Post by: Stand_watie on February 18, 2006, 05:58:17 PM
Don't get me wrong. I'm not bemoaning the loss of formal dress. I enjoy being able to go shop for groceries in blue jeans, a ball cap, and three days growth on my face without being looked askance at - I grew up in parochial schools and 3 times a week church, and I've had enough formal dress to last my lifetime, but I'm curious for opinions, especially from the older folks, about when and why we went to a full time casual dress society.
I went to court the other day for my divorce, and as I was dressing (suit and tie) my wife said, "You don't have to dress up you know" - she wore blue jeans.
I talked to my dad today and he said it was the hippie movement (he calls them beatniks) and JFK dressing down to appeal to the hippie vote. He said there was a clear contrast between the dress worn in his freshman year of college and his senior year 57 - 61).
What do you think?
Post by: Guest on February 18, 2006, 06:08:41 PM
Post by: Slimjim on February 18, 2006, 06:12:00 PM
Post by: onions! on February 18, 2006, 06:51:24 PM
My job is informal.Blue oxford w/tan slacks.I'd love to wear a suit every day.I like how I feel when I wear one.
Post by: Slimjim on February 18, 2006, 06:54:08 PM
Quote from: 41mag
IIRC,JFK was the first modern President to be sworn in sans hat.That became the death knell for that underappreciated bit of felt.& look what happened to him!Maybe if he'd worn the hat the CIA wouldn't have had him locked up for all these years in their secret bunker under Yankee Stadium.
My job is informal.Blue oxford w/tan slacks.I'd love to wear a suit every day.I like how I feel when I wear one.
No no no, hoffa is under yankee stadium. JFK is in cold storage at area 51, with walt disney, remember?
My job is informal.Blue oxford w/tan slacks.I'd love to wear a suit every day.I like how I feel when I wear one.
Post by: onions! on February 18, 2006, 06:56:08 PM
Post by: Strings on February 18, 2006, 06:58:19 PM
I have no problem with any mode of dress, myself: I can go full formal to totally casual, and feel equally comfortable. However, there ARE situations where mode of dress is important, and that's being lost...
I remember the first findraising dinner I wnt to with the WCCA: our table was ALL suit and tie. Dick made a comment that night: we may not be the largest group here, but we ARE the best-dressed!
Post by: Monkeyleg on February 18, 2006, 06:59:58 PM
Going to church means wearing a suit and tie. Even when I was eight years old, I had to wear a suit and tie.
Going to a job interview meant wearing a suit and tie. My first "official" job at age 16 (1966) was for a dishwasher job at a local greasey spoon. I wore a three-piece suit for the interview for a 95-cent an hour job.
My grandfather wore a suit and tie and fedora just about every day of his life. In fact, we have a newspaper photo of him wearing suit, tie and hat while fishing from a rowboat.
When I see the likes of Michael Moore on television, I feel like I'm being offended. Not just because of his politics, but because he thinks so little of the people he's speaking to that he dresses and looks like a bum.
Stand_watie, there is a correlation between what happened in the 1960's in terms of dress codes and what's happening now.
But it goes further than that, because each aspect of civilized behavior relies to at least some degree upon another.
I was raised and taught to say "please" and "thank you," to open doors for women and the elderly, to not curse in polite company, and to respect every other societal norm common at the time.
Bear in mind, I was a drugged-up punk, but I still knew the rules.
Coarse behavior has become so common that elderly women go out of their way to thank me for holding the door for them. They say they can't remember the last time that happened.
My mother-in-law, who sent all of her five children to Catholic schools, now uses the "F" word freely. Frankly, I find that not just disappointing, but shocking.
At 55 years old, I've heard all the arguments that each generation complains that the next is somehow becoming more decadent.
I don't think that's entirely true.
Manners are not a cause of the degradation or escalation of societal norms, they're a reflection of the current norms.
I distinctly recall having some guy walk into my studio, unshaven and wearing a dirty sweatshirt, and ask, "hey, you got any jobs?"
He was either a complete idiot, or didn't want to get a job. Or perhaps both.
Post by: Slimjim on February 18, 2006, 07:10:03 PM
Post by: Moondoggie on February 18, 2006, 07:11:03 PM
Man, were we out of place!
For instance, my BIL (the father of the grad), showed-up in jeans, flannel shirt, and jean jacket.
To my way of thinking, which I understand is outdated, dressing up for such an occasion is a sign of a respect for the person being honored at the event.
I enjoy shorts and flip flops as much as the next guy, but there's a time and a place.
Post by: brimic on February 18, 2006, 07:17:08 PM
I had a new neighbor move across the street from 2 years ago. The first time I met him there was a slightly humorous difference in our dress. I was in cut off sweatpants and a tank top, covered in mud from digging a trench for drainage in my yard, he was wearing a crisp looking blue pinstripe suit when he walked over and greeted me. I told him he had to be either a banker or insurance man as those are the only people who wear suits anymore- he said he was the latter.
Post by: chaim on February 18, 2006, 07:27:50 PM
Personally, I try to buck the trend. I haven't worn a tee-shirt in public, except for when I'm excercising or on my way to the pool or gym, in years. I haven't worn blue jeans in public (except for once when I had to go pick something up and all my slacks needed washed) in over a year. I always wear a collared shirt, and usually a button down (occasionally I'll wear a Polo shirt). Heck, in my group (Orthodox Jews) most people think I dress down- many won't go anywhere in public without at least black dress slacks and a white dress shirt, and they often wear a black suit and black fedora (I do actually dress this way fairly often myself).
Quote
I talked to my dad today and he said it was the hippie movement (he calls them beatniks) and JFK dressing down to appeal to the hippie vote.
No such thing as hippies when JFK ran for president, beatniks were few and far between (hippies and beatniks are two quite different things). Though, most people seem to put the beginning of the continuing trend towards more and more casual dress in public to JFK being sworn in without a hat.
Post by: Standing Wolf on February 18, 2006, 08:09:47 PM
Post by: Fjolnirsson on February 18, 2006, 08:12:14 PM
I find it amusing to live here in rural Oregon. The current outrage concerning clothing trends is that high school girls are showing their belly buttons by wearing short tops. LMAO! When I lived in CA, it was fairly common to see high school girls who looked like cheap Oakland hookers. It was so common as to no longer be shocking. One thing I've noticed is that the teenagers here are much more polite than their CA counterparts. Whether that's a result of culture or clothing, I don't know.
When I go out, even if I'm just running to grab a gallon of milk or a loaf of bread, I make an effort to be presentable. I bathe, comb my hair, and wear clean clothes. It's not that much to ask, I feel. Apparently, not everyone feels the same.
Mr Dubois was right.
Post by: Strings on February 18, 2006, 08:31:40 PM
Post by: K Frame on February 18, 2006, 08:37:44 PM
Feudal Europe...
"I can't believe what the children are wearing these days... pointed sabatons! Can you imagine us wearing pointed sabatons to marketday? The king would have had us flogged! And I won't even get into what passes for armor these days!
Post by: Sindawe on February 18, 2006, 09:24:49 PM
For me, dressing up is a nice pair of black jeans along with a dark polo shirt or a bright tee and loud shirt. Daily for fetching groceries or browsing the mall is BDUs, tee shirt and the daily hikers. If I'm gonna wear a costume (which is all a suit really is), its gonna be of my choosing and something most other folks would not wear, like my winter jacket (http://www.hmoon.com/hunters.html, fringed hunter in black, antler buttons). What ever I wear is always clean though, and the hair is neatly pulled back into a pony tail.
I remember when most men wore suits daily, and women wore some kind of dress. I don't miss those days a bit. The move toward a more casual style of dressing makes for an interesting visual landscape.
Post by: uvakat on February 19, 2006, 03:24:03 AM
Jeans are pretty much common with me though I do dress up when the situation warrents (often feeling a wee bit overdressed at times) I miss the days when nice clothes were the norm. I also think it depends on where in the country are you. Here in VA Beach the dress is much more casual. It is nothing to go to a $30-40 a plate restraunt with jeans and a t-shirt on . Up in Northern Virginia outside of DC, I won't even go to the mall without at least a nice sweater and nice boots on.
Post by: DrAmazon on February 19, 2006, 04:24:45 AM
"Talk to the Hand: The Utter Bloody Rudeness of the World Today, or Six Good Reasons to Stay Home and Bolt the Door" by Lynne Truss. She also wrote the hysterical grammar book "Eats, Shoots and Leaves". No, I'm not kidding about a funny grammar book.
Standing Wolf, you'd love this book.
Post by: M14rick on February 19, 2006, 06:11:27 AM
I wasn't raised that way, we were always dressed nicely as youngsters. For the first twenty nine years of my working life, I wore a uniform of one kind or another, and never really had to dress for work. Now that I am 57 years old, I do what I want and no more. I am polite, pay my bills on time, show up for work on time, etc. I never go to town unless I have shaved, I even shave my head every 2-3 days. I am happiest when I am on my 100 acres, and my family is around, especially my only grandchild, a 3 year old girl.
I will agree that people look nice dressed properly, and that what some people wear is certainly not respectable.
Post by: Guest on February 19, 2006, 06:35:34 AM
Post by: ...has left the building. on February 19, 2006, 06:40:18 AM
I'm a young guy and regularly wear the following every week:
-Suit and tie
-Shirt and tie
-Suit, dress shirt, no tie
-Khakis/Dress pants and a fitted polo
-Designer jeans + interesting t-shirt; fitted polo, untucked; button up, untucked; thin sweater, preferably cashmere
-Motorcycle riding gear
-House bumming - hoodie and jeans or t-shirt and shorts
I probably spend most of my week "dressed up". Many people make fashion faux-pas all the time. For example, I think it looks "dressier" to wear designer jeans and a new-looking untucked fitted button-up than it does to wear faded khakis and an old polo tucked in. And don't forget boys and girls, always match your leather!
IMHO it is more of a function of people with bad style rather than laziness. Sure its easy to look at young people and say that our generation is lazy and we have bad taste. But really, it boils down to the fact that most people have bad taste, period.
Post by: matis on February 19, 2006, 07:02:00 AM
I wear jeans and sport shirt everywhere. I have 2 pairs of black Shabbos pants and some white shirts for synagogue and funerals.
Clean and neat, yes. But that's my "uniform".
I still own one suit but can no longer fit into. I had it made to measure in Hong Kong in the seventies (!). I don't really know why it still hangs in my closet. Perhaps as a reminder -- to highlight my hard-won freedom to dress as I like?
That said, I'm still annoyed at the ridiculous laxity of dress I see all around me. Especially in offices. I don't expect suit and tie, at all. But shorts and flip-flops and what seems like beach wear worn by people at work doesn't sit right with me.
And for some reason, I'm most annoyed when I see people milling around the airport dressed as if for the beach.
Guess I'm old-fashioned.
matis
Post by: Felonious Monk/Fignozzle on February 19, 2006, 08:52:38 AM
Quote from: matis
I've never liked dressing up.
I still own one suit but can no longer fit into. I had it made to measure in Hong Kong in the seventies (!). I don't really know why it still hangs in my closet. Perhaps as a reminder -- to highlight my hard-won freedom to dress as I like?
matis
Me, either. Weddings and funerals when I must. I do think our society has grown more casual; nice polos and khakis, even clean, neat jeans and a button-down shirt are fine. It's sad that it also opens the door for slobs and (here in AL) fat old women with no bra and (I am not making this up) Skoal spit running down the t-shirt. Thankfully, that's few & far between, but jeans, shorts, t-shirts and sandals or tennis shoes are the norm.I still own one suit but can no longer fit into. I had it made to measure in Hong Kong in the seventies (!). I don't really know why it still hangs in my closet. Perhaps as a reminder -- to highlight my hard-won freedom to dress as I like?
matis
To sum up: I like casual. CLEAN casual. The Michael Moore style is disgusting.
Post by: doczinn on February 19, 2006, 09:58:42 AM
Post by: Balog on February 19, 2006, 11:42:47 AM
I'll wear my nice uniforms when the occasion presents itself.
Clean is a must. Comfort is a must. Neat is optional for day to day transaction. I comb my hair and shave, but I don't exactly become agoraphobic if my hair is mussed or I'm stubbly. I just wish to be comfortable and moderately presentable. I love jammie pants. They're just insanely comfie. If I'm going to the local grocery store I feel no compulsion to "dress for success." I didn't feel this way until I started working as a house painter. I was hardly going to change out of my paint splattered whites every time I had to run to 7/11 to refill the coffee mugs. Initially I was ashamed of my appearance, but it didn't last long.
Post by: Matthew Carberry on February 19, 2006, 12:10:03 PM
I wear a suit and usually a tie to work (mortgage banker so I fit in the two categories) and I just bought a black fedora to wear with my suits and overcoat. Now I wear the hat at all times when outdoors. One, it keeps my head warm, two, I get nothing but complements and "that looks good, I wish hats were back in style" comments from all ages and, three, I feel funny uncovered outside (thanks USMC) but don't like wearing ballcaps (a sports uniform item) when not playing a sport. I'll probably get a brown one for my more casual days and to go with my leather jackets.
A nice hat really finishes off an outfit. I will wear jeans (clean and not worn out) day to day but since I was in the Marines I still can't go out without a belt, real shoes and a collared shirt unless I'm on a beach or PT-ing.
I look at old pictures of factory workers with shirts and ties on under their coveralls and people in suits and hats in soup lines in the 30's and wonder how dressing well got to be such a hassle.
One cause I have thought of was the 60's-70's "tight fit" and polyester thing. Men's pants used to have pleats and lots of room to move, jackets and shirts were cut fuller and all were from natural fabrics, not plastics that don't breathe. If your formative experience with a suit was being jammed into a poorly made, poorly fitted, off the rack Sear's polyester special just to go to boring church once a week you aren't going to appreciate properly made more formal clothing when you grow up.
Post by: Guest on February 19, 2006, 01:00:21 PM
Tomorrow? I'm thinking black slacks, and a sweater.
Typical day at work involves slacks and some sort of shirt, usually a button down blouse or sweater and somewhat casual shoes. If something is going on that requires it, I'll wear a suit to work, and I sometimes wear them to various meetings and such outside of work. I always wear suits to interviews.
But no heels! Ever. Even during a job interview. If I can't get hired without them, I don't want the job.
Post by: Declaration Day on February 19, 2006, 02:05:13 PM
Quote from: c_yeager
I think its kinda sad. We used to dress up for everything when we left the house and I think it made everyone behave better as a result. I think that Americans have developed a general disregard for personal appearance that goes way beyond dress.
There may be something to that, I never thought of it that way. If it's true about society as a whole, it definitely does not include me.Unless I am at a wedding or a funeral, I'm in jeans and a T-shirt. I'm always clean, and clean shaven, so I don't look like a bum, but I am without question a casual guy.
I am also a very polite person. Whether I am speaking to my grandmother or anonymous nicknames on the 'net, I act like a gentleman.
Post by: IndianaDean on February 19, 2006, 03:36:58 PM
Post by: MillCreek on February 19, 2006, 04:17:04 PM
Post by: doczinn on February 19, 2006, 08:13:30 PM
Quote
I feel funny uncovered outside (thanks USMC)
Ya get used to it. It also took me a while to get used to not having a rifle slung on a 3-point.
Post by: CatsDieNow on February 20, 2006, 03:48:20 AM
Post by: roo_ster on February 20, 2006, 05:08:42 AM
I, too, have a difficult time finding a suit that looks decent, even when I am overweight and am more likely to fit the off-the-rack suits. Too much muscle and not enough fat, even when I am out of shape. For me, a suit is a $1000 made to measure proposition.
Slovenly presentation is off-putting. I am not referencing style or fashion, here. Some really off-the-wall casual fashions can be perfectly neat. An example I see regularly is the, aahh, "urban youth" dress of W-I-D-E bluejeans and a B-I-G pullover shirt with lots of garish accoutrements. Lots of those who affect this style have neatly pressed jeans and are up on their personal hygiene. I give bonus points for good personal hygiene.
What really gets me is that lots of folks who dress in a slovenly/inappropriate for the situation and/or have poor personal hygiene act all put out if they are treated like they look. Newsflash: appearance does matter. It is not only an indicator of what you purport to be, but is an indicator about how much respect you have for those with whom you interact.
Post by: SalukiFan on February 20, 2006, 06:44:44 AM
Honestly, if they had just worn pajama pants, I would not have cared as much but the filthy Elmo slippers (and other festive designs) were a bit much. I've seen a lot more of this since I've been working a late shift - it seems that the later it is, the more anything goes.
- SalukiFan
Post by: Guest on February 20, 2006, 01:54:33 PM
Guess I'll have to drag myself to the mall this weekend.
The good news is, the new job is 73 miles closer to home than the old job, so I'm still ahead of the game.
Post by: jefnvk on February 20, 2006, 02:36:52 PM
My dress everyday is about jeans, a t-shirt, and some sort of sweatshirt or fleece sweater. I don't wear clothes that are dirty (dirty as in obviously stained and/or smelly, there is a difference in that and a pair of pants that got worn two days in a row). I don't see any disadvantage compared to my friend who wears a polo shirt and dockers everywhere. I did that for a while, no one seemed to care when I went back to pants and a t-shirt.
Honestly, I don't live my life trying to impress the public. If there is a reason, such as the job fair tomorrow, I will be dressed in a suit. Really, if there is no reason, there is no point in dressing up.
Post by: crt360 on February 20, 2006, 03:39:12 PM
Post by: Matthew Carberry on February 20, 2006, 04:41:04 PM
Quote from: doczinn
Quote
I feel funny uncovered outside (thanks USMC)
Ya get used to it. It also took me a while to get used to not having a rifle slung on a 3-point.The sling is black, so it matches my belt and shoes.