Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => Politics => Topic started by: WLJ on July 17, 2022, 08:36:35 PM
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Reported multiple people shot by man with rifle and several magazines.
Reported 4 dead
Shooting was reportedly stopped by person with a handgun. Shooter reported dead.
LIVE: 4 dead, 2 wounded in shooting at Greenwood Park Mall; Good Samaritan shot and killed shooter
https://www.wthr.com/article/news/local/multiple-victims-reported-in-shooting-at-greenwood-park-mall/531-df15bbf5-8eca-4220-b149-7de4735fbe37
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[tinfoil] mode on
That assault weapons bill is to be introduced tomorrow
[tinfoil] mode off
I hate [tinfoil] stuff but this getting ridiculous
Edit: Don't take this serious
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Also reports a group of teenagers were arguing at the time.
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Police Chief calling the Good Samaritan a hero
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Police Chief calling the Good Samaritan a hero
Police Chief also said he's proud of the law enforcement response.
"This has shaken us to our core. This isn't something we've seen in Greenwood before. It is absolutely horrendous," Ison said. He went on to say that they have trained for active shooter situations like this and he was proud of the response from law enforcement.
I guess that means they did a bang-up job or traffic control and forensic marking of shell casing locations after a 22-year-old private citizen took out the shooter for them.
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Haven't seen anything to criticize the police over yet
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Guy at Agenda-Free TV just pointed out this happened right at closing time. Seems an odd time to start a mass shooting if you want to maximize victims
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Guy at Agenda-Free TV just pointed out this happened right at closing time. Seems an odd time to start a mass shooting if you want to maximize victims
I saw it reported that it started as an argument between two groups.
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Haven't seen anything to criticize the police over yet
What's to criticize? It was over before they could respond. I'm not saying the cops did anything wrong in this case (unlike at Uvalde), but they also didn't do anything particularly noteworthy. For the chief to say he's "proud" of their response is a meaningless statement.
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Maybe he was proud they didn't shoot the good guy or any of the wounded?
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Maybe he was proud they didn't shoot the good guy or any of the wounded?
You mean use the NYPD method? Let God sort them out.
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[tinfoil] mode on
That assault weapons bill is to be introduced tomorrow
[tinfoil] mode off
I hate [tinfoil] stuff but this getting ridiculous
Edit: Don't take this serious
[tinfoil] The NRA did this, since Uvalde "debunked" the "good guy with a gun" idea. [tinfoil]
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I remember one of the times the mall I was in doing Santa had a protest go through it to "shut it down."
Gigglesnort.
So, there I am in the back of a shoe store, in the back room, because Santa is a magnet for the loonies, and one of the folks from the shoe store asks about what they should do if the "peaceful protesters" break the glass doors and come in.
"You guys go out the back door into the passages, head for your cars. I'll hold this door closed."
They looked at me like I was insane.
There were a few implements in that break room/closet that would have been quite useful. I did not elaborate.
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Both the Good Samaritan and the shooter somehow got guns pass the Mall's magic door stickers.
Police say the 22-year-old from Bartholomew County had a legal gun permit. However, according to mall policy, the man should not have been carrying his handgun in the mall in the first place.
Last updated in April 2020, Simon Property Group states in its code of conduct that no weapons are allowed at their shopping centers. The group is the owner of the Greenwood Park Mall.
And lets not forget IN became a Constitutional Carry state only just a little over two weeks ago. I'm sure that will be on the anti's blame check list for the shooting
I’m sure that in the wake of this shooting there will be a lot of debate about Indiana’s gun laws, which includes the Constitutional Carry law that went into effect on July 1st
Mass shooting at Indiana mall stopped by armed citizen
https://bearingarms.com/camedwards/2022/07/18/mass-shooting-at-indiana-mall-stopped-by-armed-citizen-n60500
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Even more amazing, MSN carried the story without a bunch of anti-gun political spin.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/hero-armed-citizen-in-mall-stopped-shooter-police-chief/ar-AAZGfGN?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=229dc817df914c32949bb8c059abf4e9&fbclid=IwAR3Rlm6tSmcq_kF-CXsbDh2yTRLQijmmSj7NYKSpSTpusdxzxyiryU9Bnvk
Brad
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Just noticed an oddity in the wording above and I know it's often worded that way
"had a legal gun permit"
That begs the question. Is there an illegal gun permit?
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And we now have this
Kris Brown | President, bradyunited.org
@KrisB_Brown
Here's what we're not going to do: continue to uplift the NRA myth of a "good guy with a gun."
Let me be clear: If more guns made us safer, America would be the safest country in the WORLD.
We need sensible gun laws, not vigilante safety nets. #GreenwoodMall #GunReformNow
Brady president paints Good Samaritan with a handgun as a ‘vigilante’ for taking down Greenwood Mall shooter and saving lives
https://twitchy.com/sarahd-313035/2022/07/18/brady-president-paints-good-samaritan-with-a-handgun-as-a-vigilante-for-taking-down-greenwood-mall-shooter-and-saving-lives/
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Even more amazing, MSN carried the story without a bunch of anti-gun political spin.
CNN managed to go into a whole spin about how rare a good guy with a gun is, and that mostly they get shot by police who don't know who they are. Also that most of them are off duty cops and security guards. So how do the cops know not to shoot those guys?
In checking a handful of news sources, I also saw many of them list the bad guy as one of the shooting victims.
On the mall having a "no guns" sign, does anyone know if violating a private property sign is simple trespassing in Indiana, or a specific crime? Funny that as the chief of police was praising the guy as a hero, the police PR dept needed to mention that he shouldn't have had a gun there.
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In checking a handful of news sources, I also saw many of them list the bad guy as one of the shooting victims.
Most outlets started doing that a while back, bumps up the body count a bit in the headlines. In this case 33%.
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On the mall having a "no guns" sign, does anyone know if violating a private property sign is simple trespassing in Indiana, or a specific crime? Funny that as the chief of police was praising the guy as a hero, the police PR dept needed to mention that he shouldn't have had a gun there.
Simple trespass in Indiana. Not a crime unless you get spotted and the mall asks you to leave.
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Most outlets started doing that a while back, bumps up the body count a bit in the headlines. In this case 33%.
This also allows the FBI to count more shootings as "mass" shootings, and more killings as "mass" killings.
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This also allows the FBI to count more shootings as "mass" shootings, and more killings as "mass" killings.
And all the gun control groups
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Suppose to be a press conference at
13:00 14:00 EDT
May be other links but this one popped up in my YT feed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6_9dnO2nQM
Edit: Make that 14:00 EDT
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And remember the good guy with a gun is just a myth.
https://redstate.com/smoosieq/2022/07/18/yet-another-good-guy-with-gun-story-this-time-in-missouri-n597036
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Press Conference has started
Another link https://www.wrtv.com/news/local-news/crime/watch-live-officials-provide-update-on-greenwood-mall-mass-shooting
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Sig M400 purchased in March
M&P15 found in bathroom where his backpack was found.
Glock 33
Only weapon used was the M400
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20 year old
Jonathan Douglas Sapirman
Had a juvenile record but no adult record
Enters the mall and goes straight to the food court restroom at 4:55
1 hour 2 minutes later exits the restroom and starts shooting
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"The shooter was carrying "legally" under the constitutional carry law."
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Cell phone found in toilet
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Laptop was found in his still running apartment oven along with a can of butane.
He had received an eviction notice.
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Shooter is white
And I'll have to go back and hear the names again but I think all the victims had Hispanic names. So guess what the MSM narrative will probably be.
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Good Samaritan used a 9mm. Don't recall hearing make/model
Shooter fired 24 rounds
GS 10
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[tinfoil] mode on
Right after the dems raise a stink over under 21 persons being able to buy "assault" weapons we get 3 highly publicized shooting by under 21 persons using an "assault" weapon"
[tinfoil] mode off
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Shooter walked to the mall.
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They're trying to see if data can be extracted from the laptop and cellphone. FBI has both.
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Photo of the now room temperature POS at link
https://fox59.com/news/indycrime/greenwood-park-mall-shooting-what-we-know-so-far/
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They are certainly working overtime to make the good guy the bad guy:
https://twitchy.com/sarahd-313035/2022/07/18/if-we-didnt-know-any-better-we-might-think-shannon-watts-was-disappointed-more-people-werent-murdered-in-greenwood-mall-shooting/
Best comment:
One civilian with a gun was more effective than 400 cops with guns, and this is the lunacy that spews forth from this woman's brain.
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I remember one of the times the mall I was in doing Santa had a protest go through it to "shut it down."
Gigglesnort.
So, there I am in the back of a shoe store, in the back room, because Santa is a magnet for the loonies, and one of the folks from the shoe store asks about what they should do if the "peaceful protesters" break the glass doors and come in.
"You guys go out the back door into the passages, head for your cars. I'll hold this door closed."
They looked at me like I was insane.
There were a few implements in that break room/closet that would have been quite useful. I did not elaborate.
I've recommended several times to head for a store and get out the back way since there's always at least a corridor to the loading docks and the outdoors.
Terry, 230RN
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https://www.politico.com/news/2022/07/16/neo-nazi-white-supremacist-teenagers-00045589
I wonder just how much crossover there is between young men that go on a shooting spree versus joining neo-Nazi organizations.
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https://www.politico.com/news/2022/07/16/neo-nazi-white-supremacist-teenagers-00045589
I wonder just how much crossover there is between young men that go on a shooting spree versus joining neo-Nazi organizations.
What kind of crossover are you hypothesizing? Shared demographics or individuals who do both?
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What kind of crossover are you hypothesizing? Shared demographics or individuals who do both?
Factors in common. Are there demographic, environmental, cultural, or other factors that are found in young men who go on shooting sprees or join violent political groups (left or right). I am sure that people who study recruitment into terrorist groups, for example, know this. Here in the US, for example, you probably don't have the religious or cultural aspects that inspire young men to plant an IED on a Middle Eastern street.
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Factors in common. Are there demographic, environmental, cultural, or other factors that are found in young men who go on shooting sprees or join violent political groups (left or right). I am sure that people who study recruitment into terrorist groups, for example, know this.
I could buy that.
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https://babylonbee.com/news/uvalde-police-criticize-indiana-mall-armed-citizen-for-not-waiting-around-outside-for-an-hour
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Ouch!
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And remember the good guy with a gun is just a myth.
https://redstate.com/smoosieq/2022/07/18/yet-another-good-guy-with-gun-story-this-time-in-missouri-n597036
A 3-store crime spree. All places I pass by regularly. The first one is right outside what my wife and I call the man mall: Bass Pro, 5.11, Duluth Trading, and a place that sells Carhartt and Liberty safes. I guess at 3 am, none of their customers will be in the area, so that doesn't matter.
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Over the cop grapevine I heard that the good guy put three rounds into the bad guy from 40 yards with a G19 supported on a trash can. Two torso hits and a headshot.
Where exactly that falls in the 10 rounds he is alleged to have expended I don’t know.
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According to this article from Fox, gun control advocates are losing their *expletive deleted*it that the guy who killed the shooter is being called a good samaritan.
https://www.foxnews.com/us/gun-control-advocates-stunned-man-allegedly-shot-indiana-mall-shooter-labeled-good-samaritan
Pathetic losers. Their only desire, in my opinion, is to have as many dead defenseless individuals as possible as a means of furthering their agenda.
More slaughtered women, children, nuns? GOOD!
Dead gunman killed by a legally armed citizen striving to save lives? TRAVESTY! HORROR! HE SHOULD BE PROSECUTED!
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According to this article from Fox, gun control advocates are losing their *expletive deleted*it that the guy who killed the shooter is being called a good samaritan.
https://www.foxnews.com/us/gun-control-advocates-stunned-man-allegedly-shot-indiana-mall-shooter-labeled-good-samaritan
Pathetic losers. Their only desire, in my opinion, is to have as many dead defenseless individuals as possible as a means of furthering their agenda.
More slaughtered women, children, nuns? GOOD!
Dead gunman killed by a legally armed citizen striving to save lives? TRAVESTY! HORROR! HE SHOULD BE PROSECUTED!
HE. BROKE. MALL. POLICY. Our democracy is at risk.
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HE. BROKE. MALL. POLICY. Our democracy is at risk.
They should put his ignoring the signs on his PERMANENT RECORD
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Schiff will soon be saying he has evidence linking him to Jan 6
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I heard the good guy initially engaged the shooter at 40 or 50 yards across the food court. I saw a clip of the police complimenting his shooting and tactics. He apparently opened fire and then started closing the distance. I assume he managed to hit the guy bad enough he tried to retreat back to the bathroom. They said he only fired 10 rounds so his accuracy was good enough.
https://www.cnn.com/2022/07/17/us/indiana-greenwood-park-mall-shooting/index.html
"He engaged the gunman from quite a distance with a handgun -- was very proficient in that, very tactically sound and as he moved to close in on the suspect he was also motioning for people to exit behind him," Ison said. "Many more people would have died last night if not for a responsible armed citizen that took action very quickly within the first two minutes of the shooting."
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https://www.wcpo.com/news/crime/greenwood-park-mall-mass-shooting-first-victim-had-a-gun-no-time-to-use-it
One victim was carrying, but shot before he could use it.
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Ison explained to WRTV, Dicken’s first shot at the gunman was from 40-50 yards away and it appeared the very first shot hit the gunman.
Dicken was able to hit the gunman with additional rounds.
Dicken was carrying a 9-MM Glock, according to Ison. After confirming the shooter was no longer a threat, Dicken approached mall security and cooperated with officers, according to Ison.
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/the-greenwood-mall-shooting-should-end-claims-of-the-danger-of-permitless-concealed-carry/
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It is interesting to see the 40 to 50 yards mentioned. I have seen people on gun forums challenge why anyone would need to shoot that far for carry. Well, this is a good example. Not quite the scenario I have heard mentioned but certainly a good one. I haven't been to Memorial City mall in Houston in quite a while, but I think it is easily 100 yards across that food court. I heard someone mention just the distance across the main walk ways in a good sized mall can be a pretty good distance for pistol shooting.
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Notes were misread at press conference.
15 seconds not two minutes
Police update timeline, say man took down Greenwood Park Mall shooter in just 15 seconds
https://twitchy.com/brettt-3136/2022/07/19/police-update-timeline-say-man-took-down-greenwood-park-mall-shooter-in-just-15-seconds/
Also comment says shooter was hit 8 times.
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I read somewhere that the DA wants to charge the good Samaritan for carrying in the mall.
:facepalm:
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I read somewhere that the DA wants to charge the good Samaritan for carrying in the mall.
:facepalm:
Would not surprise me one bit.
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I don’t believe there is anything the DA could charge the good guy with. Carry was legal under the new carry law. Signs do not carry the weight of law in Indiana. The shooting was as clean as you could ask for.
Unless there is some sort of school in the mall I haven’t heard about …
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Deleted, wrong thread
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Notes were misread at press conference.
15 seconds not two minutes
Police update timeline, say man took down Greenwood Park Mall shooter in just 15 seconds
https://twitchy.com/brettt-3136/2022/07/19/police-update-timeline-say-man-took-down-greenwood-park-mall-shooter-in-just-15-seconds/
Also comment says shooter was hit 8 times.
This guy's more Rittenhouse than Rittenhouse. Neither had a permit to carry, or (reportedly) extensive training. Both put down threats, w/o collateral damage, except for gun control narratives. Both great exemplars for constitutional carry.
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This guy's more Rittenhouse than Rittenhouse. Neither had a permit to carry, or (reportedly) extensive training. Both put down threats, w/o collateral damage, except for gun control narratives. Both great exemplars for constitutional carry.
From photos, this guy looks like the most white bread /works his 40 hours / goes to church on Sunday / gives to charity suburban white boy you could find. Of course the left is going to try to fry him as being worse than the actual shooter.
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Rittenhouse 3 (2 dead, 1 wounded)
Dicken 1
Be interesting to see if the MSM hounds him like they still do Rittenhouse.
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I saw an analysis that is food for thought: They were talking OODA loop and how fast this kid was, and that his initial action threw the bad guy back into step two of OODA. That would make sense from a press conference I heard with the chief of police who said the shooter attempted to flee the scene after being engaged, but was put down before he could get behind cover in the bathroom.
I'm thinking most of these shooters don't expect a civilian to do anything in a "gun free zone", and unlike the prep this shooter might have had if he saw uniforms heading his way, the guy in the shorts and t-shirt threw him for a loop. =)
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Rittenhouse 3 (2 dead, 1 wounded)
Dicken 1
Be interesting to see if the MSM hounds him like they still do Rittenhouse.
Dicken is a hero.
Rittenhouse is a "murderer."
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Also, tangent, this incident is a good reminder for me to stop concentrating so much on three yards and <1 second and to throw a mag or two of accurate fire farther downrange when I'm at the gun club.
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Rittenhouse 3 (2 dead, 1 wounded)
Dicken 1
Be interesting to see if the MSM hounds him like they still do Rittenhouse.
Do we know his state of residence? Heaven help the poor lad if it turns out he crossed state lines.
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I really need to start doing more longer distance practice with handguns. 40 yards is somewhat impressive. I’ve made longer shots, but not generally under any pressure. Of course I haven’t had 22 year old eyes in almost 30 years, those distances seem to be getting a little harder every year; but still.
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Do we know his state of residence? Heaven help the poor lad if it turns out he crossed state lines.
Seymour, Indiana. Halfway between Louisville and Indianapolis up I-65. Not too far from me in SE Louisville
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Seymour, Indiana. Halfway between Louisville and Indianapolis up I-65. Not too far from me in SE Louisville
He crossed county lines!!!
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Also, tangent, this incident is a good reminder for me to stop concentrating so much on three yards and <1 second and to throw a mag or two of accurate fire farther downrange when I'm at the gun club.
When I could shoot many nights a week I always closed the session with a nra 25 yard pistol target and tried to concentrate past all the quick draw McGraw stuff I had been doing. Catch myself cheating on my flinch mostly. For really long range you need to practice with your carry ammo. Me and a glock I would always have to hold under the 75 and 100 yard steel just with where I had the sights set, many people make the mistake of over compensating and shooting high at long range.
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Rittenhouse 3 (2 dead, 1 wounded)
Dicken 1
Be interesting to see if the MSM hounds him like they still do Rittenhouse.
Rittenhouse had a rifle.
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I really need to start doing more longer distance practice with handguns. 40 yards is somewhat impressive. I’ve made longer shots, but not generally under any pressure. Of course I haven’t had 22 year old eyes in almost 30 years, those distances seem to be getting a little harder every year; but still.
The indoor range where I shoot only goes to 25 yards. Yes, scoring a hit on his first shot (as was reported) at 40 to 50 yards is VERY impressive. I don't think I would have taken that shot. If I had, I'd rate my likelihood of a hit at 25% or lower.
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From photos, this guy looks like the most white bread /works his 40 hours / goes to church on Sunday / gives to charity suburban white boy you could find. Of course the left is going to try to fry him as being worse than the actual shooter.
Liberals reading that description...
HE MUST BE DESTROYED!
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I've seen somewhere that he supposedly braced himself on a trash can and used it as a shooting rest and that's how he was able to get his hits so quickly and accurately.
That means we need to pass a law banning trash cans.
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If I had, I'd rate my likelihood of a hit at 25% or lower.
Apparently this kid had an 80% hit rate. That's better than a lot of the cop stories I have read with the cops shooting at CQB ranges. If I were on the other side of the argument, I would put lefty tinfoil on my head and call it a setup to put "good guy with a gun" in a positive light. You couldn't ask for a better example of it than this. =)
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Apparently this kid had an 80% hit rate. That's better than a lot of the cop stories I have read with the cops shooting at CQB ranges. If I were on the other side of the argument, I would put lefty tinfoil on my head and call it a setup to put "good guy with a gun" in a positive light. You couldn't ask for a better example of it than this. =)
y u tryin 2 b like me?
https://www.armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=66995.msg1364426#msg1364426
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Note to self:
Go to Sams, buy lots of foil. Call Cardinal aluminum, order industrial roll.
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I'll usually close out my shooting day with a magazine at 100yds. Freehand I'm at like 40% hit, resting on a table or something like 70%ish. Trigger control becomes very important at that. For my rig, 100yd hold over is put the dot right on the neck of the silhouette.
That guy made some pretty nice shots under pressure. I read that he rested it on a trash can for the initial shots. Good use of bracing, and concealment.
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On another forum I saw a picture of the bad guy kitted out to fight, and then another shot of him ... well ... shot.
Dude was a scarecrow. Not a big target at all.
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On another forum I saw a picture of the bad guy kitted out to fight, and then another shot of him ... well ... shot.
Dude was a scarecrow. Not a big target at all.
Seems like in all the recent "mass" shootings the shooters have been extremely skinny by American standards at least. The Highland Park shooter was a toothpick
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A lot of progressive liberals STILL think that what Rittenhouse did was shoot up a BLM march...
Seriously.
As for the shooter's behavior?
Here's an old blog, but it seems to work true...
https://dailyanarchist.com/2012/07/31/auditing-shooting-rampage-statistics/
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A lot of progressive liberals STILL think that what Rittenhouse did was shoot up a BLM march...
Seriously.
As for the shooter's behavior?
Here's an old blog, but it seems to work true...
https://dailyanarchist.com/2012/07/31/auditing-shooting-rampage-statistics/
Interesting, thanks.
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https://dailyanarchist.com/2012/07/31/auditing-shooting-rampage-statistics/
According to the above link
Note: The article at the link is dated 2012
The average number of people killed in mass shootings when stopped by police is 14.29
The average number of people killed in a mass shooting when stopped by a civilian is 2.33
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When seconds count, police are sanitizing their hands.
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Have you ever heard a shot fired in a public place that isn't a range?
I have. It was at a gun show. You coulda heard a pin drop except for the noise of neck cracks as the ol' boys swivelnecked looking for what happened.
Some idjit bounced one off the floor into his own leg.
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Have you ever heard a shot fired in a public place that isn't a range?
I have. It was at a gun show. You coulda heard a pin drop except for the noise of neck cracks as the ol' boys swivelnecked looking for what happened.
Some idjit bounced one off the floor into his own leg.
Not in public but in the field the sound of a round wizzing by inches from your nugget will never be forgotten.
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I notice that Youtube gun channels are filling up with videos of the "Dickens Drill" - 10 rounds, 40 yards, <15 seconds. =)
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Photo of the shooter post Dickens
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/hwfo-the-only-way-to-reduce-mass-shootings-is-for-more-eli-dickens-to-kill-more-shooters/
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Went and shot a few pistols at 50 yards yesterday. Nothing to write home about, but I could put rounds on a silhouette. I was deliberately not trying to do slow aimed fire. More like 1 or 2 rounds per second.
I guess it is a lesson that all guns are different. My Arex pistols were both shooting high at 50 yards. I would need to make a point to aim at the belly button to insure body hits. Never noticed them shooting high at 25 yards or less.
An HK and a 1911 were on target. The 1911 was accurate enough it made me think about carrying that again.
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Went and shot a few pistols at 50 yards yesterday. Nothing to write home about, but I could put rounds on a silhouette. I was deliberately not trying to do slow aimed fire. More like 1 or 2 rounds per second.
I guess it is a lesson that all guns are different. My Arex pistols were both shooting high at 50 yards. I would need to make a point to aim at the belly button to insure body hits. Never noticed them shooting high at 25 rounds or less.
An HK and a 1911 were on target. The 1911 was accurate enough it made me think about carrying that again.
And it's amazing sometimes how much different ammo can effect your group placement at 7 yards let alone 40
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This showed up in my Book of Faces feed. Dave Spaulding, Handgun Combatives (https://www.facebook.com/handguncombatives).
Additional info from the Indiana Mall shooting from a law enforcement friend living in the area...
"Got some info from a Simon Properties guy who has watched the Greenwood mall active shooter attack video footage. He doesn't think about the details like we do, but I confirmed a few things thru him.
The distance at which Eli Dickens fired was 43 yards, according to the computerized AI video system there in the mall. The system is accurate to within ten feet.
Eli was up out of his chair within seconds and engaged with the shooter.
Eli fired from around the side of a flat-topped, squared-sided trash bin next to a floor-to-ceiling column or pillar there inside the building. He was shooting from what we'd refer to as a "strong-side barricade" position. Using the side of the bin to stabilize his grip and weapon. The guy told me it looked more like he was crouched there as opposed to kneeling.
It appears Eli made a kill shot with the first round he fired based on the suspect's reaction. His second round was a hit also. The active shooter simply wilted after being shot and showed no interest in doing anything other than getting back into the men's restroom door. The active shooter never fired at Eli, never even swung his gun toward him. It appears that he wasn't expecting anyone else to have a gun.
After the active shooter collapsed, he kept moving, and Eli continued to fire until the target's movements halted. Eli hit with 8 of the 10 shots he fired. It was a blessing that the active shooter collapsed so quickly. It's always easier to hit a stationary target.
There appear to have been bystanders running for the nearby exit door near the confrontation. I don't understand people running toward or past people who are armed and shooting at someone. But people do strange things when they're under stress.
This part is in no way confirmed, but another security guy at the Greenwood mall said the empty casings from Eli's pistol were marked with Federal Cartridge headstamps.
I find it interesting that the active shooter was psychologically out of the fight pretty much immediately upon being shot. That's largely been the case with active shooter incidents since we've been keeping stats on them in the 1990's. Except, of course, for the ones involving militarized terrorists, like the Inland Empire (California) attack in 2012. I'm thinking of the active shooters involving suspects who are weasel-dick incel civilians like the recent ones in Highland Park and Buffalo."
So, a couple layers of hearsay. But interesting.
There's also pics of of the deceased perp floating around.
https://www.facebook.com/handguncombatives/posts/6023098774372092 (https://www.facebook.com/handguncombatives/posts/6023098774372092)
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This is also good counter-ammunition against magazine capacity limits.
No one is threatening Eli with use of excessive force for firing 10 rounds. Everyone is congratulating him on a spectacular hit rate of 80%. Had this been two shooters or more, Eli's sole magazine would have been insufficient to the task. An artificial 10rd capacity limit is unreasonable in context that 10 rounds were discharged to safely and confidently neutralize this single threat. You shoot until the threat is clearly neutralized. It took Eli 8 hits and 10 rounds to do so. Fairly certain it would take an NYC cop at least 56 rounds to get the same number of hits.
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This showed up in my Book of Faces feed. Dave Spaulding, Handgun Combatives (https://www.facebook.com/handguncombatives).
There's also pics of of the deceased perp floating around.
WLJ’s link has a dead man photo
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Just noticed, looks like he wore his mask in that photo. Good boy.
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Eli is amazing.
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This is also good counter-ammunition against magazine capacity limits.
No one is threatening Eli with use of excessive force for firing 10 rounds.
Possibly dumb question, but the "10 rounds" got me wondering - he didn't only have a 10 round mag, did he? AFAIK, we don't yet have concrete evidence that he was using a Glock 19, even though that seems to be the popular theory.
Also, as a die hard 1911 fanboi, as much as it pains me, I certainly have to consider the round count in this incident.
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Eli is amazing.
I think he already has a girlfriend, Pb.
;)
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He just wants to date him
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Possibly dumb question, but the "10 rounds" got me wondering - he didn't only have a 10 round mag, did he? AFAIK, we don't yet have concrete evidence that he was using a Glock 19, even though that seems to be the popular theory.
Also, as a die hard 1911 fanboi, as much as it pains me, I certainly have to consider the round count in this incident.
I've seen a meme suggesting it was a Springfield Hellcat, but I've also heard G19.
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I think he already has a girlfriend, Pb.
;)
:mad:
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(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/x383/WLJohnson1/IMG_20220720_140441-1068x1057.jpg)
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^^^
Good one. =)
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I've seen a meme suggesting it was a Springfield Hellcat, but I've also heard G19.
I have heard it was a Hellcat lately also.
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The Dicken drill. Garand Thumb
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mA7Rb-EX4K4
I heard a variation of this to start at 50 yards and move forward to 40 yards before shooting.
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(https://64.media.tumblr.com/d67204461546e06bd194ce5bf7932ae5/ee17f07fffd3c67f-82/s1280x1920/bf3428c9ffcf3cc41220679dd282996490777302.jpg)
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Mom's Demand Action always sounds like a porn movie series to me.
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The Dicken drill. Garand Thumb
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mA7Rb-EX4K4
"Desert Snoring Institute"?
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"Desert Snoring Institute"?
Probably a reference to this:
https://www.sdi.edu
They sponsor a bunch of guntubers.
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"Desert Snoring Institute"?
Was this intended to be facetious? The Sonoran Desert Institute is a highly respected school of gunsmithing.
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Was this intended to be facetious? The Sonoran Desert Institute is a highly respected school of gunsmithing.
Garand Thumb.
On the tangent, what's with all the guntubers growing porn 'staches?
Apparently Garand Thumb recently got out with a medical, and the first thing he did was grow a Black Rifle Coffee mustache. :laugh:
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Also, is it just me, or has this pretty much disappeared from the news? This humble kid is now the ultimate definition of "good guy with a gun". Terrible thing for the MSM.
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Also, is it just me, or has this pretty much disappeared from the news? This humble kid is now the ultimate definition of "good guy with a gun". Terrible thing for the MSM.
It's not just you. It HAD to be removed from the news cycle as quickly as possible, otherwise more Americans might get the idea that they really can protect themselves and others.
That can't be permitted.
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I just watched the GT video, which brought up something I wasn't thinking about: The shooter was a skinny ass (what the GT guys called a "twink" :laugh: ) guy who was likely bladed towards Eli. How much harder is that shot from 40 yards? Man. Seems like the Dicken Drill should be a 3' tall by 10" wide target. =)
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Also, is it just me, or has this pretty much disappeared from the news?
Double narrative violation.
1) No MAGA hat found both literally and figuratively. Same can be said of the other recent shootings where you'll note pretty much all coverage of the shooters has disappeared. They're hardly even mentioned in reports now if at all.
2) The mall shooting as both you and others noted further violates the narrative in having a good guy with a gun.
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Double narrative violation.
1) No MAGA hat found both literally and figuratively. Same can be said of the other recent shootings where you'll note pretty much all coverage of the shooters has disappeared. They're hardly even mentioned in reports now if at all.
2) The mall shooting as both you and others noted further violates the narrative in having a good guy with a gun.
And (3) Being highly effective with the aforementioned gun. If Dicken had been shot (or even killed) himself, the MSM would be creaming in their drawers about being able to report that a "good guy with a gun" failed to stop the shooting because he wasn't a highly-trained donut eater police officer..
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Was this intended to be facetious? The Sonoran Desert Institute is a highly respected school of gunsmithing.
I'm fairly certain it was an attempt at humor.
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I just watched the GT video, which brought up something I wasn't thinking about: The shooter was a skinny ass (what the GT guys called a "twink" :laugh: ) guy who was likely bladed towards Eli. How much harder is that shot from 40 yards? Man. Seems like the Dicken Drill should be a 3' tall by 10" wide target. =)
Club I used to shoot at would have a whole lot of really close fast targets and then stick a few US poppers(the itty bitty ones) at 35 yards and maybe a few 6” plates. That was misery for many.
A bowling pin isn’t a terrible approximation of the vitals of a little bladed weirdo either.
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I've seen a meme suggesting it was a Springfield Hellcat, but I've also heard G19.
A bit more hearsay from the mall people via Handgun Combatives: https://www.facebook.com/handguncombatives/posts/6036231626392140 (https://www.facebook.com/handguncombatives/posts/6036231626392140)
A little bit more info from my friend in Indiana. Again, this is not verified, but there is no reason to think he is not being told what the source believes he is seeing. It is also possible he has a ten round magazine in a Glock 19. FYI only.
"More info from the guy at Simon Properties. He is somewhat familiar with the Glock line of handguns, and he's of the opinion that Eli Dicken did not have a 17. He thinks it looked more like a compact of some kind. (Eli was dressed in a T-shirt, shorts and sneakers.) He did say that in re-watching the footage, it looks like Eli's slide locked to the rear after his 10 shot string. So...that'd be what, a Model 48 or 43X? I asked if it looked like Eli reloaded and he said he couldn't tell from the camera angle on that video footage. It's all still a guess at this point, but I thought you'd want to know. "
As I said in an earlier post, we will know the real story once the investigation wraps up.
So, possibly a 43x or 48 if it is a Glock, seeing as it's not likely to be a stupid state compliant version of the G19.
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A bit more hearsay from the mall people via Handgun Combatives: https://www.facebook.com/handguncombatives/posts/6036231626392140 (https://www.facebook.com/handguncombatives/posts/6036231626392140)
So, possibly a 43x or 48 if it is a Glock, seeing as it's not likely to be a stupid state compliant version of the G19.
G26 uses a 10rd mag and is far more concealable IMHO than those
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Just to be clear, I was under the impression that he fired 10 rounds because that was all he needed, not that he ran out. Did you see something different?
I am curious about the gun he used, but isn't that important. I think I will start carrying a gun with a red dot soon. I need to make sure I check it out at 50 yards. At the least, it will help me dial in the red dot better than I could at 15 yards.
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Was this intended to be facetious? The Sonoran Desert Institute is a highly respected school of gunsmithing.
Finally got around to watching the video. They made a joke about the name as they were listing their sponsors.
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Related:
https://twitchy.com/sarahd-313035/2022/07/27/watch-restaurant-patrons-arent-bothered-by-guy-getting-beat-up-by-violent-thugs-until-the-victim-pulls-out-a-gun-to-defend-himself/
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Related:
https://twitchy.com/sarahd-313035/2022/07/27/watch-restaurant-patrons-arent-bothered-by-guy-getting-beat-up-by-violent-thugs-until-the-victim-pulls-out-a-gun-to-defend-himself/
Gun-toting white supremacist should have been informed that "everybody takes a beating sometimes."
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Gun-toting white supremacist should have been informed that "everbody takes white people deserve a beating sometimes."
FIFY
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So we had a Dicken Drill at an IDPA match today. Not legal IDPA stage so side match type thing. 40 yards off hand standing in a box 10 rounds in 15.30 secs or less at standard IDPA target. I hit 7 out 10 in about 12 seconds. It’s not a bad drill, but would be hard to justify self defense at that range in most circumstances.
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So we had a Dicken Drill at an IDPA match today. Not legal IDPA stage so side match type thing. 40 yards off hand standing in a box 10 rounds in 15.30 secs or less at standard IDPA target. I hit 7 out 10 in about 12 seconds. It’s not a bad drill, but would be hard to justify self defense at that range in most circumstances.
I think if most people thought about it when they were running errands, there are number of places they go where 30 to 100 yard ranges are possible. The odds of the right circumstances happening requiring use a pistol at that distance are pretty small. Then again, the odds of needs your pistol at all are pretty small for the average person.
The biggest thing for me is thinking about that extra accuracy requirement at 50 yards helps with shorter ranges as well. Gives me a standard of accuracy to work towards.
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I think if most people thought about it when they were running errands, there are number of places they go where 30 to 100 yard ranges are possible. The odds of the right circumstances happening requiring use a pistol at that distance are pretty small. Then again, the odds of needs your pistol at all are pretty small for the average person.
The biggest thing for me is thinking about that extra accuracy requirement at 50 yards helps with shorter ranges as well. Gives me a standard of accuracy to work towards.
Absolutely agree with this. It’s why I thought to post about it. I’ve carried pretty much every day for over 25 years. It’s been a handful of times I’ve even considered drawing a firearm. I’ve never needed to. I had mostly forgotten about even practicing with a pistol at this range since the incident originating this thread outside the occasional can I hit that steel plate on the 100 yard range with a pistol thing just for fun. I was happy to see this drill in the match.
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I rarely practice at more than 15 yards. At 25, all I can deliver is suppressive fire. Forty yards, for me, I'd be better off calling 911 and waiting.
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I have yet to draw during a case when I thought I might "need" to.
Generally a hand in the pocket, and a loud "get the BLEEP away from me" works good enough at the local stop'n'robs...
<I have made friends with a few of the local security folks... they seem to like the display>
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I rarely practice at more than 15 yards. At 25, all I can deliver is suppressive fire. Forty yards, for me, I'd be better off calling 911 and waiting.
The instructors at the Sig Academy no longer practice under 15 yards.
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I rarely practice at more than 15 yards. At 25, all I can deliver is suppressive fire. Forty yards, for me, I'd be better off calling 911 and waiting.
15 yards is probably fine for most practice. I just like to shoot a few rounds at longer ranges so I have a good idea where that particular gun shoots at range. A couple of guns I carry occasionally shot pretty high at 50 yards which I didn't expect.
Last weekend, I shot a couple guns I have out for home defense often enough. I hadn't shot them in at least a few years. One was probably 5 years. The FNX-45 had no issues. The XD45 had a couple of failures to feed. What struck me was I was shooting more accurately than the last time I remember shooting either gun. I think the last couple years of being more careful about what I do with each round when practicing has helped me out a bit.
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The instructors at the Sig Academy no longer practice under 15 yards.
Snobs.
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The instructors at the Sig Academy no longer practice under 15 yards.
Maybe we won't have to see the repeated video clips of people drawing on a target at arms length.
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[tinfoil] mode on
That assault weapons bill is to be introduced tomorrow
[tinfoil] mode off
I hate [tinfoil] stuff but this getting ridiculous
Edit: Don't take this serious
Correlation does not imply causation but enough 2 + 2s add up after a while.
Guy at Agenda-Free TV just pointed out this happened right at closing time. Seems an odd time to start a mass shooting if you want to maximize victims
But it's a great time to maximize robbery receipts.
ETA Just in on newsTV, a significant shooting event in NC. Details sketchy at 7:03 PM MDT.
2+2+2 =6
ETA2 See MechAg94 at
https://www.armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=67454.0
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Family of one of the injured is suing the mall and the mall's security company saying they should have known of the risk of active shooters and should have known the shooter's backpack seen on security cameras before he entered the mall could have held a "assault" rifle and based on that they should have evacuated the mall.
Family of Greenwood Park Mall Shooting Victim Files Lawsuit
https://bearingarms.com/tomknighton/2024/01/03/greenwood-park-mall-2-n78946
The backpack in question
(https://media.tegna-media.com/assets/WTHR/images/ced5da3d-9b51-4a70-867c-6c70be2abdce/ced5da3d-9b51-4a70-867c-6c70be2abdce_1920x1080.jpg)
Both girls survived, but the family alleges Simon should have known the risk of active shooters and had better security. The lawsuit claims the shooter walked from his home through the mall's parking lot past "multiple security patrols and video cameras" before entering the mall. The suit says the gunman was carrying "a long, black backpack consistent with those used to tote rifles and other assault weapons" as he walked through the lot and the mall.
The lawsuit claims the defendants did not take action to evacuate shoppers as the suspect entered the mall and spent more than an hour in a bathroom, reportedly preparing for the shooting. The family also claims no security personnel were present in the food court when the shooting occurred and that no Simon employees or security officers checked on the man while he was in the bathroom prior to the shooting.
'My family is hurting' | Father of daughter shot in Greenwood Park Mall shooting explains lawsuit against Simon Property Group, security company
https://www.wthr.com/article/news/local/family-greenwood-park-mall-shooting-victims-sues-simon-property-group-security-company/531-4d66c4f8-9955-4bb7-b551-19f2de68ea8d
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They gonna sue Dickens next?
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They gonna sue Dickens next?
When I first saw the headline that's what I though it was going to be about.
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When I first saw the headline that's what I though it was going to be about.
If anybody ends up suing him, then our society just sucks. This was one of those cases where the good guy did everything right. Including staying under the radar during and after.
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If anybody ends up suing him, then our society just sucks. This was one of those cases where the good guy did everything right. Including staying under the radar during and after.
I'm sure there a lawyer or two out there that could come up with something no matter how insane it may sound to us.
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They gonna sue Dickens next?
Of course. He should have known, and shot BEFORE Sapirman opened fire.
"Should." The basis of every lawsuit.
Elizabeth Jackson was right. (https://storyspeaker.wordpress.com/2012/04/20/letter-to-andrew-jackson-from-his-mother/)
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They gonna sue Dickens next?
His pockets are probably not deep enough to make it worthwhile.
Simon Property Group, on the other hand ...