Author Topic: Amazingly even-handed editorial in the NYT  (Read 2081 times)

Hutch

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Amazingly even-handed editorial in the NYT
« on: May 23, 2012, 08:59:26 PM »
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/23/us/politics/presidential-race-pits-government-against-business.html?_r=1

I've often wondered if we could distill the statist viewpoint and the laissez-faire viewpoint into non-partisan terms, devoid of the usual rancor.  Of all media treatments of this discord, I think this belongs in the hall of fame.  And it's published in the Gray Lady, of all sources.  Wonders never cease.
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RevDisk

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Re: Amazingly even-handed editorial in the NYT
« Reply #1 on: May 29, 2012, 02:58:53 PM »
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/23/us/politics/presidential-race-pits-government-against-business.html?_r=1

I've often wondered if we could distill the statist viewpoint and the laissez-faire viewpoint into non-partisan terms, devoid of the usual rancor.  Of all media treatments of this discord, I think this belongs in the hall of fame.  And it's published in the Gray Lady, of all sources.  Wonders never cease.

Wish we could add an option on the ballot to ban both candidates from holding office.
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Balog

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Re: Amazingly even-handed editorial in the NYT
« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2012, 03:15:18 PM »
For once, I'd love to see a political talking head distinguish between "pro-business" and "pro-free markets" instead of acting like they are the same thing.
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AJ Dual

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Re: Amazingly even-handed editorial in the NYT
« Reply #3 on: May 29, 2012, 05:00:00 PM »
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/23/us/politics/presidential-race-pits-government-against-business.html?_r=1

I've often wondered if we could distill the statist viewpoint and the laissez-faire viewpoint into non-partisan terms, devoid of the usual rancor. Of all media treatments of this discord, I think this belongs in the hall of fame.  And it's published in the Gray Lady, of all sources.  Wonders never cease.

While I definitely agree with the idea "both sides" should "wake up" and take on their common enemy (statism), it's unlikely in the extreme.

Far too many (examples abound on this very board) who espouse laissez-faire about economics and RKBA, are adamantly opposed to certain social freedoms and rights and are 100$ OK with the .gov repressing those things they feel are "wrong". And arguments about politics where economic and gun rights are absolute, but arguments that people also should be free to do with their bodies as they wish, or marry whoever they want, even on a "You don't have to like it, just recognize the .gov with the power to enforce those things is arguably WORSE than the people doing them for all of us."-basis... quickly dissolves into rancor.

And on the opposite side, the people who are interested in chemical, sexual, and other personal freedoms, are largely opposed to economic freedom, or RKBA. Or if they're indifferent to them, and not active enemies, they've generally all thrown in their lots with those who are.

And the folks who do cross these boundaries, they're still generally not invested enough in the "other" side of these things to add to the numbers that might impact public policy on them. Someone who advocates for free markets and RKBA, and is sympathetic to drug legalization and gay rights... well, it's hard enough as it is to find the time in living my life and supporting my family to fight for the first two. I'm not going to find any time, or much enthusiasm to fight for the second two. Beyond that, it's difficult to figure out how to support those second two rights without supporting people who are enemies of mine on the issue of the first two rights.

Micro is one of the few posters here who does seem willing to really try and throw his effort behind ALL forms of personal freedom and is actively opposed to all forms of Statism. However, his level, his ratio of representation here, one out of a hundred-odd active posters on APS, is probably about right for that of the world at large too.

Everyone says "stop voting for the lesser of two evils" as the answer to the political Catch-22 liberty-minded voters are put into, but it begs one BIG question. WHAT IF THEY'RE WRONG? What if the "third-way" politician does not have a chance, and you really are "throwing away" your vote? What if it is all going to hell in a handbasket anyway, and I'm better off voting for economic and RKBA freedoms while I can, because gay rights and the ability to smoke a joint on the weekend won't get me through SHTF, when bullets and gold will?

My honest hope is that technology and new social orders (the Internet, nanotechnology, matter printers, post-scarcity) will allow for a shadow society and shadow economy, where people (most of them) live as they wish, and practice the "golden rule", that one day we wake up and find out it's simply is larger and has more strength than the "real" .gov and economy, that it obsoletes it and forces a state of Libertarian minarchy on the world. Imagine, one day going to Washington D.C. and the people most of the Federal buildings are just park rangers and re-enactors, like they are at Colonial Williamsburg...

For right now, my political calculus keeps me voting for the party of gold and guns. I figure if someone comes for my gay neighbor who smokes marijuana, to pack him and his partner off into the cattle cars, I've got the option of shooting back.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2012, 05:03:35 PM by AJ Dual »
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Amazingly even-handed editorial in the NYT
« Reply #4 on: May 29, 2012, 05:13:23 PM »
Quote
And on the opposite side, the people who are interested in chemical, sexual, and other personal freedoms, are largely opposed to economic freedom, or RKBA.

Except, the left-wing of politics is not interested in any of these things.

They're interested in 'sexual freedom' - specifically a specific subset of it, that of LGBT people. Concepts like polyamory/alternate family structures would make leftists break out the SWAT teams PDQ.  Prostitution? Don't pollute our sex with your dirty money!

They're interested -maybe, sort of, kind of - in 'chemical freedom' to do weed, and maybe they'll decriminalize drugs. But the final end-game of 'chemical freedom' would be to abolish regulation of medicine, to allow people to buy every horrific compound ever contrived by pharmaceutical science over the counter - these are the people who freak out over people mixing caffeine in their alcohol.

This is not a coincidence. This is because modern leftism is a collision of two different philosophical forces - the Progressivism of the early 20th century, which wanted to regulate every aspect of human life, and the libertinism of the 1960's. The former is, sadly, stronger.

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RevDisk

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Re: Amazingly even-handed editorial in the NYT
« Reply #5 on: May 29, 2012, 05:17:39 PM »

AJ is entirely correct. I giggle over folks who want freedom for X (their hobby horse), but think freedom for Y (something equally valid) is abhorrent. To each their own, but I often ask them "Why should I help your hobby, if you think mine is not equally as important?"

It's especially hilarious when it's locksport related.

"But only CRIMINALS use those!"
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AJ Dual

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Re: Amazingly even-handed editorial in the NYT
« Reply #6 on: May 29, 2012, 05:35:44 PM »
Except, the left-wing of politics is not interested in any of these things.

They're interested in 'sexual freedom' - specifically a specific subset of it, that of LGBT people. Concepts like polyamory/alternate family structures would make leftists break out the SWAT teams PDQ.  Prostitution? Don't pollute our sex with your dirty money!

They're interested -maybe, sort of, kind of - in 'chemical freedom' to do weed, and maybe they'll decriminalize drugs. But the final end-game of 'chemical freedom' would be to abolish regulation of medicine, to allow people to buy every horrific compound ever contrived by pharmaceutical science over the counter - these are the people who freak out over people mixing caffeine in their alcohol.

This is not a coincidence. This is because modern leftism is a collision of two different philosophical forces - the Progressivism of the early 20th century, which wanted to regulate every aspect of human life, and the libertinism of the 1960's. The former is, sadly, stronger.

Of course, they're just broad and often extremely superficial congruency of politics and personal rights. Just recognizing where they lay as of "right now" in America.

Obviously, taking gay rights as an example, the DNC is seen as the nominal champion of them over the GOP. Just the way it "is".

Despite:

- Obama's lukewarm and opportunistic support, only when he's "got nothing to lose".
- American Blacks nominally being 95% DNC voters or whatever it is, despite their well known antipathy for gay rights, or even the existence of gays...
- Same for blue collar union voters.
etc. etc. etc.

I didn't posit the above as to imply the GOP is avidly interested in overturning the '34 NFA or '68 GCA, or the $5000 IRS/FBI banking transfer reporting threshold either.   =(
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Balog

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Re: Amazingly even-handed editorial in the NYT
« Reply #7 on: May 29, 2012, 07:45:47 PM »
Is it $5000? I thought it was $10,000...
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AJ Dual

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Re: Amazingly even-handed editorial in the NYT
« Reply #8 on: May 29, 2012, 08:17:14 PM »
Sorry, that's international transfers between treaty signatories, even if both are outside the USA  if in USD, if $5000 or more, they all route through the .fed almost always.

Internally, it is $10,000, but what adds up to be $10,000, and how long (up to a year in some cases) it takes to count as "one time" has really gotten tighter.
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