to refuse service to anyone, at anytime, for any reason".

The Rabbi · « **Reply #4 on:** January 11, 2006, 01:16:43 PM »

What Art said.

Werewolf · « **Reply #5 on:** January 11, 2006, 04:15:53 PM »

Ahhhhhh....

I get it the casinos not only want the cake but they want to eat it too.

As long as just mostly illiterate chumps play BJ and the house is winning it's OK...

Sounds more like a fixed table than casino vs player.

The Rabbi · « **Reply #6 on:** January 11, 2006, 04:49:56 PM »

Quote from: Werewolf

Ahhhhhh....

I get it the casinos not only want the cake but they want to eat it too.

As long as just mostly illiterate chumps play BJ and the house is winning it's OK...

Sounds more like a fixed table than casino vs player.

I could recommend an easy option for this "dilemma" but you probably already know what it is.

Firethorn · « **Reply #7 on:** January 11, 2006, 05:23:46 PM »

Quote from: Werewolf

Ahhhhhh....

I get it the casinos not only want the cake but they want to eat it too.

As long as just mostly illiterate chumps play BJ and the house is winning it's OK...

Sounds more like a fixed table than casino vs player.

That's the way it's always been.

Guest · « **Reply #8 on:** January 11, 2006, 06:15:13 PM »

Card counters are not a "protected class".

If businesses discriminate against "protected classes" (race, religion, disability, gender to a slightly lesser degree) they're toast.

Short of that, "their way goes".

Chris Rhines · « **Reply #9 on:** January 11, 2006, 06:59:04 PM »

Quote

Why don't they just do a shuffle of a single deck after every deal.

A lot of casinos do exactly that. Worse, they don't allow new players to enter the game mid-deck - only after the deck is shuffled. Makes card-counting impossible.

That said, casinos don't care for card-counters. But they LOVE guys who think that they can count cards...

- Chris

Art Eatman · « **Reply #10 on:** January 12, 2006, 06:50:03 AM »

Werewolf, at the crap table, when you first pick up the dice, the odds are 3% against you, even before you roll. After you roll, they get worse.

For an 8 or 6 as a point, the odds are 6:5 against you. 9 or 5, 3:2. 4 or 10, 2:1.

If you bet on a deuce or a twelve, the odds are 36:1 for any one roll. The house pays 30.

The whole deal is, THE HOUSE WINS.

Old joke from 50 years back: "I came to Vegas in a $5,000 vehicle, and left in a $50,000 vehicle. I drove my car here; I left on a Greyhound."

Art

280plus · « **Reply #11 on:** January 12, 2006, 06:55:41 AM »

Quote

Sounds more like a fixed table than casino vs player.

I learned that a LONG time ago. Hence the reason I never gamble in casinos.

The thing that fouled up the MIT group is they got greedy. They were hitting too many houses for too much and up went the red flags. They could have played that scam for years if they had been more careful.

Werewolf · « **Reply #12 on:** January 12, 2006, 07:14:32 AM »

Quote from: 280plus

Quote

Sounds more like a fixed table than casino vs player.

I learned that a LONG time ago. Hence the reason I never gamble in casinos.

The thing that fouled up the MIT group is they got greedy. They were hitting too many houses for too much and up went the red flags. They could have played that scam for years if they had been more careful.

Scam has such negative conotations. The casino invites the public in to play black jack. It seems though if one is capable of adding numbers greater than 1 together and keeping track of a running sum that you aren't welcome.

That just seems wrong to me. I understand that casinos are a business. They exist to make a profit and that's a good thing. But discriminating against good players is BS! Don't offer the game if the house odds are too low or even switch to the player's favor. Otherwise put a sign over the BJ tables that says Losers Only - all OTHERS need not APPLY.

And I do understand house odds - which is why I stick to the live poker tables and if I get a wild hair then craps in casinos that allow double odds (house odds can get as low as .5% on a craps table like that). All the rest are sucker games for entertainment only - like the slots - which my wife and father in law both love.

But I suppose this is little more than pissing in the wind because it isn't ever gonna change.

Interesting subject though.

The Rabbi · « **Reply #13 on:** January 12, 2006, 08:14:59 AM »

Ever hear of the "Golden Rule"??

Nathaniel Firethorn · « **Reply #14 on:** January 12, 2006, 08:24:46 AM »

Uhm, Rabbi, I'm having a problem understanding exactly how it would apply to a card counter and a casino. Presumably it applies to both.

- NF

The Rabbi · « **Reply #15 on:** January 12, 2006, 09:17:35 AM »

Then you've never heard of the golden rule:

"He who has the gold, makes the rules."

Casinos could have a rule barring people from winning more than $10 if they wanted. They could have a rule that "house wins" on every hand if they wanted. People are free to spend their time and money elsewhere.

Nathaniel Firethorn · « **Reply #16 on:** January 12, 2006, 10:10:36 AM »

Oh, I thought you were talking about doing unto others before they do unto you. Cheesy

- NF

The Rabbi · « **Reply #17 on:** January 12, 2006, 10:24:22 AM »

Quote from: Nathaniel Firethorn

Oh, I thought you were talking about doing unto others before they do unto you. Cheesy

- NF

Thats "Rabbi's Second Rule"

Werewolf · « **Reply #18 on:** January 12, 2006, 11:24:01 AM »

Quote from: The Rabbi

Quote from: Nathaniel Firethorn

Oh, I thought you were talking about doing unto others before they do unto you. Cheesy

- NF

Thats "Rabbi's Second Rule"

Imagine how interesting the world would be if that were everyone's first rule...

mhdishere · « **Reply #19 on:** January 12, 2006, 12:36:53 PM »

One reminder that'll put everything into perspective. Go to Vegas, look around, all the neon, free or cheap rooms, free or cheap all-you-can-eat buffets, live shows, etc etc etc. Vegas' electric bill alone must be higher than most European nations GDP.

All that is paid for by people who lost their money.

280plus · « **Reply #20 on:** January 12, 2006, 01:15:49 PM »

Quote

Scam has such negative conotations.

I agree, I couldn't come up with a better term at the time. How about we call it a "strategy"?

Cheesy

Chris Rhines · « **Reply #21 on:** January 12, 2006, 04:14:24 PM »

That's exactly what it is, a betting strategy. There are others, none will swing the odds in your favor.

- Chris

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Author Topic: Banned from Vegas Casino (Read 6097 times)

Felonious Monk/Fignozzle

Guest