The decline of American formal dress

[Stand_watie]

(and consequently the decline of formal dress in other places that the American media influences)

Don't get me wrong. I'm not bemoaning the loss of formal dress. I enjoy being able to go shop for groceries in blue jeans, a ball cap, and three days growth on my face without being looked askance at - I grew up in parochial schools and 3 times a week church, and I've had enough formal dress to last my lifetime, but I'm curious for opinions, especially from the older folks, about when and why we went to a full time casual dress society.

I went to court the other day for my divorce, and as I was dressing (suit and tie) my wife said, "You don't have to dress up you know" - she wore blue jeans.

I talked to my dad today and he said it was the hippie movement (he calls them beatniks) and JFK dressing down to appeal to the hippie vote. He said there was a clear contrast between the dress worn in his freshman year of college and his senior year 57  - 61).

What do you think?

[Guest]

I think its kinda sad. We used to dress up for everything when we left the house and I think it made everyone behave better as a result. I think that Americans have developed a general disregard for personal appearance that goes way beyond dress. I am getting really sick of seeing people that are simply wilfully hideous going out and expecting to be treated the same or better as everyone else. I'm not talking about people who are naturally ugly, cant help that, but about people that are just slobs, they act like slobs, dress like slobs, smell like slobs, etc. I wish I knew what caused this, but maybe it is the notion that "everyone is special in their own way, we are all unique snowflakes, and should not judge anyone based on their appearance" that we are teaching our children. Well, appearance matters, when you pass someone on the street or meet them for the first time, appearance is all you know about them.

[Slimjim]

The Trench coat and fedora, are a long lost look. I agree formal dress is pretty much dead, im guessing its because most people have jobs in offices now, that they dont want to dress up more than they have to when going out, as it reminds them of work, and a casual dress is a bit less..worky? They dress casual because of dressing formal so many days a week.

[onions!]

IIRC,JFK was the first modern President to be sworn in sans hat.That became the death knell for that underappreciated bit of felt.& look what happened to him!Maybe if he'd worn the hat the CIA wouldn't have had him locked up for all these years in their secret bunker under Yankee Stadium.

My job is informal.Blue oxford w/tan slacks.I'd love to wear a suit every day.I like how I feel when I wear one.

[Slimjim]

IIRC,JFK was the first modern President to be sworn in sans hat.That became the death knell for that underappreciated bit of felt.& look what happened to him!Maybe if he'd worn the hat the CIA wouldn't have had him locked up for all these years in their secret bunker under Yankee Stadium.

My job is informal.Blue oxford w/tan slacks.I'd love to wear a suit every day.I like how I feel when I wear one.

No no no, hoffa is under yankee stadium. JFK is in cold storage at area 51, with walt disney, remember?

[onions!]

Dang!I forgot!Did they get the whole guy or just his head?I heard all that's left of Walt is the old gorp.

[Strings]

Actually, it's kinda funny. Used to be, bikers were the "dirty slobs". Now, most of the bikers I know dress better than most other people...

 I have no problem with any mode of dress, myself: I can go full formal to totally casual, and feel equally comfortable. However, there ARE situations where mode of dress is important, and that's being lost...

 I remember the first findraising dinner I wnt to with the WCCA: our table was ALL suit and tie. Dick made a comment that night: we may not be the largest group here, but we ARE the best-dressed!

[Monkeyleg]

OK, maybe I'm an old fart.

Going to church means wearing a suit and tie. Even when I was eight years old, I had to wear a suit and tie.

Going to a job interview meant wearing a suit and tie. My first "official" job at age 16 (1966) was for a dishwasher job at a local greasey spoon. I wore a three-piece suit for the interview for a 95-cent an hour job.

My grandfather wore a suit and tie and fedora just about every day of his life. In fact, we have a newspaper photo of him wearing suit, tie and hat while fishing from a rowboat.

When I see the likes of Michael Moore on television, I feel like I'm being offended. Not just because of his politics, but because he thinks so little of the people he's speaking to that he dresses and looks like a bum.

Stand_watie, there is a correlation between what happened in the 1960's in terms of dress codes and what's happening now.

But it goes further than that, because each aspect of civilized behavior relies to at least some degree upon another.

I was raised and taught to say "please" and "thank you," to open doors for women and the elderly, to not curse in polite company, and to respect every other societal norm common at the time.

Bear in mind, I was a drugged-up punk, but I still knew the rules.

Coarse behavior has become so common that elderly women go out of their way to thank me for holding the door for them. They say they can't remember the last time that happened.

My mother-in-law, who sent all of her five children to Catholic schools, now uses the "F" word freely. Frankly, I find that not just disappointing, but shocking.

At 55 years old, I've heard all the arguments that each generation complains that the next is somehow becoming more decadent.

I don't think that's entirely true.

Manners are not a cause of the degradation or escalation of societal norms, they're a reflection of the current norms.

I distinctly recall having some guy walk into my studio, unshaven and wearing a dirty sweatshirt, and ask, "hey, you got any jobs?"

He was either a complete idiot, or didn't want to get a job. Or perhaps both.

[Slimjim]

Speaking of manners. I address people as Sir, and Ma'am. And ive had them get offended. "Why you calling me sir, you dont work for me" And other things. Never thought being kind to someone would piss them off.

[Moondoggie]

I went to my nephew's college graduation last Dec.  Wife and I dressed up.  I had a suit & tie, she wore a nice dress with her white fur (fake) coat.

Man, were we out of place!

For instance, my BIL (the father of the grad), showed-up in jeans, flannel shirt, and jean jacket.

To my way of thinking, which I understand is outdated, dressing up for such an occasion is a sign of a respect for the person being honored at the event.

I enjoy shorts and flip flops as much as the next guy, but there's a time and a place.

[brimic]

I don't dress up much, its pretty much weddings and funerals for me.

I had a new neighbor move across the street from 2 years ago. The first time I met him there was a slightly humorous difference in our dress. I was in cut off sweatpants and a tank top, covered in mud from digging a trench for drainage in my yard, he was wearing a crisp looking blue pinstripe suit when he walked over and greeted me. I told him he had to be either a banker or insurance man as those are the only people who wear suits anymore- he said he was the latter.

[chaim]

I've noticed the trend away from people dressing presentable in public.  I'm not even talking about dressing up in a suit, tie and hat to go out- I'm only 35 so I'm far too young to remember those days.  Today you see guys wearing pants that look like they haven't been washed in months (if ever) and that are falling off their hips.  You see girls and even women wearing clothing to the mall that when I was in my early 20s might have even been shocking in a night club.  Both genders often go out looking like they are dressed for the gym.  I try not to pay attention anymore but it does send a message of having no respect for themselves or for the rest of us.

Personally, I try to buck the trend.  I haven't worn a tee-shirt in public, except for when I'm excercising or on my way to the pool or gym, in years.  I haven't worn blue jeans in public (except for once when I had to go pick something up and all my slacks needed washed) in over a year.  I always wear a collared shirt, and usually a button down (occasionally I'll wear a Polo shirt).  Heck, in my group (Orthodox Jews) most people think I dress down- many won't go anywhere in public without at least black dress slacks and a white dress shirt, and they often wear a black suit and black fedora (I do actually dress this way fairly often myself).

I talked to my dad today and he said it was the hippie movement (he calls them beatniks) and JFK dressing down to appeal to the hippie vote.

No such thing as hippies when JFK ran for president, beatniks were few and far between (hippies and beatniks are two quite different things).  Though, most people seem to put the beginning of the continuing trend towards more and more casual dress in public to JFK being sworn in without a hat.

[Standing Wolf]

Slobs aren't an endangered species.

[Fjolnirsson]

I Have to agree that most folks just don't seem to care how they look these days. Mind you, I wear a suit as seldom as possible. It's terribly difficult for me to get a suit off the rack to fit, as I have unusually broad shoulders for my height. I can't afford tailored suits just yet. However, there's no reason to go out looking like a Third World street beggar. I'm shocked when I see people out in public wearing dirty sweat pants, and smelling like they haven't bathed in a week. There's no excuse for it.
I find it amusing to live here in rural Oregon. The current outrage concerning clothing trends is that high school girls are showing their belly buttons by wearing short tops. LMAO! When I lived in CA, it was fairly common to see high school girls who looked like cheap Oakland hookers. It was so common as to no longer be shocking. One thing I've noticed is that the teenagers here are much more polite than their CA counterparts. Whether that's a result of culture or clothing, I don't know.
When I go out, even if I'm just running to grab a gallon of milk or a loaf of bread, I make an effort to be presentable. I bathe, comb my hair, and wear clean clothes. It's not that much to ask, I feel. Apparently, not everyone feels the same.

Mr Dubois was right.

[Strings]

Fjolnirsson, we can fix your problem with suits: my dad's friends with a couple tailors in Thailand. Shoot me an email...

[K Frame]

I suspect it's been the same in every society for hundres of years...

Feudal Europe...

"I can't believe what the children are wearing these days... pointed sabatons! Can you imagine us wearing pointed sabatons to marketday?  The king would have had us flogged! And I won't even get into what passes for armor these days!

[Sindawe]

Fashion styles change, fact of life.  For me, I have no problem with the "decline of American formal dress".  I loath suits and ties with a passion.  I do not own a suit, and have maybe three ties, none of which have been worn in eight years.  I might have three buisness casual type outfits if I try real hard.  The majority of my wardrobe is jeans, shorts or BDU in NATO woodland, black or khaki.  Tee shirts I have in plenty, in a rainbow of colors with and with out pockets and few with images or logos (most gun related, a few thinkgeek.com), a couple of polo shirts and a few button down short and long sleeve shirts.  Two types of "good shoes" in black (loafer) and brown (lace up), good running shoes in white and dark gray, motorycycle boots, wet/cold weather combat boots and the day to day comfortable blood splattered hikers (my own blood from a nose bleed due to oral surgery in 2002).

For me, dressing up is a nice pair of black jeans along with a dark polo shirt or a bright tee and loud shirt.   Daily for fetching groceries or browsing the mall is BDUs, tee shirt and the daily hikers.  If I'm gonna wear a costume (which is all a suit really is), its gonna be of my choosing and something most other folks would not wear, like my winter jacket (http://www.hmoon.com/hunters.html, fringed hunter in black, antler buttons).  What ever I wear is always clean though, and the hair is neatly pulled back into a pony tail.

I remember when most men wore suits daily, and women wore some kind of dress.  I don't miss those days a bit.  The move toward a more casual style of dressing makes for an interesting visual landscape.

[uvakat]

For me, I saw this decline in my first set of job interviews. I did the on-campus interviews and there were girls showing up in suits I swear they got from the "I want to look like a hooker" rack at the store. I felt horribly out of place in my dark skirt suit with moderate heels and a crisp white shirt underneath. I'm usually in jeans and a t-shirt at work or at school, but then again I work in a gun store and go to school full time.

Jeans are pretty much common with me though I do dress up when the situation warrents (often feeling a wee bit overdressed at times) I miss the days when nice clothes were the norm.  I also think it depends on where in the country are you. Here in VA Beach the dress is much more casual. It is nothing to go to a $30-40 a plate restraunt with jeans and a t-shirt on . Up in Northern Virginia outside of DC, I won't even go to the mall without at least a nice sweater and nice boots on.

[DrAmazon]

This whole thread echoes the book that I'm reading right now

"Talk to the Hand: The Utter Bloody Rudeness of the World Today, or Six Good Reasons to Stay Home and Bolt the Door" by Lynne Truss.  She also wrote the hysterical grammar book "Eats, Shoots and Leaves".  No, I'm not kidding about a funny grammar book.

Standing Wolf, you'd love this book.

[M14rick]

The only time I wear a suit is weddings, and funerals, and only when I can't avoid going to them. However, I wear clean blue jeans and a collared shirt to go out. I don't go to fancy places that require a suit. At home I wear bibs and sweatshirt or tee shirt, depending on the season, and shorts and tee shirt when it is hot. I won't wear bright or "loud" clothing, I prefer to exist under the radar.
     I wasn't raised that way, we were always dressed nicely as youngsters. For the first twenty nine years of my working life, I wore a uniform of one kind or another, and never really had to dress for work. Now that I am 57 years old, I do what I want and no more. I am polite, pay my bills on time, show up for work on time, etc. I never go to town unless I have shaved, I even shave my head every 2-3 days. I am happiest when I am on my 100 acres, and my family is around, especially my only grandchild, a 3 year old girl.
   I will agree that people look nice dressed properly, and that what some people wear is certainly not respectable.

[Guest]

Here are some more culprits:

 

[...has left the building.]

Fashion standards are always changing. Even the military doesn't wear wool uniforms anymore. But there will never be a shortage of people that have no style, no matter what the fashion trends are.

I'm a young guy and regularly wear the following every week:
-Suit and tie
-Shirt and tie
-Suit, dress shirt, no tie
-Khakis/Dress pants and a fitted polo
-Designer jeans + interesting t-shirt; fitted polo, untucked; button up, untucked; thin sweater, preferably cashmere
-Motorcycle riding gear
-House bumming - hoodie and jeans or t-shirt and shorts

I probably spend most of my week "dressed up". Many people make fashion faux-pas all the time. For example, I think it looks "dressier" to wear designer jeans and a new-looking untucked fitted button-up than it does to wear faded khakis and an old polo tucked in. And don't forget boys and girls, always match your leather!

IMHO it is more of a function of people with bad style rather than laziness. Sure its easy to look at young people and say that our generation is lazy and we have bad taste. But really, it boils down to the fact that most people have bad taste, period.

[matis]

I've never liked dressing up.

I wear jeans and sport shirt everywhere.  I have 2 pairs of black Shabbos pants and some white shirts for synagogue and funerals.

Clean and neat, yes.  But that's my "uniform".

I still own one suit but can no longer fit into.  I had it made to measure in Hong Kong in the seventies (!).  I don't really know why it still hangs in my closet.  Perhaps as a reminder -- to highlight my hard-won freedom to dress as I like?


That said, I'm still annoyed at the ridiculous laxity of dress I see all around me.  Especially in offices.  I don't expect suit and tie, at all.  But shorts and flip-flops and what seems like beach wear worn by people at work doesn't sit right with me.


And for some reason, I'm most annoyed when I see people milling around the airport dressed as if for the beach.

Guess I'm old-fashioned.


matis

[Felonious Monk/Fignozzle]

I've never liked dressing up.

I still own one suit but can no longer fit into.  I had it made to measure in Hong Kong in the seventies (!).  I don't really know why it still hangs in my closet.  Perhaps as a reminder -- to highlight my hard-won freedom to dress as I like?
matis

Me, either.  Weddings and funerals when I must.  I do think our society has grown  more casual; nice polos and khakis, even clean, neat jeans and a button-down shirt are fine.  It's sad that it also opens the door for slobs and (here in AL) fat old women with no bra and (I am not making this up) Skoal spit running down the t-shirt.  Thankfully, that's few & far between, but jeans, shorts, t-shirts and sandals or tennis shoes are the norm.

To sum up:  I like casual.  CLEAN casual.  The Michael Moore style is disgusting.

[doczinn]

There is a bright side, guys. Dockers and a polo or anything better get you treated with a LOT more respect, all other things being equal. People don't make a conscious decision to do it, but they do it.