Personal Defense Options for the Gunshy?

[SADShooter]

My wife has befirended a middle-aged female neighbor whose work is adjacent to elevated risk crime areas. She probably won't own or use a firearm, and I was asked to offer other options (aside from running shoes and a whistle). I don't believe she carries a knife or could handle an impact weapon.

I know there are credible pepper spray options (Fox Labs?), but I'd like to hear any specific recommendations on that in terms of specific deployments or perhaps viable stun devices.

Thanks.

[Devonai]

Having been pepper sprayed myself for my job, I can attest that it sucks.  Unfortunately, if my goal was murder it would not stop me or even slow me down.  Ultimately, that's the limitation of pepper spray; one's attacker must be rather wishy-washy about the whole robbery/murder concept in the first place or the attack will still occur.

As a rape defense weapon, however, it would be very effective.  The limitation there is blow-back onto the defender, which seems inevitable in most close circumstances.  Still, I would rather get a small dose of spray than succumb to the attack.

If you can't talk her into a firearm/training, I suggest pepper spray and a flashlight that doubles as an impact weapon.  Spray the guy then whack him in the face/temple with the strike bezel until he changes his mind (or it comes out his ears).  If she is too squeamish for impact weapons then you have to talk her into some training.

[Standing Wolf]

If she wants a competitive advantage against the predators, she'll set aside her prejudices and invest in a firearm, safety training, et cetera. If other stuff were effective, we'd carry other stuff instead of guns.

[BridgeRunner]

Depends on the workplace.  A prof of mine used to work for legal aid.  The rear entrance used by employees was both dark and openly marked as the entrance to legal aid.

She represented a lot of people in domestic violence situations. 

She got some lighting added and some signage removed.  If the woman works in a small enough place, her concerns might be addressed by owner/management.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

If she wants a competitive advantage against the predators, she'll set aside her prejudices and invest in a firearm, safety training, et cetera. If other stuff were effective, we'd carry other stuff instead of guns.

Other stuff is effective, which is why we carry it in addition to guns.

I like guns, don't get me wrong.  But it's a mistake to assume that the only self-defense tool and skill you'll ever want is a gun.

[never_retreat]

Other stuff is effective, which is why we carry it in addition to guns.

I like guns, don't get me wrong.  But it's a mistake to assume that the only self-defense tool and skill you'll ever want is a gun.

Yes lets not overlook hand grenades and shoulder fired missiles.

[AJ Dual]

The classes where they tell you to put your keys between your fingers when walking to your car, and the guy wearing the red-suit at the YMCA gives her a bear hug and she screams "NO NO NO!" etc. and kicks his instep, groin, and then does a nose-palm is an okay start... However, that's not going to prepare her (or anyone) for the guy who grabs her and throws her against the bedroom dresser or the sidewalk, either with air-time, or just down with a full-force tackle/push if she's a bit heavier. (Much less the type of guy who prefers to start with a full punch to the face...)

Kind of like the difference between when playing wrestling with your significant other, and she gets a bit aggressive thinking she might actually overpower you, so you ramp it up, then before you know it she's going "OW!" and is all mad at you.  

If you don't find some physical self-defense training where they get you over that hump, then I'd spend all time and effort on lighting, planning, awareness, physical security, bushes & locks, and pepper spray.

[Gowen]

Ever see Death Wish 3, just set up her house like they did in that movie.  Anybody trying to get in will pull out a stump.

[AZRedhawk44]

She probably won't own or use a firearm, and I was asked to offer other options (aside from running shoes and a whistle). I don't believe she carries a knife or could handle an impact weapon.

Yeesh... hard to imagine someone who disapproves of firearms, trying to use a knife for self defense.  If you can't point and click then there's sure as heck no way you'll slice and dice.  I carry a knife (along with a gun) daily as a tool.  No way I'd try to use it as a defensive or offensive weapon.  Aside from my lacking any technical skill... it's MESSY.

How about a taser?

[Boomhauer]

Sabre Red pepperspray is what I carry when not in a firearms permissive environment.

The Taser C2...well, see RevDisk's thoughts on that. Not a good idea...

[AJ Dual]

Ever see Death Wish 3, just set up her house like they did in that movie.  Anybody trying to get in will pull out a stump.

I learned how to make blowguns as a kid from watching that movie on cable TV... 

[Balog]

If she wants a competitive advantage against the predators, she'll set aside her prejudices and invest in a firearm, safety training, et cetera. If other stuff were effective, we'd carry other stuff instead of guns.

Ayup. Aside from knives, all the other self-defense thingies are "less-lethal" and not as effective at reducing threats. People carry them to have an alternative to lethal force, not because they offer any other advantages over guns.

I needd to search out Rev's thoughts on Tasers, it is good stuff.

[vaskidmark]

Once again I go into full rant mode.  Get your popcorn, pull up a chair and watch the show.

Self defense is NOT about the tools/implements, but about the mindset.

If you are not willing to commit mayhem in defense of your person, you need to get a couple of extra sets of dogtags and lace them into your shoes, your belt, and a few other places so we can tell who you were.

Self defense is about boundaries - not only the physical space around you, but the behavior you refuse to accept.  Verbal Judo is one of several techniques that may help you set a behavioral boundary without escalating to a full-on confrontation, but only if you are dealing with someone who also respects boundaries.  Your average mugger, rapist and ax-murderer do not respect boundaries that are not defended with force.

My wife has befirended a middle-aged female neighbor whose work is adjacent to elevated risk crime areas.

  Question #1 - has this elderly lady managed to avoid any personal crime so far?  If so, how has she done that?  Question #2 - Why has your wife picked this elderly lady to befriend?  Is there a personal project at work here?

Question #3 - has this elderly lady asked for any help in avoiding being a crime victim?

skidmark's commentary about crime victimhood and society:  I am adamantly opposed to encouraging those who do not actively seek out information, instruction or advice on how to decrease the odds that they will be the victim of a personal attack.  I subscribe to the "herd theory" and have no wish to move any further down the chain than I already am in regards to being old, weak, and (relatively) powerless against predators.  I feel sorry for those who are weaker than me and do not choose to take steps to protect themselves, but that is a choice they are responsible for.  If asked, I will offer my best assistance in helping someone become more able to defend themself within whatever limitations they impose on themself - with one caveat.  They must be willing to take that self defense to the uttermost limit of, if necessary, killing another human being.  If they draw a line short of that, then it says to me that they do not really want to defend themself, but rather want to pose and posture in the hope that they can bluff their way out of a situation.

Yes, bluffs work.  Most of the time.  But if your bluff does not work you are left with two extreme options - running away faster and farther than that which you were trying to bluff, or incapacitating them before they incapacitate you.[/rant]

Let's go back to Question #1 again.  How has this elderly lady managed to not be a crime victim so far?  If it seems to be working, does she really need to do anything else?

stay safe.

skidmark

[SADShooter]

Thanks for the replies. This individual is a fellow dog owner in our apartment complex. I use the term befriended to indicate regular communication and support/information as appropriate, not a close friend or "project". She is liberal, but not in a full condition white mindset. Her work location (law firm) has relocated adjacent to an area where she has observed altercations or possible threatening behavior, increasing her safety concerns. I do not know if she has addressed the issue to her employers.

My wife and I both carry in permissive environments, and have had relevant training. We tend to proselytize on self defense when the subject arises, and appearing to be reasonable and well-informed, we often get requests like this. I don't truly know this woman's willingness to fight for her life, but any advice about tools will come with a stern admonition regarding mindset and commitment.

[Stand_watie]

Thanks for the replies. This individual is a fellow dog owner in our apartment complex..

    Dog owner? (big or scarily perceived) Dog + Physician willing to sign you off as disabled = next most effective thing to a pistol (albeit a lot more work) in deterring bad guys.

[SADShooter]

Sorry. Sweet, 3-legged rescue mutt.

[Jamisjockey]

Anyone afraid or uninterested in using a gun isn't going to find a knife to be a better solution, as its messy and dangerous to engage someone in a knife fight.

Pepper spray or stun gun. 
Down side to pepper spray is that many perpetrators have been sprayed before.  Once you know you're not going to die after being sprayed, its easy to fight through it.  If someone is hopped up on something, they often don't even know they're sprayed.  Also, blowback is an issue.
Stun gun seems like it might fit the bill here.  Bad thing is that it's a contact weapon. 

As skidmark says, hardware is no substitute for software. 

[CAnnoneer]

Somebody like that does not sound like the person ready to do damage to defend herself. So, there are two paths to take:

1) Make her feel safer without real increase in security. Find out what would make her feel safe, no matter how practically pointless. She will roll the same dice as before, but feel much better about it. That is what many people want and how far they are willing to go.

2) See if you can change her mind about defensive options. If she can do that, the sky is the limit. Then the best option would be a low-caliber revolver. This outcome is unlikely as most people, especially older ones, find it difficult to change.

So, try #2 first. If there is no progress, consider #1 and leave it at that.

[longeyes]

Other stuff--spray, taser, et al.--can help but it's not The Equalizer and no one should pretend it is. 

Personally I find a machete rather intimidating...

[Standing Wolf]

Personally I find a machete rather intimidating...

[sincerity] Well, yeah, but isn't there an awful lot of skill required? [/sincerity]

[RaspberrySurprise]

I think more than a few Rwandans would beg to differ.

[longeyes]

Hey, FerFAL recommends them, and they're only $20 on Amazon.

[RaspberrySurprise]

I meant in the needing skill to use department. Though I know it was a joke.

[seeker_two]

Self defense is NOT about the tools/implements, but about the mindset.

If you are not willing to commit mayhem in defense of your person, you need to get a couple of extra sets of dogtags and lace them into your shoes, your belt, and a few other places so we can tell who you were.

Absolutely....if she's not willing to fight to protct her own life, then all the firepower in the world won't help.

Before suggesting any tools, I'd recommend she take some type of self-defense course first. There, she can learn mindset, awareness, and what SD will really take. If she declines, then you can't really do anything for her....