Author Topic: This will make the peak oil loonies crazy  (Read 6194 times)

coppertales

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Re: This will make the peak oil loonies crazy
« Reply #25 on: July 29, 2009, 04:18:45 PM »
The president's cap and trade program, ahd the greenies, will put a stop to such foolish explorations.........chris3

mellestad

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Re: This will make the peak oil loonies crazy
« Reply #26 on: July 29, 2009, 05:03:58 PM »
Hmm, my mistake.

I still think my point is valid though, even half is too much.

I imagine the reason we don't drill more is because it is cheaper to buy import it, which still jives with my overall point.  Energy independence is a good goal.  Even if oil isn't going to run out, I have not heard anyone say we will ever see a drop in production cost again.


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Re: This will make the peak oil loonies crazy
« Reply #27 on: July 29, 2009, 05:23:08 PM »
Hmm, my mistake.

I still think my point is valid though, even half is too much.

True. I'm all for drilling in America and cellulosic biofuels. What's been bugging is that nobody except the Airforce seems to have taken the logical step of turning coal syngas into sythetic petroleum. Its good to hear they're using it for generating electricity, though.

Quote
I imagine the reason we don't drill more is because it is cheaper to buy import it,
I'm pretty sure its actually because the greenies don't want drilling on federal land.

mellestad

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Re: This will make the peak oil loonies crazy
« Reply #28 on: July 29, 2009, 06:12:57 PM »
I'm pretty sure its actually because the greenies don't want drilling on federal land.

You think so?  I know the green movement is vocal, but I don't know if I believe they could stop drilling on Federal land if it would bring a large drop in fuel prices.  I don't think they have that much influence when it comes to an issue that directly impacts the public like that.

thebaldguy

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Re: This will make the peak oil loonies crazy
« Reply #29 on: July 29, 2009, 06:17:40 PM »
I think that there is a lot of oil left. It's just not cost effective at this time and price to get it.

stevelyn

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Re: This will make the peak oil loonies crazy
« Reply #30 on: July 29, 2009, 09:44:50 PM »
I dunno, my thought process is that high oil prices encourage oil alternatives, and the sooner we can get oil alternatives the sooner we, as a nation, can be energy independent.  If we had the capacity to get our national production internally, I might think differently...but everything I have ever seen seems to say that even a best case for full internal production is < 5% of our needs.

Reliance on hostile foreign governments sucks.  I think either algae based bio fuels, or full electric would be best.  Well see if either one ever gets anywhere.

I think we already have plenty of alternatives available, it's just that there is not enough motivation to seriously pursue them.

For starters, the vast majority of power generation should be nuke. We laugh at the French about a lot of things, but they have every right to be smug about nuclear power generation. In this day and age, there is absolutely no reason one drop of petroleum fuel or one lump of coal should be burned to produce electric power unless you're running your own generator off the grid.

Coal liquification and gasification should be undertaken to supplement petroleum supplies and petroleum itself should only be used for transportation purposes and the manufacturing of petroleum by-products.

This would buy us some time to develope real energy alternatives.
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Balog

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Re: This will make the peak oil loonies crazy
« Reply #31 on: July 29, 2009, 09:54:48 PM »
I think nothing is more shameful to the US as a country than letting the stinking hippies stop nuke power. :mad:
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Gewehr98

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Re: This will make the peak oil loonies crazy
« Reply #32 on: July 29, 2009, 09:58:25 PM »
Wasn't just the hippies, per se.

When I spent 10 years in Kalifornia, a fairly-new nuclear power plant at Rancho Seco got voted out of existence on a public ballot, just a few years before Gray Davis and the rolling blackouts hit that state.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rancho_Seco_Nuclear_Generating_Station 
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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: This will make the peak oil loonies crazy
« Reply #33 on: July 29, 2009, 10:00:52 PM »
You think so?  I know the green movement is vocal, but I don't know if I believe they could stop drilling on Federal land if it would bring a large drop in fuel prices.  I don't think they have that much influence when it comes to an issue that directly impacts the public like that.
I forget where I saw it, but someone drew up a list of every new energy plant that anyone had attempted to build in the US in the past 10 years or so.  Just about everyone of them was either tied up by greenie activist lawsuits, or else the project had been abandoned because of too many greenie activist lawsuits.  Nuke plants, coal plants, a coupla hydro dams, oil fields and refineries, anything and everything, it didn't matter to them.  They just buried it in red tape and shut it down.

There are a handful of half-built nuclear reactors scattered about the country.  They got the construction started, then the greenies attacked and shut 'em down.

The only real increase in domestic energy production has been achieved through upgrading and improving existing installations.  Existing facilities aren't subject to nearly as many enviro regulations.


grampster

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Re: This will make the peak oil loonies crazy
« Reply #34 on: July 29, 2009, 10:39:33 PM »
What needs to happen is the companies who are attempting to provide more energy disregard the greenies, the judges and whatever and just keep on working.  I have a notion public support would trump the greenies and their complicit judges.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: This will make the peak oil loonies crazy
« Reply #35 on: July 30, 2009, 12:37:10 AM »
The goal should be to get all that we use from our own nation.

Why? 
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Re: This will make the peak oil loonies crazy
« Reply #36 on: July 30, 2009, 01:18:22 AM »
Why? 

National security. There's this group of nasty nations called OPEC. Iran and Venezuela are building up their armies as we speak. The former is attempting to build nuclear weapons and long range rockets.

For starters, the vast majority of power generation should be nuke. We laugh at the French about a lot of things, but they have every right to be smug about nuclear power generation. In this day and age, there is absolutely no reason one drop of petroleum fuel or one lump of coal should be burned to produce electric power unless you're running your own generator off the grid.

I can give you a darn good reason. Price. Why pay more for nuclear when coal can easily be made clean either through scrubbers or the burning of syngas? Why don't you like coal, anyway?


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Re: This will make the peak oil loonies crazy
« Reply #37 on: July 30, 2009, 12:19:23 PM »
I can give you a darn good reason. Price. Why pay more for nuclear when coal can easily be made clean either through scrubbers or the burning of syngas? Why don't you like coal, anyway?

The figures I've seen for clean coal with carbon capture puts it as more expensive than nuclear.

Especially if you put carbon capture in - that takes up something like 10% of the power the plant produces, reducing efficiency and requiring even MORE coal to be burned to make up for it.

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: This will make the peak oil loonies crazy
« Reply #38 on: July 30, 2009, 12:33:31 PM »

I can give you a darn good reason. Price. Why pay more for nuclear when coal can easily be made clean either through scrubbers or the burning of syngas? Why don't you like coal, anyway?

Ever tried to install a new scrubber system in an operating coal plant?  I have.  It is not easy or cheap.

erictank

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Re: This will make the peak oil loonies crazy
« Reply #39 on: July 30, 2009, 01:00:42 PM »
I forget where I saw it, but someone drew up a list of every new energy plant that anyone had attempted to build in the US in the past 10 years or so.  Just about everyone of them was either tied up by greenie activist lawsuits, or else the project had been abandoned because of too many greenie activist lawsuits.  Nuke plants, coal plants, a coupla hydro dams, oil fields and refineries, anything and everything, it didn't matter to them.  They just buried it in red tape and shut it down.

There are a handful of half-built nuclear reactors scattered about the country.  They got the construction started, then the greenies attacked and shut 'em down.

The only real increase in domestic energy production has been achieved through upgrading and improving existing installations.  Existing facilities aren't subject to nearly as many enviro regulations.

When I worked at the North Anna Nuclear Power Station, out in Mineral VA, there were two reactors onsite (finished in 1980 and 1982, IIRC).  There were foundations for Units 3 and 4, as well - and there are photos of half-built containment domes and significant amounts of primary-side equipment inside the domes, which are no longer there.  All that was taken down after lawsuits to stop construction and drum up public fear over nuke plants made it too expensive to finish two 900MWe power plants.  Improvements to existing equipment over the years has increased the two units onsite from about 900MWe each to slightly over 1000MWe - and that's it.

They're now, twenty+ years later, putting a third unit (of a different design than the first two) on the site.

National security. There's this group of nasty nations called OPEC. Iran and Venezuela are building up their armies as we speak. The former is attempting to build nuclear weapons and long range rockets.

I can give you a darn good reason. Price. Why pay more for nuclear when coal can easily be made clean either through scrubbers or the burning of syngas? Why don't you like coal, anyway?

Because it's FAR from easy or cheap to make coal "clean", for one.

Because nuclear fission is, last I saw, BY FAR the cheapest major power option currently at hand, for two.

Because coal releases far more radioactive byproducts (as well as other unpleasant nonradioactives) to the environment as a result of normal operations, for three.

Is there a use for coal?  Sure - especially since, as has been pointed out, you can get synthetic petroleum out of it (although I'm a little fuzzy on the process and attendant costs).  Should it be a primary electric-grid source?  Not IMO.

Perd Hapley

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Re: This will make the peak oil loonies crazy
« Reply #40 on: July 31, 2009, 12:14:55 AM »
National security.


Sure, but does our national security mean we have to get 100% of our petroleum domestically? 
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MicroBalrog

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Re: This will make the peak oil loonies crazy
« Reply #41 on: July 31, 2009, 12:28:08 AM »
So why not steel independence, then?

Lead independence?

Rubber independence?
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RocketMan

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Re: This will make the peak oil loonies crazy
« Reply #42 on: July 31, 2009, 12:53:02 AM »
So why not steel independence, then?

Lead independence?

Rubber independence?

Because they lack the in-your-face immediacy that Joe Sixpack experiences each time he goes to the gas station.  The politicians can play on that.
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Re: This will make the peak oil loonies crazy
« Reply #43 on: July 31, 2009, 01:26:55 AM »
But the peak oil loonies are already crazy. 

don't be so fascist :lol:
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MicroBalrog

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Re: This will make the peak oil loonies crazy
« Reply #44 on: July 31, 2009, 04:38:31 AM »
Because they lack the in-your-face immediacy that Joe Sixpack experiences each time he goes to the gas station.  The politicians can play on that.

Exactly my point.
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