Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: castle key on July 29, 2013, 11:52:52 AM
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I lose power often in my house and I am looking at getting a generator. I am looking for help in figuring out what I need.
I have natural gas service at my house.
I would like to be able to power the AC in the Summer, a big freezer, the kitchen refrigerator, the stove or oven (electric), a couple of outlets, tv set or computer, and in the Winter, the furnace blower (gas heat).
A bit more juice would be nice but not huge.
I am pretty certain that I need a permenently mounted unit, transfer switching system, a sub panel, and a few other odds and ends.
The main stuff I am looking for is what brands of generators I should consider and how much "beef" the unit should have to run what I want to run.
In the perfect world, I want to be the guy during the Summer who has the only house in the neighborhood with lights on and the AC cranking the temp so low that ice is forming on the windows while I sit there sipping a cool martini!!
Other than that, basic comfort would work also.
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You need a make-break-make transfer switch, for starters. Complete disconnect of city power, and every circuit in your house then shifts to draw off your generator.
Given that most AC systems are on a 60 amp line, then the air handler is often another separate 60 amp line, I think you're looking at a 15,000 watt unit.
You'll want to go diesel for fuel storage stability.
Not sure how 240/120v requirements come into play in something like this.
ETA: I've had worksites with units like this. A couple of datacenters with autoswitching diesel backup generator sets, and when I worked security at my college campus we had one for our office and radio system. 15,000 watts and bigger is basically mounted on a small trailer or a concrete pad and sized on par with an AC unit.
Crap like this:
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Generac-GP-15-000-Watt-Gasoline-Powered-Portable-Generator-with-OHVI-Engine-5734/100662532
Won't cut it. It'll work, but it'll have irregular output. Your clocks will run funny. Computers won't like it.
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You'll want to go diesel for fuel storage stability.
I was thinking the natural gas type units would be best for me so I don't need to store fuel.
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I was thinking the natural gas type units would be best for me so I don't need to store fuel.
Good point. That would work good too.
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Boudica and Quinn on side-by-side treadmills.
Power the neighborhood.
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If you forgo the AC and Electric stove your power requirements are greatly reduced. I've got a 10Kw which is enough to power two sump pumps (bad weather generally being the reason we lose power here), the fridge and freezer. I can also power my dialysis machine (with doesn't draw much). To figure out what you need simply add up the wattage of everything you want to power and and 15% (for start-up surges). A rough, back of the envelope, pulling numbers out of my butt shows a 30-36Kw draw. However, you can plug in your data and get better numbers here:
http://www.generac.com/Residential/Sizer/
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In this area, foregoing AC is not a good idea.
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You can live without AC. Humans managed to for centuries. ;)
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You can live with AC. Humans managed to for centuries. ;)
But think of the big hairy hounds!! really, need ac for them...
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Oh sure we can.
But we also sure as hell don't want to.
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I had a generator installed this winter. It is only a 8,000 watt portable, but it is enough to keep us warm and fed in the winter.
The switching system is cool. On the new subpanel, I throw only the switches I want powered. I don't have to touch the main breaker box. The subpanel also has a built in watt meter that shows my actual draw.
Castle Key, you'll need one of the small car-size engines and a professional installation.
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http://www.generac.com/Residential/HomeBackupSystems/
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Figure out your utilization. Either from adding up all of your necessary appliances, or by looking at your power bill and juggling the math. Add 10% ish. 20% if you have the cash. Should put you in the 20Kw ish range.
Decide if you want automated or manual. Automated is nice, but more expensive. Either way, you'll need an electrician to do the install.
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I get along okay with a 2800W (115V only) generator-inverter, but I have to be careful how many things I turn on at the same time, and don't use things like the microwave or electric toaster or coffeemaker. I've done a few practice runs to make sure. Never really needed the generator for more than half a day here.
Whatever you get, natural gas is the way to go -- or multifuel as long as that includes NG and propane. My generator is gasoline-only, and it sucks trying to keep fresh gas rotated and stored. (I should get a NG conversion kit... but I don't have NG piped to the garage or back yard, and I so seldom need a generator it's hardly worth it)
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I think the longest Castle Key has ever lost power was a bit over a week after an ice storm in the mid 1990s. They had a fireplace and lots of wood, but it went on long enough that we were making plans for draining the water lines in the house because the core temp was starting to get too low to sustain.
They suffered through several days of incredible heat after last year's Derecho, though.
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What's the probability of losing both electric and NG ???
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What's the probability of losing both electric and NG ???
=|
Some of us remember the Big One of '11. The devastation. The horror. There are rumors that DC resorted to cannibalism following the quake.
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi0.kym-cdn.com%2Fphotos%2Fimages%2Foriginal%2F000%2F166%2F048%2Fearthquake08232011-neverforget.jpg&hash=b268cf398afb92e2ca1e2c1adac9fa864b4d094b)
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If you are absolutely committed to your current lifestyle (AC, electric stove/oven/water heat), you're gonna pay a ton. 20kw might not be enough, without careful attention to when the stuff is running. If you include a dryer... well hell, you've prob'ly got a 200amp service entrance to the house. x 220v, you're looking at theoretical max of 40kw plus. :O
If you can afford THAT... knock yourself out. You'll be the life of the party when the power fails, for sure.
Per an earlier question, if there's a no-poop-this-is-the-end sort of grid-down outage lasting more than a day or two, expect the NG to quit flowing as well for physical, political, and social reasons.
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ETA: I've had worksites with units like this. A couple of datacenters with autoswitching diesel backup generator sets, and when I worked security at my college campus we had one for our office and radio system. 15,000 watts and bigger is basically mounted on a small trailer or a concrete pad and sized on par with an AC unit.
All my worksites have backup gen sets. One little wide spot town had a problem severeal years ago with power feeding the town, our generator was kicking on a couple times a week. I'd get dispatched to verify proper operation. One afternoon I pulled up and the old fellow from next door was all over me about it. He was pissed because everytime our generator came on they lost power. :facepalm:
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"Per an earlier question, if there's a no-poop-this-is-the-end sort of grid-down outage lasting more than a day or two, expect the NG to quit flowing as well for physical, political, and social reasons."
As I noted earlier, they've lost power for close to a week a couple of times in the years that they've lived there.
They've never lacked for hot water, though, as the natural gas has continue to flow unabated.
A coworker of mine some years ago did lose power and natural gas after the storm surge from Hurricane Isabel in 2003? got up into their community and wreaked more than a little havoc. But Castle Key's place is more than high enough to avoid that happening.
Unless the polar ice caps melt.
And then Castle Key, Mtnbkr, and I are all in a world of hurt.
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If you are absolutely committed to your current lifestyle (AC, electric stove/oven/water heat), you're gonna pay a ton. 20kw might not be enough, without careful attention to when the stuff is running. If you include a dryer... well hell, you've prob'ly got a 200amp service entrance to the house. x 220v, you're looking at theoretical max of 40kw plus. :O
If you can afford THAT... knock yourself out. You'll be the life of the party when the power fails, for sure.
Per an earlier question, if there's a no-poop-this-is-the-end sort of grid-down outage lasting more than a day or two, expect the NG to quit flowing as well for physical, political, and social reasons.
Generec website said: 18-25KW for all those electrical needs.
Up North natural gas still flows even after everything else is knocked out.
100lbs of propane will get you a few days run time if you are that worried, I think its just a simple orifice jet change in the injector/carburetor on most gensets.
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Natural gas is the way to go as long as you are not in an earthquake prone area.
I run a 5500 watt portable because we don't have NG. I looked into the propane units but they burn way more than gasoline especially in the dollar per hour aspect. I typically burn about 8-10 gallons per 24 hours. Thats when I'm at home because work is closed. A little less once we stop using stuff around the house.
I run 2 fridges, 1 1/2hp sump pump, and blower on the gas hot air furnace.
I installed a interlock device in my main panel, so every circuit has power in the house if I want it. I can walk around use any light and any outlet.
Now granted I know I can't use the electric range or dryer. But I can use the microwave, coffee maker, and stuff like that.
I have carefully run 1 burner on the electric stove and done a load of dishes in the dishwasher. Not at the same time and with almost everything else off.
When we have lost power during the hurricane force rain storms the sump pump is fine, after the rain is passed I unplug the regular sump pump and let the battery unit take care of the water if need be. The battery charger does not use much power and has no start surge like the 1/2hp regular pump.
You have to look more realistically into what you want to power. Big things in the equation are the stove and AC.
Depending on the size of the a/c is going to be the biggest hog.
You don't necessarily need to be able to power both. Say you want to cook, turn of the a/c for a bit.
Or calculate the range on maybe on using the oven or 2 burners max.
The 2 most common brands of bigger generators you will see are Generac and Kohler. Kohler makes a better unit from what I have heard. Most of the bigger ones will use a GMC engine in them. You should look into 20-30 kw range. Expect to spend at least 5-10k on a unit.
20kw
http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200448671_200448671
30 kw
http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200481398_200481398
If you want to look at other brands, Onan, and Caterpillar are great also. But big bucks
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I think Castle Key could get along very nicely without having to throw the stove into the equation. He's got a couple of BBQ grills, including a Green Egg, so he can cook just fine.
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"Per an earlier question, if there's a no-poop-this-is-the-end sort of grid-down outage lasting more than a day or two, expect the NG to quit flowing as well for physical, political, and social reasons."
As I noted earlier, they've lost power for close to a week a couple of times in the years that they've lived there.
I stand by my statement. The reason gas kept flowing is because other areas were unaffected, and could supply gas, maintenance crews, etc. If zombies(*) are walking, ain't nothing gonna flow, for long.
(*) obligatory explanation that "zombies" is an intellectual shorthand for "planetary autoclave in progress, please stand by".
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If zombies are walking ;/, chances of being able to replace gasoline or diesel is going to be pretty damned slim to nonexistent.
If the situation is that catastrophic, that's when it's time to unass the area.
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(*) obligatory explanation that "zombies" is an intellectual shorthand for "planetary autoclave in progress, please stand by".
Is birdman playing with relativistic dust again?
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I stand by my statement. The reason gas kept flowing is because other areas were unaffected, and could supply gas, maintenance crews, etc. If zombies(*) are walking, ain't nothing gonna flow, for long.
(*) obligatory explanation that "zombies" is an intellectual shorthand for "planetary autoclave in progress, please stand by".
Mike's right. If it's end of the world, who cares? Problem with a lotta prep/survival folks is they do their thing for the LEAST likely scenarios and do not "prep" for the MORE likely scenarios. Personally, I'm just going with gasoline. Probably a 10Kw unit, wired to my garage. I'll price compare between automated transfer switch and manual transfer switch.
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I stand by my statement. The reason gas kept flowing is because other areas were unaffected, and could supply gas, maintenance crews, etc. If zombies(*) are walking, ain't nothing gonna flow, for long.
(*) obligatory explanation that "zombies" is an intellectual shorthand for "planetary autoclave in progress, please stand by".
A generator that size is going to consume ~1.5 gallons of diesel per hour under load, so you probably using up to 30 gallons of fuel a day. Diesel has a shelf life of 18-24 months without any additives and many urban areas have ordinances against large fuel storage tanks on properties zones residential. Also your homeowners insurance may be voided if they discover more than a few gallons of fuel stored on your property.
If TIKIWIKI does occur, good luck getting any sort of fuel, but in areas not prone to earthquakes that have residential NG more than likely NG will continue to flow unless something disrupts the lines. Where I live, in Iowa there is NG storage everywhere, above ground and below ground. I image the same for other places. Its good to live in flyover country.
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In a pinch, you can connect a propane or NG container directly to your generator. Assuming your generator is set up to handle said fuel.
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"Problem with a lotta prep/survival folks is they do their thing for the LEAST likely scenarios and do not "prep" for the MORE likely scenarios."
Winner Winner Chicken Dinner!
Before I got totally disgusted with it, I'd occasionally watch that shop Preppers and laugh my ass off at some of those idiots.
Some of them were literally preparing for the combined "Sharknado + Nookulur Locusts + New Madrid Earthquake + Instant Polar Ice Cap Melt + SARS + Collapse of Fiat Currency + Chinese Invasion + 190 deg. F heatwave + 24 feet of Ice and Snow + Mormons" disaster happening on the same *expletive deleted*ing day.
Castle Key has been in his house for quite awhile. He knows what the baseline parameters are for his area regarding availability of natural gas, electric, and water over that time. I think I'm pretty safe in saying that neither natural gas nor water have been affected in that time, but electric has gone out repeatedly, and a number of times for the better part of a week, or more.
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If zombies are walking ;/, chances of being able to replace gasoline or diesel is going to be pretty damned slim to nonexistent.
If the situation is that catastrophic, that's when it's time to unass the area.
You are correct in all particulars. If that happens, it's time to open the second envelope. Set condition one throughout the ship, unmask the main battery, and train it out along the main threat axis. (I just loves me some pseudo Navy-speak)
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Castle Key and I chatted briefly about this on the way to work this morning.
His assessment is that the absolutely critical devices to be powered by a gen would be (and I have to agree with him):
1. Household AC
2. Freezer
Everything else is a nicety.
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In defense of the doomsday prepper, the calculation is: what the chance is of a Bad Thing happening, vs the consequence of the Bad Thing if it should occur. My favorite (stolen) expression is: It ain't the odds that bother me, it's the stakes we're playing for.
I do chuckle at the notion that some folks are "prepared" to deal with Red Dawn, but couldn't jump start their car if they had to.
Regarding priorities listed, I'd add convenience lighting. If you have any home security gear, I'd move that up as well. Both of those are rounding errors, compared to home A/C.
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If you have any home security gear, I'd move that up as well.
The home security monitoring system does not need a steady flow of electricity but depends on the continual supply of meat products! The system does however prefer cooler environmental conditions coupled with fresh water.
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My parents were w/o electricity for about 2 weeks after Hurricane Ike. They had 2 portable generators and lots of extensions cords. They *thought* they had a lot of gasoline, but it goes pretty fast. They would have run out if my uncle hadn't brought them another 10 or 20 gallons (probably siphoned out the Cadillac he had at the time), and even then it was close. After that is when I got my little Yamaha generator instead of a 5500W generator that cost half as much; it sips gas rather than guzzles it. But the gas will still run out if the power is out too long.
I really don't know why the gas stations don't open sooner, using their own generator to power the pumps, lights, and a cash register. Maybe they figure they'll run out of gas in a day (a hard day's work) and then won't be able to get another truckload in so what's the point.
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In defense of the doomsday prepper, the calculation is: what the chance is of a Bad Thing happening, vs the consequence of the Bad Thing if it should occur. My favorite (stolen) expression is: It ain't the odds that bother me, it's the stakes we're playing for.
I do chuckle at the notion that some folks are "prepared" to deal with Red Dawn, but couldn't jump start their car if they had to.
Regarding priorities listed, I'd add convenience lighting. If you have any home security gear, I'd move that up as well. Both of those are rounding errors, compared to home A/C.
Wait, you are saying preparedness doesn't mean only guns and beef jerky?????
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"In defense of the doomsday prepper, the calculation is: what the chance is of a Bad Thing happening, vs the consequence of the Bad Thing if it should occur."
Actually, I think the proper equation is more likely...
Rampant Paranoia X Social Disaffection Level / Black Helicopters3
As that output of that function approaches 1, hilarity ensues, and that shows was always hilarious. In a sad panda kinda way.
"It ain't the odds that bother me, it's the stakes we're playing for."
Yeah, and that's the problem... These are the guys who are standing on the sideline screaming in the coach's ear "PUT ME IN PUT ME IN PUT ME IN!" and who tear the *expletive deleted*it out of their knee just trying to get to the huddle... ;/
Literally all I could think of when watching that show was tactical wheelbarrows and debarked chihuahuas...
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Literally all I could think of when watching that show was tactical wheelbarrows and debarked chihuahuas...
I'm glad I'm not the only one.
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So ok all you smarties. If I have an A/C compressor that has an RLA of 15 and a LRA of 63. How many amps will it draw on start up. It so happens I had to answer this one today. Not sure I have it right but I'm sure I have enough. LOL
Stove, nothing says you use the whole stove on the generator. I've used a couple burners and all I have is a 5KW. Judicious plugging and unplugging is the key. Also I have a water pump, to me THAT is the most important. I tried lugging water to flush. Lots of work. I also got myself into the habit of rationing the juice. Turn the generator off between meals etc. Saves a lot of fuel.
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Update: research is telling me LRA IS Startup amps. ;)
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Rampant Paranoia X Social Disaffection Level / Black Helicopters3
What if you're rampantly paranoid, socially disaffected and made dark green helicopters1 instead of black helicopters?
1 I keep asking the dark green helicopter folks to keep an eye out for black helicopters. No luck thus far. =|
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Well, there's a reason that we decided to put in a deep well hand pump instead of buy a generator. ;)
Of course there is no NG service within 40 miles.
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"In defense of the doomsday prepper, the calculation is: what the chance is of a Bad Thing happening, vs the consequence of the Bad Thing if it should occur."
Actually, I think the proper equation is more likely...
Rampant Paranoia X Social Disaffection Level / Black Helicopters3
As that output of that function approaches 1, hilarity ensues, and that shows was always hilarious. In a sad panda kinda way.
"It ain't the odds that bother me, it's the stakes we're playing for."
Yeah, and that's the problem... These are the guys who are standing on the sideline screaming in the coach's ear "PUT ME IN PUT ME IN PUT ME IN!" and who tear the *expletive deleted* out of their knee just trying to get to the huddle... ;/
Literally all I could think of when watching that show was tactical wheelbarrows and debarked chihuahuas...
Mike, you could take the fun out of a parade.
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Mike, you could take the fun out of a parade.
My job here is done!
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Mike, you could take the fun out of a parade.
To do anything WELL, you do need to take some of the fun out of it and substitute craftsmanship. We all like shooting, but to get to the top tiers, it's a lot of work.
Most preppers would be dead in any serious SHTF scenerio and their assets would be added to the nearest warlord.
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The cost of a new NG oven/range is probably less than the price differential between a generator that can run your AC and a generator that can run your AC and your electric oven/range.
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The generator isn't being purchased to run the stove.
It's being purchased to provide electric to the AC / heating system.
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The generator isn't being purchased to run the stove.
Of course it isn't. That would be crazy. Much more sense to get a gas stove.