Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: Cliffh on August 02, 2023, 10:38:09 PM
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I've got a small (<1/4 acre) pond on the property. To aerate and keep a little water movement I've been running an extension cord from the shop to the pond to run a 1/2hp sump pump. I'd set the pump in a container, with a timer to run it a couple times per day for 15min or so. Off the pump is a vertical 1 1/2" pipe with a 45* elbow at the top. This has worked OK, with a few exceptions:
I have to dig back into the bank, by hand.
It's cost me more than one good extension cord.
An extension cord is not a good solution for the power supply.
This year, I'd like to try something different. I'd like to setup a 12v battery with a solar charger and attach a self-priming 12v pump to the battery. The pump I'm currently looking at has 3/4" garden hose fittings for the inlet & outlet. Pushing the water through a garden hose instead of a 1 1/2" pipe will require running it for more than 15 minutes at a time, or more times per day. That'll depend on how the water's looking after a few days. The mount for the outlet will be easier to rig, and there is a good variety of nozzles to get an acceptable spray pattern.
Looking at HF, I've come up with these items:
https://www.harborfreight.com/25-watt-solar-panel-63940.html
https://www.harborfreight.com/12v-35-ah-sealed-lead-acid-battery-56770.html
https://www.harborfreight.com/7-amp-solar-charge-regulator-96728.html
https://www.harborfreight.com/12v-dc-transfer-pump-290-gph-63324.html
Still have to source a 12v timer.
I've got a few questions, and probably more that I don't know to ask:
How do I compute the run time for the pump without draining the battery too far? Down to a point where the solar panel can't get it back up to full charge before the pump comes on again. How long will it take the solar panel to charge the battery? Is that enough battery? Would a deep cycle battery be necessary?
I could use a convertor and run a 120v pump.
The pump description says it's self-priming, but I think I'll be putting a check valve inline.
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First thing that stands out is pump drawing 50 watts but solar panel is 25w max. Unless you're commited to less than an hour or two of total run time per day, you'll never be able to keep the battery charged.
For a 50w load plus efficiency, transmission, and controller losses you're gonna want a 100w panel, minimum. 200w is preferred unless you plan on having some type of motorized tracker to optimize panel exposure.
For what you'll have in panel, pump, and controller, you could run DB cable and mount a weather-rated box on a post or pole right at point of use.
Brad
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Are you committed to solar electric?
My neighbor aerates his pond with a windmill pump. Seems to work very well.
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First thing I note is that you were previously running a 1/2 hp pump. One horsepower is equivalent to approximately 700 or 750 watts. The old pump is about 350ish watts. Your replacement pump is only 50 watts. It's going to need to run a lot longer in order to cycle as much water. This also corresponds with your pipe/hose diameter where 1.5" will move considerably more water than 0.75" pipe. 0.75" has a surface area of 1.77" while 1.5" has a surface area of 7.06". It's about 4x the capacity (go figure... double the radius and you get 4x the capacity).
You need to run this pump 6-8x as much to effect the same water movement.
The battery you linked claims to have 35Ah of usable power. 12v @ 35Ah yields about 420 watts usable storage, but I'm skeptical you will get a full 35Ah out of it and have the battery remain usable for long. Your pump sucks 50 watts so in theory this battery could run it for 8 hours, but that would be abusive to the battery.
I'd suggest a 25-50% duty cycle through the day as long as you have sunlight, and to get a 100 watt panel since it will only get 100 watts at peak sun position, and you'll probably only get 10-20 watts charge rate for the hours nearest sunrise and sunset. Overcast conditions will weaken the charge rate further.
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The system doesn't have to be solar powered. I am trying to avoid digging a 60ish foot ditch, but looking around at solar options I'm not coming up with anything practical. If I do break down & rent a ditch witch my options open up dramatically with 120v stuff.
And the 120v options seem to be much less expensive than the wind powered options a quick search found. They seem to be starting around the $800 mark. A 100' roll of 10/2 is a lot cheaper, and would put power out there that DW has been asking for.
Now to work in the time around "The List" and doctor appointments....
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I’ve been thinking about the same thing. What I would love is a big floating solar panel that powers an air pump and pipes it through bubbler stones.
I might just have to run 120v like you are planning.
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I'd like to hear about it if you come up with a workable solution.
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How long is the extension cord at present?
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Cliffh - here's an idea for you.
I bought this house almost 20 years ago. On the back half was a 30' x 50' pole barn that had no power and it is about 100' behind the house. We arranged for a friend who was an electrical contractor to help me out and we started by upgrading the house from 100A service to 200A and diverting 60A to the barn and re-routing the feed to the breakers which had (incorrectly) gone through the attic. He brought the feed through the crawl space to keep the line cooler.
In going to the barn, he used his Vermeer to dig a 3-5' trench that we put a layer of sand on the bottom to create some cushioning for the 2 PVC pipes. One was for the two 4 gauge power cables and a second thinner pipe for the phone line. This was dug from the back of the house, diagonally under the gravel driveway, then alongside it to the side of the barn. After he set up the 100A junction box in the barn, I wired the rest of the barn myself, putting in a small electric furnace, multiple lines for lights, outlets, and assorted power tools. There is one dedicated line for the large freezer out in that barn as well.
You won't need as "extensive" a project but I still suggest going down at least 2' or more, partly depending on how deep your "frost line" is located. Deeper is also safer if somebody starts digging or driving over the line. Run at least a 10 gauge line out there and put a "weatherproof" outlet box on the PVC where it comes up out of the ground. This way, you just plug your pump into the outlet. Should the pump ever fail, unplug and replace it.
Good luck!
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I've been using a 75' extension cord, but there are a few coils laying on the ground by the time it gets to the pump. Haven't measured the distance but I'm guesstimating 60' would be about right.
JTHunter:
The shed/workshop (a cramped 20' x 20') has a power supply/meter separate from the house. My plan was pretty much what you described with the exception of putting sand in the bottom of the ditch, hadn't thought of that, makes sense though. Digging the ditch deep enough was the reason I mentioned the ditch witch - this boy's dug enough deep holes by hand and don't want to do any more. Let the machines do the work.
IIRC, the frost line's 18" around here. Figured to put it deeper 'cause it'll cross the power co. easement, and they've recently been driving some larger trucks across that area - running fiber optic cable. YEAH! Fiber optic internet is in my near future!
I've got more wiring to do in the shop, more lighting & 120v outlets. It'll come, all in good time.
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Sounds good. At 60-75', you might be able to get by with 12/3 solid wire but for the sake or redundancy, you might still be better off with the 10 gauge.
One of the problems we had with Vermeer was that we had to cut through some tree roots. The roots won. Contractor had to get his larger Vermeer to get through the roots.
If you can find it, the type of non-metallic cable designed for underground without a conduit might be easier to use. We laid the cable and phone lines out on the ground first then slid the 10' sections of PVC pipe onto them. Then we glued the PVC together before putting it in the trench with excess wire hanging out of both ends for later hook ups.
Good luck with your project. [popcorn]
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I’ve got 150 feet at least. Unless I reuse the cables running to the disused well pump, which would only save me maybe 25 feet.
I keep waffling between a fountain and a bubbler system. I’m not sure that the cost or complexity would be that different between the two.
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A fountain will cause a greater amount of evaporation than a bubbler. Depending on the shallowness of the water, the impeller for the fountain could also kick up some silt from the bottom and jam the pump.
A bubbler doesn't move as much water but aerates it at the same time. They can also be prone to clogging, depending on how the piping is arranged.
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Sounds good. At 60-75', you might be able to get by with 12/3 solid wire but for the sake or redundancy, you might still be better off with the 10 gauge.
That's where I was headed with my question, but 75 feet of extension means 150 feet of conductors (besides the ground line), regardless of the distance to the pond.
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I’ve got 150 feet at least. Unless I reuse the cables running to the disused well pump, which would only save me maybe 25 feet.
I keep waffling between a fountain and a bubbler system. I’m not sure that the cost or complexity would be that different between the two.
My recommendation is absolutely an aerator vs a fountain. Over my first two years here, the combination of aerator, demucker, and algae packets completely rehabilitated my 1 acre pond. It was a cow infested hole when I got here, and now, outside of algae bloom season, you can easily see fish a foot down. The previous owners had a fountain, and it seemed to do nothing.
It's not the cheapest, and only the smallest of the units, like the 40 or 20, would be solar compatible unless you went big with the solar, but the Hi Blows rock.
https://www.amazon.com/HIBLOW-HP-80-Aerator-Septic-Linear/dp/B006YGDBWI
I have the 80 on grid power and a timer, plus make seasonal changes between Winter and the rest of the seasons. The Hi Blows were originally septic aerators, but were discovered by the pond community. The design for septic makes them unstoppable beasts. Mine has been running every day for five years.
Edit: Depending on pond size there are also these:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B09PMNYQNR
I made a small (about 50' x 25') habitat pond on the other side of the property, and two of them handle keeping the water clear and give plenty of air to the amphibians. It probably wouldn't be hard for an APS rednecker to make something similar with more power out of whatever parts.
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Thanks for the recommendations, Ben. The HiBlow looks like a good solution if I can get 120V (either hardwired or via an inverter) out there.
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The power line run from the meter to the shop is a combination of going through PVC & direct bury - DB cable was used throughout the run. Mainly used the PVC to enter & exit the ground, once it was in the bottom of the ditch it was just laid in the dirt.
I've already bought enough PVC to make the run. I'd thought of putting the PVC just below grade and running an extension cord through it. If I'm going to do that, might as well do it right. I'll probably hit a few tree roots on the way, there's an old oak & a fairly large willow on either side of where the receptacle will end up. May end up digging what I can with the machine, finish up with a saw and shovel. Only time will tell.
I've had good experience with Hiblow pumps too. Ours is used on an aerobic septic system, runs 24/7/365. I don't know how long the original pump was in use, it failed sometime during the first 3 years we were here. I bought a used* Hiblow to replace it, must be over 12 1/2 years by now, it's only required filter changes.
Still have the old one in the shop. Might have to take it apart and see what it needs, last I looked there were a lot of different part kits available.
*No idea of how "used" the replacement was.
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Still have the old one in the shop. Might have to take it apart and see what it needs, last I looked there were a lot of different part kits available.
I have the Hiblow rebuild kit sitting in the shop for just in case. I think it was like 50 bucks on the amazons.
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It's been years, probably a decade or so, since I last looked at part kits for it. At that time, they were running a lot more than that. If they're down that low, I'll have to grab the model number and do some shopping.
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I bought it a couple of years ago, so it might be higher now.
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The prices I recall were north of $150, so a bit over $50 wouldn't be bad.
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If I'm understanding things, using an aerator with a pump in the building, and running the air out to the pond in sprinkler tubing* or the like would be cheaper and simpler and more reliable than running wiring out to a local pump... either air or water --out by the pond itself.
This, regardless of whether the pond is 15 feet or 150 feet away from the building.
? ? ?
Terry, 230RN
* Or whatever, even garden hose.
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If I'm understanding things, using an aerator with a pump in the building, and running air out to the pond in sprinkler tubing or the like would be pretty cheaper and simpler than running wiring out to a local pump... either air or water --out by the pond itself.
? ? ?
Terry, 230RN
The aerator doesn't need to be inside. Mine sits next to my pond with a simple rain cover. There's a limit to how much air hose you can run with an aerator, based on the unit's output as well as water depth. I run around 100' of weighted hose, split into two bubblers.
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The aerator doesn't need to be inside. Mine sits next to my pond with a simple rain cover. There's a limit to how much air hose you can run with an aerator, based on the unit's output as well as water depth. I run around 100' of weighted hose, split into two bubblers.
I think 15 PSIG will get you down to 30 feet depth, and the distance for the air hose is the same problem as the distance with electricity. Longer distance, thicker wires. Longer distance, bigger piping. And you don't have electricity running outdoors without a permit... assuming one was required, rain cover notwithstanding.
Anyhow, what's best is best, I just thought keeping the pump in or near the building and running piping or sprinkler tubing out there might be simpler and safer, although you might need a bigger compressor to compensate for pressure loss in the piping (transit head loss). And there's the noise factor by the house, too.
I'm not married to the idea, hence the " ? ? ?."
Terry, 230RN
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As far as the noise level, those Hiblows are quiet. Ours is outside, just on the other side of the bedroom wall that my head is nearest - can't hear a thing. Can barely hear it standing 5' away outside.
The rest of it, well, I'll have to ruminate on it for a while. Off the top of my head, there's not a lot of room in my shop. And would still have to run PVC or similar piping.
There are advantages to not running electricity out there, price being one. Then again, SWMBO has wanted electricity in that area pretty much since we moved in 15 yrs ago.
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Thought I'd revisit this.
For a number of months I've had a LiFePO4 power bank hooked up to a solar panel. The power bank has a built-in inverter and was running a knock-off of the Hi Blow linear air pump into two air lines then into bubbler stones. The problem was that if the power bank depleted fully, once recharged it wouldn't kick the AC outlet back on to drive the pump. Fully charged it would run a few hours, and with solar assist it could run all day during daytime, but would cut off most nights and not start up again in the morning. I tried putting an AC timer on it, and could get it to run a couple hours during the day, but if we had several cloudy days in a row it would eventually run down and wouldn't start back up. Also, the AC timer and the power bank's fans would slowly deplete the battery on their own.
Back to the drawing board.
When I took down my solar-powered maple sugaring vacuum pump I decided to reuse some of the solar components for the pond pump. The solar panel is a generic 110W panel and feeds into a Renogy Wanderer. The Wanderer charges two parallel LiFePo4 batteries with a total capacity of about 40Ah which drive a 110v inverter. I previously had the inverter wired into a low power 12v loop timer I had used on the maple sap system, but the relay terminals are just too small to get a solid connection and this was causing problems. The system runs itself completely dead sometime during the night, and at about 11am is getting enough power from the panels to start the pump and start charging the batteries. Because it's a dumb system it doesn't need to be turned back on when it gets power - if it has enough juice to run the pump it does, if not the BMS in the batteries shuts it off.
This type of abuse wouldn't work well with lead acid batteries, but the LiFePo4 ones seem to be working okay. I'd like to either get a low voltage cutoff or put a new relay in for the timer. I think the new relay would probably be the best idea. That way I could have the pump cycle on every few minutes. Reducing the duty cycle by half would mean that the batteries should typically be able to carry on regular operation through the night and get recharged during the day. A long cloudy stretch might still cause it to die eventually, but it would come back online with enough sunlight.
The battery, pump, and charging hardware are all in a black plastic tote with holes drilled for drainage, to run the cables to the solar panels, and for the pump hose. I'll have to keep an eye on the heat levels in the summer. The solar panel rests against the tote facing south. When I'm confident in the system I think I'm going to move it to the north side of the pond so it is less visible from the road.
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Good timing bringing this up. I think I'm gonna copy some of what you're doing. Looking back at the thread, I see that one of my recommendations for a small pond was those Amazon chicom kits. I would no longer recommend them. I had two of them fail since the start of this thread.
I'm now going to use a small Hiblow 20, Harbor Freight panel, and a spare battery that I've had sitting in the shop to do the same setup I have on my big pond except smaller scale on solar. I'm taking notes on your setup. =)
On having your aerator in a box in the heat, you can always cut airholes in it. What I did for my grid power Hiblow is build a wooden box with the top having a 4" overhang on all sides. Then I cut 2"slots at the top of the sides and stapled window screen material over the holes, so it works sort of like attic vents on a house, and the "overhang" keeps rain from getting in the box.
That seems to keep it from overheating, though these Hiblow style septic pumps seem to be pretty robust for the environment they can take. I also have the big pond aerator on a timer so that it's off from around 2PM-7PM in the Summer. From reading, it's not necessarily good to blow hot air into a pond where the water might also be heating up from the Summer sun.
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I had two of the little solar chicom pumps fail too, but they were way undersized for my pond anyway.
That seems to keep it from overheating, though these Hiblow style septic pumps seem to be pretty robust for the environment they can take. I also have the big pond aerator on a timer so that it's off from around 2PM-7PM in the Summer. From reading, it's not necessarily good to blow hot air into a pond where the water might also be heating up from the Summer sun.
Good info, thanks!
I could put vent holes under the edge of the tote pretty easily. Not as good as your option as the overhang is much smaller, but a step drill and 5 minutes and I can have that taken care of. Plus, any rain that does get in shouldn't impact things much given how I have things positioned and the drain holes I already have will let the water out.
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So one problem that I should have foreseen was that the AC timer I'm using isn't keeping good time. It relies on AC frequency for timing and the cheap inverter I'm using isn't outputting pure sine wave.
I'm going to have to get something else to serve that purpose.