Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: Jocassee on February 24, 2009, 05:29:29 PM
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OK, help me find a backpack to suit my needs. The winning submission gets a prize...that prize being my utmost gratitude. =D
I'm a young guy, and am undergoing a lifestyle change that will get me out of doors and away from LCD screens. I've started going out camping/backpacking when I can, and have another trip coming up in a few weeks. Eventually, with load perfection and stamina, I hope to get to the point where I can make it in the woods for four or five days without resupply.
During the summer, humidity is extremely high and changes of clothing are absolutely essential to comfort and not getting "funned out." That is probably my highest volume item for an extended trip. Water is also important--I guess I should invest in a filter kit of some kind.
On my last trip, I carried a large ALICE pack, the one with the frame. I liked it for carrying necessities but if I were by myself I would need a tent and a sleeping bag. The ALICE set-up does not seem conducive to carrying both, though I did have a bedroll bungeed to the bottom of the frame.
My ideal pack would be surplus unit (or system)--and therefore inexpensive--with enough frame on top to secure a tent, and a bedroll below. Size is not an issue--I am 6' 4" and have no problem with size. It should have a convenient (but not necessarily designated) pocket to store a 4-liter hydration system. It should have plenty of waist and chest support. Mag storage is not an issue since I have a Chinese bandolier for the SKS (also comes in handy for maps, compass, matches, and other piddly stuff you need handy).
A recommendation on a good camel-bak type system would be appreciated as well.
Also please post any web resources you know of that discuss these issues.
TIA!
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Not enough info.
Where are you hiking? What's the weather like? Water resupply?
Moar data plz.
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I'm in upstate South Carolina, with a wealth of hot-in-summer, cold-in-winter, and like as not wet all year round National Forest close by. Water supply is not a problem.
Can you tell I'm new at this? =)
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1st suggestion is to carry only 2 liters of water instead of 4.
Here in AZ, I carry between 2 and 4 liters on hikes. Usually 2 unless I know for certain there is no water resupply. I've carried as much as 2 gallons, once. Won't do it again. When I used to live in Washington state, I only carried a single 1L nalgene bottle and a water purifier. I'd hop across a little stream every hundred yards, though.
Camelbacks are a PITA to refill in the field, IMO. I have an attachment for my nalgene bottle that screws on the top in replacement of the standard lid, converts it into a sipper tube like the camelbacks. But, I can refill it easily with my purifier. I can also easily use that same water to cook with, or just drink from the bottle normally while sitting in camp or taking a rest on the side of the trail. REI carries them as do most sporting goods stores.
If you DO end up using a camelback or hydration bladder, make sure it is tight against your back. Most backpacks have a pocket against the flat of your back for the water to go in. This is to keep the water close to your center of gravity. The further out it is, the more it "weighs."
Weight is a backpacker's enemy. It destroys your knees, saps your energy and robs you of miles you could have walked or feet you could have climbed today. Water is one of the heaviest items you'll carry.
You're going on a recreational hike with an SKS and copious amounts of ammo, as well as home-away-from-home on your back? I'd recommend against it. That's 15 pounds of gear.
You will quickly find that a backpack weighs between 40 and 60 pounds when equipped for a good 4 day trip, depending on gear and weather expectations. You'll need between 4000 and 6000 cubic inches for an internal frame pack.
I don't know anything about surplus external frame systems like you describe, but I do have 3 different packs made by REI that I use. One is a smaller standard backpack, about 2500 cubic inches, that I use for day hikes and such. The second is about 3300 cubic inches and has a reinforced internal light frame. It's good for 2-3 day trips in good weather. The largest is about 5000 cubic inches with a sturdy internal frame. I could probably disappear for 2 weeks with that particular pack. I don't use it often.
I'm getting ready to go for a couple days with some friends to find some open national forest in which to set up some 500-1000 yard shooting lanes. We'll be hiking in about 10 miles with gear for 3 days, M14's and about 150 rounds a piece. I wouldn't be carrying the rifle and ammo unless I knew I was intent on doing some very deliberate shooting once I got back there. I probably won't be collecting my brass for the return trip. I'll be taking the 3300 inch bag to get it all up there.
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Mag storage is not an issue since I have a Chinese bandolier for the SKS (also comes in handy for maps, compass, matches, and other piddly stuff you need handy).
My prediction is that halfway through the hike, you would want to fling that rifle and all the mags into a canyon. That's WAY too heavy, you're going to be hating life with that. Eight, even nine pounds...too heavy!
Weight, always weight.
The heaviest rifle I'd ever taken on a hike was my Rossi Puma 92 16" that is barely more than five pounds. And that was in a lightweight scabbard close to the body on a frame pack.
And backup for water:
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.cabelas.com%2Fis%2Fimage%2Fcabelas%2Fs7_515228_imageset_01%3F%24main-Large%24&hash=15387403cc66b3d08a2fe69ad2968dfe0eae20fa)
Filter straw. $7, 1oz.
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I'd ditch the rifle all together. A decent 4-6" revolver in .357 or .44 mag will serve well, and will weigh a lot less.
Unless you're planning/training for a bug-out SHTF scenario, anyway. In that case, the rifle might be handy and duplicate expected conditions. But for normal hiking? Way too much gear.
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Having done some serious ruck marching for Uncle Sam, I would also emphasize being smart with your load out.
That said, I always jumped or started a ruck march with 6L of water. Also, I always cubed out before I massed out, if you get my meaning.
The LARGE ALICE pack can haul an awful lot of gear. It is not near as large inside as many civvie packs, but you can keep on strapping gear to it until you fall over backwards. You can also get aftermarket larger or "SF" shoulder pads/straps and extra-large kidney pads that make all the difference in the world, comfort-wise.
They are certainly out of favor, but I also like external frame packs (like the ALICE) that allow air flow between the pack and your back. In the store, many of the internal frame packs conform mighty well to my back, but I have so far resisted their siren's call.
As far as the rifle, it is added mass that you'll have to justify to yourself...I care not a whit. I packed M4A1s, SAWs, M240G, & Carl Gustav RRs in the service. It can be done if you've a mind to.
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I'm with jfruser. I've covered more miles with the standard large ALICE pack than anything else. If you are only going out in warm weather, I recommend ditching the tent and going with a GI poncho and five bungee cords (aka a hooch). In addition to a good sleeping bag and ground pad, you should be able to keep yourself out of the wind and rain with very little overall weight and bulk.
I can't stand Camelbaks, and down at Benning we got by with a 2-quart canteen, inverted, with the drinking tube modification.
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A 4-5 day recreational backpacking trip should not require building up stamina. If your whole point is to haul around a bunch of military gear, I guess that's a way to go. Personally, I hike/backpack for the fun of it, and therefore I try to keep it fun. I stick with light-weight gear. My first backpacking trip, which was solo, was four days. I carried two liters of water most of the time--too much. I only needed to carry more than a liter on the last day, when I was in swampier area for several hours. I didn't carry a firearm, but if I was going to, it would be a smallish pistol.
Actually, I started a thread a couple months ago asking for thoughts on ultra-lightweight backpacking and got lots of interesting ideas and suggestions, ranging for ultra light to light to downright heavy. None included a rifle+spare mags though!
Keep the weight lifting in the gym. Backpacking is more fun if you aren't trying to prove that you can haul 70 pounds across the forest.
As for clothes, I have one word: wool.
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My prediction is that halfway through the hike, you would want to fling that rifle and all the mags into a canyon. That's WAY too heavy, you're going to be hating life with that. Eight, even nine pounds...too heavy!
That is about the weight of your standard M16 A2, and for a civilian, Maned, you are surprisingly correct about the urge to toss said weapon. Except the urge comes much sooner than half-way through. :)
'Course, that's if you carry it in your hands, like we did. Strapped to the pack, it should be much more manageable.
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Thanks for all the info.
Several of you have mentioned the weight of the rifle. I will probably hang on to it regardless. I don't want to go so far as to say I'm out playing army but I definitely feel nekkid without the rifle. I would say me and the boys that come along are far short of a "militia"--you can tell this by the proliferation of Bone-stock SKS's and Mosins among us. =D We do usually shoot a good deal out there.
As far as building stamina goes, for this fat city boy, two nights in the SC humidity and I'm bushed. I realize there are other cures for this besides humping stuff through the woods though. Since my back is feeling better I am walking on a regular basis and hopefully will start running soon.
As far as load, I am still perfecting stuff like how much water I need. I'll definitely get a a filtration setup next time so I'm not lugging 36 hours worth. That will cut down on weight and worry about consumption.
Again, thanks for the help. When the thread has run its course I'll save it for future reference.
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Hey, Graves, if you get down to the Abbeville, Greenwood, McCormick counties, drop me a PM.
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You will definitely want some way to carry the rifle, besides just carrying it in your hands all day long. That eight pounds in your hands can really ruin a nice day in the woods. Probably attach it to the pack, somehow.
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You will definitely want some way to carry the rifle, besides just carrying it in your hands all day long. That eight pounds in your hands can really ruin a nice day in the woods. Probably attach it to the pack, somehow.
Got that puppy on my shoulder for quick access for dispatching critters. I found coyote poop all over the place last time I was in those woods.
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Ditch the rifle. If you feel the need for firepower in the woods then grab a good revolver.
If you're on a tight budget you should skip the camelback and investigate an invention we call the water bottle. You'll also need some sort of water purifier.
I've not yet seen milsurp camping gear that worked anywhere near as well as good civie stuff. All of the army-ranger-uber-tacticool-wannabee backpackers I've ever seen have been miserable. That stuff is cheap for a reason.
Watch the sales and you should be able to get a proper pack for no more than you'd pay for a crummy milsurp pack. A good pack will last for years and years, possibly for a lifetime depending on how hard you use it. So invest in a good one.
BridgeWalker is right about the wool clothing.
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Got that puppy on my shoulder for quick access for dispatching critters. I found coyote poop all over the place last time I was in those woods.
How long have you carried it that way? How many hours at a time?
Is that even going to be possible, with a huge ruck on your shoulder?
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Coyotes won't bother you too much. Carry a revolver instead. Maybe if you feel the need to plink, carry a light .22 rifle.
If you're sleeping by yourself, go light. Carry a light weight tarp so you can sit out of the elements but not in your tent, and use a bivy shelter or light 1 person tent for your bag.
One person tent, cheap
http://www.campmor.com/outdoor/gear/Product___23888
Ultra light tarp
http://www.campmor.com/outdoor/gear/Product___22048
As for the alice pack with frame, I've spent some time humping those around. You'd be surprised how much can go into it. Chances are you're taking too much with you to begin with. Your primary concerns will be clean skivvies and clean socks. A premimum on clean socks, buy good socks, don't go cheap. Change them often. You can always carry a little thing of detergent and wash socks in the field.
Layer your clothing. Wicking materials are worth the money. Fleece, wool (and synthetic variations), polypropolene, silk. Nylon shells. Packable windproof rain pants and jacket.
How much are you taking to cook with? Thats probably too much, too. You should be able to cook and eat out of the same container.
While not the lightest, my favorite is to use a metal canteen cup and esbit stove.
http://www.campmor.com/outdoor/gear/Product___81290
I've got a german surplus one from cheaper than dirt.
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If you insist on carrying the rifle, Cabelas (and probably other sporting goods stores as well) sell backpacks that have a rifle carrier built into them. They usually have an external frame and cost around $100-300.
Here's an example: http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/pod/horizontal-pod.jsp?_DARGS=/cabelas/en/common/catalog/pod-link.jsp_A&_DAV=MainCatcat20075-cat20770&rid=&indexId=cat20770&navAction=push&masterpathid=&navCount=2&parentType=index&parentId=cat20770&id=0006342
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I'm with jfruser. I've covered more miles with the standard large ALICE pack than anything else. If you are only going out in warm weather, I recommend ditching the tent and going with a GI poncho and five bungee cords (aka a hooch). In addition to a good sleeping bag and ground pad, you should be able to keep yourself out of the wind and rain with very little overall weight and bulk.
I can't stand Camelbaks, and down at Benning we got by with a 2-quart canteen, inverted, with the drinking tube modification.
If you're cheap, you can buy NBC water hoses for standard USGI canteens. With some creative modifications, as they're intended for your gas mask, it can be used. I prefer just buying proper drinking tubes.
I used to use two pieces of tarp instead of a tent. A roof secured with 550 cord and another piece of tarp on the ground to keep my sleeping bag from getting wet. First time I used the new US Army modular sleep system, I was a convert. I swear to the Gods, it is the best piece of field sleeping gear ever made. Goretex bag, and two nylon bags inside. My first field trial was at an old barracks. &(#)$$#@ heater got stuck in the "on" position and the second floor was well over a hundred degrees. Outside was a foot of snow. We took the snow. Over the course of the night, our bodies slowly melted the snow. We woke up bone dry and plenty warm. Looked like a row of graves, tho. =D
Not sure if any civvies make a reasonable approximation?
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I used to use two pieces of tarp instead of a tent.
That's what I have in my pack to serve as a tent, except it's one big piece instead of two smaller pieces. I use 1/3 of it to make the floor, then the other 2/3's make the roof.
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Hiking and backpacking is one of my hobbies, one that I participate in more than shooting. I've been hiking and camping since Scouts, and I consider myself moderately experienced.
I see a dilemma with your stated goals. One one hand, you say you want to hike more and stay out longer. On the other, you want to use inexpensive mil-surp gear and carry a 8.8lb rifle plus ammo.
Backpackers, by and large, have a less is more philosophy. If you have less weight on your back, you will be able to go farther, get there faster, and do it more comfortably. My all up load for a 1-2 night trip is in the neighborhood of 30-35lbs, and that's taking into account my chronic over-packing.
If you were to take your SKS and the pack that Regolith linked to, which did look like a nice pack for a hunter packing a few miles into a basecamp, you would already be packing 21.6lbs. Start adding in tent, sleeping bag, cooking gear, filter, food, clothing, etc, and you're going to end up with a heavy pack.
If you take the less-is-more route: Pick up a decent pack from REI or similar. I prefer an internal frame, but packing an external frame can be simpler and they also transfer weight a bit better. This Kelty pack (http://www.rei.com/product/780638) from REI weighs 5.5 lbs, and should have plenty of capacity for a multi-day trip. Add a .22 pistol or whatever handgun you feel like, call it 3 lbs for a gun and ammo. Now you're starting at nine-ish pounds, as opposed to over 21 lbs. That right there is like taking six quarts of water out of your load.
By cutting significant weight out of your potentially heaviest items you are going to be able to hike longer and farther, more comfortably, while carrying more food so you can stay out longer.
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As far as websites for information and shopping:
backpacker.com (http://backpacker.com)
rei.com (http://rei.com)
backcountry.com (http://backcountry.com)
steepandcheap.com (http://steepandcheap.com)
thegearjunkie.com (http://thegearjunkie.com)
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I used to use two pieces of tarp instead of a tent. A roof secured with 550 cord and another piece of tarp on the ground to keep my sleeping bag from getting wet. First time I used the new US Army modular sleep system, I was a convert. I swear to the Gods, it is the best piece of field sleeping gear ever made. Goretex bag, and two nylon bags inside. My first field trial was at an old barracks. &(#)$$#@ heater got stuck in the "on" position and the second floor was well over a hundred degrees. Outside was a foot of snow. We took the snow. Over the course of the night, our bodies slowly melted the snow. We woke up bone dry and plenty warm. Looked like a row of graves, tho. =D
Depending on conditions/what the hell I'm doing I carry either:
1. Tarp and a poncho liner.
2. 2 Survival blankets (one for cover/signalling, one for staying warm).
We still had the old mummy sleeping bags when I was in. I'll have to check into the "modular sleep system".
Oh, and I'd also ditch the rifle, they get real heavy real quick. Handgun of some type, much better.
I might also suggest reading Bill Bryson's "A Walk in the Woods" =D
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And Now, The Most Important Advice You Will Receive In This Thread! Hang on to that there dog. Looks like a keeper.
Also, might be a good coyote-deterrent. Do they make packs for dogs? Might as well let the dog carry its own food.
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Internal frame... comercial production, not surplus... go to REI and try some on, even if you aren't going to buy there. Depending on weather I go through 2 to 4 liters a day of water here in MO. Get a pump filter. Low weight, low weight, low weight.. that is your goal. I have my whole 3 day/2 night kit down to under 18 lbs bare bones and 25 lbs. if I go really nuts. No need to carry a rifle unless you are planning on plinking while you are out. No need to carry a pistol really either, but if you feel it neccessary a .38/.357 is fine. If I'm going to be shooting I bring my m4gergy or a marlin 60. I usually don't bring any firearm though.. I travel light and fast. The scariest animals when you are hiking aren't coyotes, bears, lions, tigers or monkeys; they are stray dogs, snakes, and dogs that foolish owners keep off-leash.
If you start getting into heavier weights (over 30 lbs) consider a hiking stick or trekking poles, they are really helpful for the knees.
Do they make packs for dogs? Might as well let the dog carry its own food
Yes, they do.
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On another forum I used to frequent, one of the moderators had a pack for their dog that they took with them on camping trips. It carried all the dog's supplies (dog food) plus some extras.
Pretty good idea.
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If you're cheap, you can buy NBC water hoses for standard USGI canteens. With some creative modifications, as they're intended for your gas mask, it can be used. I prefer just buying proper drinking tubes.
I used to use two pieces of tarp instead of a tent. A roof secured with 550 cord and another piece of tarp on the ground to keep my sleeping bag from getting wet. First time I used the new US Army modular sleep system, I was a convert. I swear to the Gods, it is the best piece of field sleeping gear ever made. Goretex bag, and two nylon bags inside. My first field trial was at an old barracks. &(#)$$#@ heater got stuck in the "on" position and the second floor was well over a hundred degrees. Outside was a foot of snow. We took the snow. Over the course of the night, our bodies slowly melted the snow. We woke up bone dry and plenty warm. Looked like a row of graves, tho. =D
Not sure if any civvies make a reasonable approximation?
Civies have been making bivvy sacks, including gore tex versions, for quite some time. The new army sleep system is just a dumbed down and camo-colored version of the stuff climbers and ultralight hikers have been using for ages.
http://www.campmor.com/outdoor/gear/Category___73075__244
http://www.rei.com/category/4500665
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Maybe if you feel the need to plink, carry a light .22 rifle.
Marlin Papoose. You can forget it's there.
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Civies have been making bivvy sacks, including gore tex versions, for quite some time. The new army sleep system is just a dumbed down and camo-colored version of the stuff climbers and ultralight hikers have been using for ages.
Ooo, thank you very much for the links. I'll have to do a bit more research... But if you say the the army sleep system is "dumbed down", I hope that I'll be quite impressed. The sleep system we used was absolutely wonderful. Comfy, not stuffy, light, compacted lightly. Only thing you needed to add was netting, which it looks like the civvie versions include.
Marlin Papoose. You can forget it's there.
P95Carry from THR was kind enough to let me try his. Very impressive, weight wise. Ugly as sin, of course.
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A bivy sack is fine, but you can probably find a 1 person tent that weighs very close to what the bivy weighs... and it is a lot more comfortable.
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A bivy sack is fine, but you can probably find a 1 person tent that weighs very close to what the bivy weighs... and it is a lot more comfortable.
A nice tarp weighs even less still, offers more space, is more comfortable, and is more waterproof due to its superior ventilation.
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P95Carry from THR was kind enough to let me try his. Very impressive, weight wise. Ugly as sin, of course.
It isn't meant for showing off! =)
I've got a stainless Model 66 in a grey laminate stock to show off with. I have a Papoose to shove in a drybag and toss in a kayak's equipment hatch with the first aid and food. It's a survival rifle that's just far better than the other crappy one that shall not be named. :lol:
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In the heat many prefer external frame packs. The Kelty linked to earlier is a tried and true tested design.
If you are only warm weather backpacking a down quilt will keep you comfortable into the 50's. A typical rule of thumb is choose a bag giving you 10 degrees of cushion below the low temps you expect to see.
Both my sleeping bags are down filled, they are lighter and more comfortable than synthetics, YMMV.
Get either merino wool base layers or decent synthetic base layer underwear, REI and Patagonia both make good stuff. My favorite underwear for hiking in are Ex Officio boxer briefs. I only use Smartwool brand socks to backpack in. Taking care of your feet is of the utmost importance! Your boots are going to be critical, make sure they are well fitted to your feet. A boot that works dayhiking may not work when you load an extra 40lbs on your back.
You are tall so you will need a two man tent most likely as a solo shelter. A lot of taller/bigger guys use tarps for that reason. Personally I want my nighttime shelter to be a barrier from the bugs. I use a two man tent as a solo shelter because I want to be screened in from the bugs. There are a couple solo tents out there that are big enough for me I just haven't dropped the cash on one.
REI sells "Ruff Wear" backpacks for dogs.
Here is a typical gear list http://www.backpacker.com/spring_summer_fall_gear_checklist/gear/12107?page=1 (http://www.backpacker.com/spring_summer_fall_gear_checklist/gear/12107?page=1)
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Personally I want my nighttime shelter to be a barrier from the bugs. I use a two man tent as a solo shelter.
I've found that a good sheet of no-seeum netting works well to keep the bugs off when using a tarp. Usually it's enough just to drape a sheet over the upper half of my body. In really buggy conditions I fold the sheet over and safety-pin it along two sides, forming a big pillow case sort of thing. Slip it over the head end of my sleeping bag.
There's a guy in California that hand makes some great tarps and bivies: www.owareusa.com
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If you insist on carrying the rifle, Cabelas (and probably other sporting goods stores as well) sell backpacks that have a rifle carrier built into them. They usually have an external frame and cost around $100-300.
No need to get a special bag to carry your rifle.
Most packs have 2 water bottle carriers on their sides. If you resign yourself to carrying one water bottle (an easy and convenient task), you can stash the other bottle in one of the carriers. The other empty carrier can hold your rifle's butt, and you can use the external lashing straps of the pack to secure the rifle in place.
This doesn't help for the immediate opportune shot on a yote or defensive need of a rifle... but that's why we have handguns.
FYI, this technique is exactly how I intend to carry my M14 on the trip I mentioned in my earlier post.
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No need to get a special bag to carry your rifle.
Most packs have 2 water bottle carriers on their sides. If you resign yourself to carrying one water bottle (an easy and convenient task), you can stash the other bottle in one of the carriers. The other empty carrier can hold your rifle's butt, and you can use the external lashing straps of the pack to secure the rifle in place.
This doesn't help for the immediate opportune shot on a yote or defensive need of a rifle... but that's why we have handguns.
FYI, this technique is exactly how I intend to carry my M14 on the trip I mentioned in my earlier post.
Just remember to cover the muzzle with something if you carry it barrel-up. I preferred carrying my 92 carbine with the stock above the shoulder.
Purpose made shoot-off covers are good, as are a finger cot or a condom secured with a rubber band...but the latter will get you jokes from people you're with.
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i really don't see the point of the sks. a good revolver is all you need.
pack light, take care of your feet, and keep it simple.
the rest of what i would have said is pretty much redundant at this point.
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Here is a link to a guys website who spends all his spare time out in the NorthWoods. He is usually hiking off trail bushwacking.
I like a lot of his philosophy and have used his gear lists to fine tune my set up. Look on the left side of the page under "Backpacking" and "Bush Skills"
http://therucksack.tripod.com/ (http://therucksack.tripod.com/)