Author Topic: Let the panic buying resume: ATF proposes reclassifying steel core 5.56 as AP  (Read 22844 times)

charby

  • Necromancer
  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 29,295
  • APS's Resident Sikh/Muslim
This bothers me, because would a .270 Win shot from a T/C Encore/Contender handgun penetrate typical body armor?

Iowa- 88% more livable that the rest of the US

Uranus is a gas giant.

Team 444: Member# 536

Angel Eyes

  • Lying dog-faced pony soldier
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12,403
  • You're not diggin'
This bothers me, because would a .270 Win shot from a T/C Encore/Contender handgun penetrate typical body armor?

As I understand the regulations, if the material of the bullet core is harder than lead or copper, then it's considered AP.  It has nothing to do with actual performance.  At short distances, 55-grain M193 will penetrate Level III armor but it's not officially considered AP since it has a lead core.

The debate over M855/SS109 is the steel penetrator that sits ahead of the core and under the copper jacket.  BATFE seems to believe that the penetrator qualifies as part of the core, which makes M855 an armor-piercing round in their eyes.

Back to your example: as long as the .270 round has a soft (lead or copper) core, it won't be considered AP.
""If you elect me, your taxes are going to be raised, not cut."
                         - master strategist Joe Biden

Brad Johnson

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 18,103
  • Witty, charming, handsome, and completely insane.
The regs are simple, straightfoward, and unambiguous as to the bullet material and construction. The M855 projectile meets none of those criteria. Not even a 'close maybe'. In any category. At all.

The phrase that's causing all the probmlem is "...could be used in a handgun". (Emphasis mine -Brad) Legislation has already been introduced to solve the problem by changing the above phraseology to "specifically design for use in a handgun", or some close variant.

Brad
« Last Edit: March 03, 2015, 05:18:44 PM by Brad Johnson »
It's all about the pancakes, people.
"And he thought cops wouldn't chase... a STOLEN DONUT TRUCK???? That would be like Willie Nelson ignoring a pickup full of weed."
-HankB

charby

  • Necromancer
  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 29,295
  • APS's Resident Sikh/Muslim
As I understand the regulations, if the material of the bullet core is harder than lead or copper, then it's considered AP.  It has nothing to do with actual performance.  At short distances, 55-grain M193 will penetrate Level III armor but it's not officially considered AP since it has a lead core.

The debate over M855/SS109 is the steel penetrator that sits ahead of the core and under the copper jacket.  BATFE seems to believe that the penetrator qualifies as part of the core, which makes M855 an armor-piercing round in their eyes.

Back to your example: as long as the .270 round has a soft (lead or copper) core, it won't be considered AP.


Thanks!
Iowa- 88% more livable that the rest of the US

Uranus is a gas giant.

Team 444: Member# 536

MechAg94

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 33,812
So did any of you do any panic buying? 

All I have bought is a couple boxes of 308.  Finally put together my PSA 308 AR10 kit. 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

Andiron

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3,930
Found some 7.62x54 for 80 bucks a can.  Made me wish I'd have loaded up on it when it was 60.
"Leftism destroys everything good." -  Ron

There is no fixing stupid. But, you can line it up in front of a wall and offer it a last smoke.

There is no such thing as a "transgender" person.  Only mental illness that should be discouraged.

birdman

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3,831
As I understand the regulations, if the material of the bullet core is harder than lead or copper, then it's considered AP.  It has nothing to do with actual performance.  At short distances, 55-grain M193 will penetrate Level III armor but it's not officially considered AP since it has a lead core.

The debate over M855/SS109 is the steel penetrator that sits ahead of the core and under the copper jacket.  BATFE seems to believe that the penetrator qualifies as part of the core, which makes M855 an armor-piercing round in their eyes.

Back to your example: as long as the .270 round has a soft (lead or copper) core, it won't be considered AP.


NO!

Words mean things
the magic phrase is "projectile or projectile core

Specifically, the definition of “armor piercing ammunition” in 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(17)(B) provides:
Quote
(B) The term “armor piercing ammunition” means—
(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper or depleted uranium; or
(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.

Since the core is not ENTIRELY one of those materials, but rather lead with a steel tip, (i) doesn't apply, and since the jacket and tip combined don't exceed 25% (even if that mattered, as its 22 caliber), (II) doesn't apply either.

So it doesn't matter if its harder than jello, it matters the language of the law.
The ATF is IGNORING the clear language and saying the tip, being steel now comprises the ENTIRE CORE.

birdman

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3,831
also, since the law is very specific on materials, I think its time to make some rhenium-cored bullets.

Angel Eyes

  • Lying dog-faced pony soldier
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12,403
  • You're not diggin'
NO!

Words mean things
the magic phrase is "projectile or projectile core



That's what I get for relying on memory.

Birdman has it right.


""If you elect me, your taxes are going to be raised, not cut."
                         - master strategist Joe Biden

erictank

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2,410
That's what really bugs me about this. They keep claiming that their new "framework" makes it all legal - but a plain reading of the actual applicable law shows there's no question, M855
*DOES NOT QUALIFY AS AP*!

How do they imagine they can get away with this?

FYI - got an obvious (and oblivious) form letter back already from Sen Kaine regarding his staunch support for our fine law-enforcement officials who are so tragically imperiled by the mere possibility of being shot by M855 out of a thirty-freaking-year-old AR handgun design. Warner and Connolly have yet to respond, but I'm sure the letter will be the same. Not just the same general content - I expect it to be THE SAME LETTER, on their own letterhead. I'll let you know if that turns out to be the case.

brimic

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,270



The ATF is IGNORING the clear language and saying the tip, being steel now comprises the ENTIRE CORE.



Ningo!
To sum it up: The BATFE is ignoring the law. Again.
Nothing new here.
"now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb" -Dark Helmet

"AK47's belong in the hands of soldiers mexican drug cartels"-
Barack Obama

Hutch

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2,223
Regarding the misinterpretation of the regs... So what?  They will screw us on this.  The POTUS wants it, and this is just how it's gonna be.  Not all the sternly worded letters in the world will change this.
"My limited experience does not permit me to appreciate the unquestionable wisdom of your decision"

Seems like every day, I'm forced to add to the list of people who can just kiss my hairy ass.

Brad Johnson

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 18,103
  • Witty, charming, handsome, and completely insane.
Regarding the misinterpretation of the regs... So what?  They will screw us on this.  The POTUS wants it, and this is just how it's gonna be.  Not all the sternly worded letters in the world will change this.

But a good strong lawsuit decided by SCOTUS will. The ammo does not meet the characteristics of "Armor Piercing" as clearly defined in the 86 GOPA. There is no wiggle room. Not even close. If this goes before SCOTUS they will have no legal alternative but to rule against the new ban. Even lib judges will be so fenced in by the GOPA'S clear technical specifications that they will have to do some pretty fancy maneuvering to figure out how to dissent (though I'm sure they'll find a way). The ammo either does, or does not, meet the definition. If the plaintiff's attorney keeps it that openly simple and straightforward then the justices can only rule one way.

I don't see it going that far as the regulations are too straightforward and clear cut for it to see more than a halfhearted attempt at an effective appeal. I see it hitting a lower court or two and then being rejected by any higher court due to the rediculously simple yes/no nature of the case. Would be fun to hear a hard-line judge's opinion on the case. I could see much hilarity and organizational embarrassment ensuing.

Brad
« Last Edit: March 05, 2015, 02:49:06 PM by Brad Johnson »
It's all about the pancakes, people.
"And he thought cops wouldn't chase... a STOLEN DONUT TRUCK???? That would be like Willie Nelson ignoring a pickup full of weed."
-HankB

cordex

  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8,669
I wonder why no one has made a gilded steel projectile with a hole drilled dead center full of lead or an aluminum wire or something.

birdman

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3,831
I wonder why no one has made a gilded steel projectile with a hole drilled dead center full of lead or an aluminum wire or something.

And that's why the second rule re: jacket fraction exists.

HankB

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 16,668
. . . Even lib judges will be so fenced in by the GOPA'S clear technical specifications that they will have to do some pretty fancy maneuvering to figure out how to dissent (though I'm sure they'll find a way) . . .
"Steel tip is the core. Lead base is . . . uh . . . wait a minute . . . that's part of the core too. Uh oh . . . say, what if we just call the lead part of the core a base weight instead? Sure, that's it - the LEAD isn't the core, it's the BASE WEIGHT! So now we'll say whole core is steel, the lead base weight doesn't count, and the ammo is banned! Wheeee!"

"Now let's see if we can find a reason to prosecute people ex-post-facto . . . "

We'll have to start making bullet cores out of iridium or osmium . . .
Trump won in 2016. Democrats haven't been so offended since Republicans came along and freed their slaves.
Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it. - Mark Twain
Government is a broker in pillage, and every election is a sort of advance auction in stolen goods. - H.L. Mencken
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it. - Mark Twain

Hutch

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2,223
But a good strong lawsuit decided by SCOTUS will. The ammo does not meet the characteristics of "Armor Piercing" as clearly defined in the 86 GOPA. There is no wiggle room. Not even close. If this goes before SCOTUS they will have no legal alternative but to rule against the new ban. Even lib judges will be so fenced in by the GOPA'S clear technical specifications that they will have to do some pretty fancy maneuvering to figure out how to dissent (though I'm sure they'll find a way). The ammo either does, or does not, meet the definition. If the plaintiff's attorney keeps it that openly simple and straightforward then the justices can only rule one way.

I don't see it going that far as the regulations are too straightforward and clear cut for it to see more than a halfhearted attempt at an effective appeal. I see it hitting a lower court or two and then being rejected by any higher court due to the rediculously simple yes/no nature of the case. Would be fun to hear a hard-line judge's opinion on the case. I could see much hilarity and organizational embarrassment ensuing.

Brad
Yeah, well, immigration law is pretty clear, too.  Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see the F-troop and DOJ get smacked down hard.  I just don't expect it to happen.
"My limited experience does not permit me to appreciate the unquestionable wisdom of your decision"

Seems like every day, I'm forced to add to the list of people who can just kiss my hairy ass.

cordex

  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8,669
And that's why the second rule re: jacket fraction exists.
I was thinking jacketing the steel.  Would they call it double jacketed?

De Selby

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,840
This is a clear attempt to remake the law using executive power rather than going through the legislature.  A regulation can't exceed the authority granted to it under the law (and of course the power to regulate can only be delegated so much - separation of powers and all.)

I think there're some smart politics to be played following Heller.  Instead of subjecting every single state and the federal government to 50 years of lawsuits to work out what the law is, a new comprehensive Federal statute is in order.  The republicans could probably make big gains by establishing a committee to survey the available evidence on specific gun laws and public safety, and coming up to replace the existing scheme with something less ambiguous and subject to lawsuits.

A new statute that complies with Heller and does away with the byzantine and difficult to administer laws we have now might be achievable. 

I'm thinking something like a national licence endorsement, where you go in once to verify your identity and criminal record and come away with a sticker or note in a system that says you're good to walk out the store with guns.  Make it nationally consistent, so that the state of a person's residence or purchase is irrelevant to the check.

"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

cordex

  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8,669
I'm thinking something like a national licence endorsement, where you go in once to verify your identity and criminal record and come away with a sticker or note in a system that says you're good to walk out the store with guns.  Make it nationally consistent, so that the state of a person's residence or purchase is irrelevant to the check.
That is called NICS and has been around since the late 90s.

De Selby

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,840
That is called NICS and has been around since the late 90s.

NICS is great - it doesn't allow for interstate purchases or uniform rules about eligibility to purchase, though.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

RocketMan

  • Mad Rocket Scientist
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,650
  • Semper Fidelis
The regs are simple, straightfoward, and unambiguous as to the bullet material and construction. The M855 projectile meets none of those criteria. Not even a 'close maybe'. In any category. At all.

The BATFE pulled similar nonsense with the high power rocketry community not long after 9/11.  Our rocket fuel of choice, ammonium perchlorate composite propellant, or APCP, was reclassified by the BATFE gang as a low explosive.  APCP does not even come close to meeting the accepted scientific definition of a low explosive.  It doesn't even meet the BATFE's definition of a low explosive.

BATFE did this because, in their feeble minds, every HP rocketeer is a budding terrorist and must be discouraged from participating in the hobby.
After it was reclassified as LE, we all had to get low explosive user permits from BATFE, buy BATFE-approved magazines to store our rocket motors, and submit to random BATFE inspections of our magazines and usage logs.
It took a lawsuit waged over an almost ten year period through various courts to force the BATFE to remove APCP from their LE list.
Judge Reggie Walton of the United States District Court for the District of Columbia heard the final suit and slapped the BATFE down hard.  His written judgment was a thing of beauty.
No more LEUPs for the rocket community, but it took ten years and mucho lawyer fees to accomplish.

Bottom line, the BATFE has a history of doing things like this, where they violate their own regulations and existing law.  It will likely take years to get this ammo reclassification overturned if has to make its way through the courts.  Legislation would be much faster.
If there really was intelligent life on other planets, we'd be sending them foreign aid.

Conservatives see George Orwell's "1984" as a cautionary tale.  Progressives view it as a "how to" manual.

My wife often says to me, "You are evil and must be destroyed." She may be right.

Liberals believe one should never let reason, logic and facts get in the way of a good emotional argument.

erictank

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2,410
Well, I got a reply from Senator Warner's office regarding my contact with them about BATFE's naked attempt to violate federal law. While non-committal, it actually did not read like a form response at all, unlike Kaine's. Warner's office encouraged me to contact BATFE directly, provided multiple contact methods for me to do so, and stated that he would "keep [my] opinion in mind" if the issue came up in the Senate. Might still be a form letter (honestly, I'd be surprised if it were not), but it was nowhere NEAR as oblivious as Kaine's form letter rote-response.

Angel Eyes

  • Lying dog-faced pony soldier
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12,403
  • You're not diggin'
Looks like BATFE is doing a sort-of about-face on M855:

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2015/03/09/atf-does-about-face-on-ammo-ban-calls-it-publishing-mistake/

It was a "publishing mistake."
""If you elect me, your taxes are going to be raised, not cut."
                         - master strategist Joe Biden

Ben

  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 46,170
  • I'm an Extremist!
Looks like BATFE is doing a sort-of about-face on M855:

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2015/03/09/atf-does-about-face-on-ammo-ban-calls-it-publishing-mistake/

It was a "publishing mistake."


Of course we still have the problem of the guns that shoot the ammo being "easier to buy than vegetables" (I assume that includes arugula).
"I'm a foolish old man that has been drawn into a wild goose chase by a harpy in trousers and a nincompoop."